<p>I've been overinvolved for years. Not as much helicoptering. More like heckling.;) Hasn't always been pretty, I'll admit. As the time for her to fly off gets closer and closer I find myself less willing to jump to place myself , either as a translator or shield, between her and an unknown or negative situation she doesn't want to face. </p>
<p>Now I do confess that if things do turn to total crap (a moment I cannot define but I'll know it when I see it), I will step in again. So far my "plan" (or is it her "plan"? Hmmmmm.) is working and she is invigorated by her victories over life's speedbumps. This "letting go" process that starts in earnest in middle school really starts gaining momentum right prior to take-off, doesn't it?</p>
<p>Cur... part of letting go needs to include the willingness to allow things to go to crap. I think there are some lines that parents need to draw in terms of health & safety: that is, the mom in the article whose son had pneumonia was right to bring him home -- it would be remiss not to step in with a child who is seriously ill; or to intervene if the child seemed depressed or suicidal. </p>
<p>But somewhere along the line our kids need to suffer the consequences of their own failure to handle things properly -- consequences like poor grades or missed opportunities. Unfortunately, the more that parents do for the kids, the less likely the kids are to develop the skills needed to manage well on their own - and by the time they are in college it really may mean missed opportunities. </p>
<p>I realize that if a kid flunks a course or loses a semester, it represents a loss of money to the parents. My approach to that -- being the parent of a kid who messed up somewhat in college -was to draw clear lines: I will contribute X toward further education & no more -- and to put it in writing for my son (no confusion down the road when we both forget what was said).</p>
<p>In a perfect world, parents should not have to become (over)involved. In a perfect world, a student should be able to work through all new problems with a highly responsive school. Problem is we don't live in a perfect world. </p>
<p>While I consider my current school to be superlative in its relation with parents, I hardly believe it to be universal. Drop down a level to the high school scene, and the picture become quite different. I have seen the impact of overinvolved parents and its counterpart: the negative impact of uninvolved parents. It's not a choice between Charybdis and Scylla: schools that do not value parents' involvement do not seem to care more for students' involvement. For the school, control is power. For parents' knowledge is power. There was a time when information was hardly available, no