Colleges Ward Off Overinvolved Parents

Parents Forum
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Someone else said, "Why would a student build a relationship with a Dean? It's not like the Dean is going to remember their name anyway." Are you kidding me? Have you never heard of Dean's certification letters?

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<p>Nope. Never heard of that one. What is a certification letter?</p>

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Forming relationships with adults who will be able to help them in their life both at college and beyond is a very important part of college - who do you think writes those recommendation letters for law, medical, biz school?

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<p>The students advisor, who would at least know their name!!</p>

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And how impressive is it when that letter comes from a Vice President or the Dean of Students or the college President?

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<p>So the president of Harvard (for example) knows every students name and is using his or her time writing a letter for all of them, right? That's a lot of paper......and stamps. I'd love to see the chancellor of my school write a letter for me, but unfortunately I don't even know how to pronounce his last name. I think you are a troll that is pulling my leg. You've only made 12 posts since August 2004?!</p>

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It has nothing to do with the ability to live independently. Our D would never dream of "building a relationship" with Dean or any other official, and she has a couple of C's in her transcript due to her reluctance to contact a professor and clear a misunderstanding... That's our introvert, that's her personality, and we did not try to raise her to be somebody else.

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<p>I'm the same way. I don't talk to people unless I have to. I'd certainly talk to a professor/T.A. if I was having a problem with a class. But, who even knows the name of their Dean?!? Like I said, I've had classes where I have talked to the professor, but they never manage to get to know students or know their names because either a) the class is too big, or b) they don't even take attendance. My high school principal(s) didn't even know students names unless they continuously had to be written up for fighting, skipping school, etc. LOL.</p>

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<p>bluealien, please do not spout nonsense.</p>

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<p>I am not spouting nonsense. I have no idea what you are talking about, so please hush.</p>

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<p>Like Alumother, I do not share the viewpoint that 18-year-olds are supposedly fountains of wisdom for other 18-yr-olds. I say this because several more-mature-than-usual 17-yr-old friends of my D have been known to dispense unwise "wisdom" to one another & to my D. But I'll also backtrack on that implication & acknowledge that age 18 may be something of a milestone. I say that only because my heretofore non-independent 18-yr old has "suddenly" (about 3 weeks before what was her 18th birthday) become rather independent in practice & attitude -- with absolutely no prodding or change of behavior on my part. She has merely taken the lead, & I follow. I do think something developmental happens at various stages: we've all seen it happen from infancy on -- again independent of parental action or inaction. My younger D has wanted to be independent from about age 3.</p>

<p>I do not anticipate taking any initiative in my D's college education -- mostly because I assume I will not need to. I do anticipate that from time to time she may seek my advice on a course of study, change in major, selection of grad school, just as she does now. But I also doubt that she will necessarily rely more on my advice than on her own, & on her peers' & advisors'.</p>

<p>As I said elsewhere, I've urged her to come to me in college about anything that could be serious, but adolescents with the best parental relationships sometimes avoid that anyway.</p>

<p>Every parent knows what feels comfortable to self and child.</p>

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<p>I have no idea what you are talking about
The fact that you do not understand me does not invalidate my point.</p>

<p>so please hush
OK. <em>hushes very loudly</em></p>

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<p>What is your point then?</p>

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<p>Curmudgeon, this is just an online discussion - is there really a need for such drama?</p>

<p>Bluealien, a certification letter is something that students are often required to provide as part of a graduate school application. Typically, law school aps. ask for them, but so do many medical schools and selective business schools may also ask for them.</p>

<p>If the Dean doesn't know your student, they get a form letter that basically states that the named student is a member in good standing in the college community and does not have any judicial or incident records against them.</p>

<p>However, if the Dean is certifying a student and they recognize the name, they are free to state the above, and add any positive commentary that they wish to. Obviously, that can make an application stand out very strongly, especially to very selective schools.</p>

<p>These applications require a minimum of 3 letters of rec. A student's advisor writes one. Who writes the other two? Really recognized profs. in their fields don't typically teach a lot of undergraduate courses, so being able to approach program directors, associate deans, etc, can be very helpful. And if they aren't going to post bachelor work, they are going to be looking for jobs and again, having someone high up as a friend is always a benefit. </p>

<p>Student development theory tells us several things; that development will only happen when a student deals with conflict; that the more engaged with staff and faculty a student is, the more likely they are to do better academically; that happiness at college can be measured by how independent they feel. Isn't this what we all want for our students?</p>

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<p>Curmudgeon--Do you think that person is a troll??</p>

<p>What is student development theory?? If this stuff isn't real, you certainly have quite an imagination. I don't really care about being independent, I am doing just great academically without making a dean my best friend, and what is this about having to be in conflict??</p>

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<p>My guess is we should leave them to argue with themselves.:)</p>

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<p>Curmudgeon, again with the drama. I agreed with a poster here, pointed out another's thoughtful comments and added my own 2 cents - something we all as members can do. I am not arguing with anyone, and don't understand why you are so defensive about people having opinions that differ from your own. </p>

<p>Bluealien, Student Development Theory is the basis for the Masters degrees in areas like HigherEd Admin. and College Student Personnel that the majority of admins. at universities have. There is a tremendous body of knowledge regarding how students can best transition to college, and succeed there. For example, take Erik Erikson's theory of conflict: "Erikson's theory consist of eight stages of development. Each stage is characterized by a different conflict that must be resolved by the individual. When the environment makes new demands on people, the conflicts arise. "The person is faced with a choice between two ways of coping with each crisis, an adaptive, or maladaptive way.Only when each crisis is resolved, which involves a change in the personality, does the person have sufficientstrength to deal with the next stages of development" (Schultz and Schultz, 1987). If a person is unable to resolve a conflict at a particular stage, they will confront and struggle with it later in life." </p>

<p>Many other theories build off of this one, the most popular I think being Arthur Chickering, whose development theories (some of them, at least!) center around the ideas of what colleges can do in order to engage students, the biggest suggestions of which are find ways for students to be able to connect with upper level professors and administrators, and ways in which colleges can build classroom buildings to facilitate engagement with those people. For example, classrooms that have small lounge areas outside of them for professors to continue conversations once class is over - even if the conversations have nothing to do with the class, are found to be enormously beneficial for promoting engagement. Students who feel engaged have been found to do better academically, even if that engagement has nothing to do with academics. So if you go bowling every thursday with a professor, and all you discuss at the lanes is bowling, you will likely have a better academic average than a student who has no outside interaction with professors, because you feel more connected to the place in which you are studying. </p>

<p>Personally, I am a big fan of cognitive-structural theorist William Perry, because I am a big snob and he is from Harvard :) His theories on development are about 8 books long - too long for a message board - but basically theorize that we all go through 4 stages of development as we confront conflict, and we must confront conflict as many times as we can in order to grow to our fullest potential. </p>

<p>These are just a few examples of student development theory, in very, very brief description. But hopefully they illustrate the need for young people to confront conflict, to make mistakes confronting conflict, and to keep on confronting conflict, in order to graduate as fully actualized adults, ready for adult life. </p>

<p>You know, so they can get great jobs and pay off all these riduculously huge student loans!</p>

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<p>Why would a professor go bowling with his/her students?? You must be kidding me. They have more important things to do. What kind of conflict are you talking about? A fist fight? I really have no clue what you are talking about, I don't think anyone else here does either, and I definitely do not know what this has to do with the article....</p>

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<p>After posting an opinion here that several of you disagreed sith quite vocally I have watched this latest dialogue but resisted commenting. I think this discussion has clearly pushed buttons for many of us. </p>

<p>My children would say that we are, of course, over involved parents since in their opinion, no one who wasn't would come to this board, let alone spend the hours here that many of us do. And certainly much of what we hope to find here is wisdom that we can pass on to our children. Somtimes specific, such as there is a discussion of that class you were wondering about on your college's board, sometimes general such as roommate issues. I am confident that if there was a way to grade parenting that the parent on this board would be in the top percentile. The thought, caring and intelligence that is displayed here is huge. Nonetheless we have very different ideas about the best way to handle many situations. That is as it should be, we have different persoanlities as do our children. What is successful for one family may not be for another, just as what worked with child 1 often doesn't with child 2. </p>

<p>On this board we offer opinions with incomplete information. Our responses are shaped by our experiences. As a community college teacher I get more than my share of excuses for missing classes, assignments etc. This undoubtedly shapes my interpretations, just as your experiences with your children and their friends or whatever other group of college students you encounter shapes yours. It doesn't make either interpretation right or wrong, neither of us knows the whole story and so each interpretation is potentially accurate and potentially inaccurate. Each interpretaion can offer insight for another student or family depending on their circumstances.</p>

<p>I find the current tone of this discussion disturbing. Perhaps we can take some advice from the link below. I copied it from another thread. In particular the point it makes about electronic communication lacking facial expressions and tone of voice. </p>

<p><a href="http://www.uexpress.com/dearabby/?uc_full_date=20050811%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.uexpress.com/dearabby/?uc_full_date=20050811&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>Well let's see. How about this

weren't you accusing garland of something there? Or is my imagination playing tricks on me?</p>

<p>or this


Could have fooled me and probably garland. I'll ask. And just what opinion of mine would that be ? I don't recall offering my opinion on the topic of this thread (at least not recently .It's 13 pages long. LOL.)? In fact, I fall somewhere in between the two camps. But- I do have an opinion on your repeated attempts to bait me (aw shucks, little ol' you?). I'll share that with you if you'd like. ;) Peddle your wares to somebody else, I ain't buying today. LOL.</p>

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<p>Theotherside, just wondering, but in your opinion, how much more involved with professors should students be in order to follow your psychological theory? Can sleeping with them take the place of bowling? I mean, both are activities outside the classroom. Or would that be overinvolved professoring? </p>

<p>Test smiley worked. :)</p>

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<p>I want to back up Calmom a bit. I don't find what she said was wrong. You have a kid in college who wants certain privileges, freedom to go out, see whom they want, have sex, whatever. With those freedoms comes responsibility and self reliance. All Calmom was saying was that she expects her children to grow with the freedoms and their responsiblitites at the same time, with adjusting all along the way. </p>

<p>I mean if my D wants to hang with her friends, she has to have a plan for getting home, getting there, etc, and as currently, I am legally responsible, I want to know the plans, but I will not set them up.</p>

<p>If we rescue them from a mix-up at scheduling, a bad grade, a bad dormroom too quickly, when will they ever learn to fix the problems themselves? Some problems need a parents intervention if the admin is not taking the student seriously, there is danger, or it is so fouled up that several brains are needed to sort it out.</p>

<p>I had no problems with what Calmom said. With freedom comes responsibility. And with the privilage of going to college, comes the responsibility of getting things done as best as you can. We all get advice, that is a good thing. But we should allow our kids, in fact force them, to try on their own to fix something. And to have all the information necessary in advance so that some problems do not accure. </p>

<p>I worked 20 hours a week for three years in highschool. I had to get myself there, work out my hours, deal with my bosses, negotiate for raises, negotiate for time off, call myself in sick, everything. It was my resposibility. My parents told me they would be there for anything big, but it was my job to handle what I could. I never once had to get mom or dad to come fix anything.</p>

<p>I am by no means a perfect parent and my kids are by no means perfect kids. But my job is to have them do what they can when they can and to push to a degree stepping up. </p>

<p>Sure some kids aren't "ready" by 20, but don't they expect freedoms, to drive, to go out with friends for whole weekends, go to clubs, take the classes they want, and yet, somehow that can't take on responsibilitites of adulthood but want the privilieges of adulthood. Can't have have the freedom and choice without taking the responsibility.</p>

<p>Remember when our kids were learning to walk. If we caught them everytime they fell, they would never learn or would be afraid.</p>

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<p>Curmudgeon, I am really unclear why you want to turn this thread into an argument between the two of us, but since that sort of thread-hijacking isn't my style, and because it seems a shame to see a topic that has generated 13 pages of ideas, opinions and discussion degenerate into this kind of foolishness, I will leave you to it. I don't really understand why it is problematic to you that I have views on this topic and have posted them, but clearly it is, and this kind of back and forth is just unpleasant for everyone else here. </p>

<p>Quickly, to clarify for bluealien - bowling was just an example of an nonacademic event, not to be taken literally. And conflict doesn't mean fight (interesting concept, in light of this thread!) It means to be confronted with a concept, idea, truth, opinion, lifestyle, etc, that is outside of one's current worldview, with growth and development coming from how that conflict is resolved between the interacting parties. Nobody is advocating that college students start fist fights with one another!</p>

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<p>Theotherside, Hint = troll</p>

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<p>bluealien
A troll is inflammatory- while theotherside has posted things that others disagree with-with the intent to be disruptive.
Disagreeing isn't disruptive
even going off on a tangent isn't necessarily disruptive if you can some how bring it back on track
Personally- each situation is really different
someone who is very anxious and happens to find themselves at a huge school may very well benefit from an advocate and if that advocate happens to a be a parent or other adult - well thats for them to work out
My daughter happens to attend a school where she has played paint ball with the president and regulary dines in her profs homes, but she still got into academic trouble ( but not what she couldn't get out of)
If someone really needs a lot of intervention at college, they may be better off taking a break and gaining some confidence and skills in a less stressful environment.</p>

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<p>emerald, you wouldn't get what I meant unless you knew what someone else PMED me earlier.</p>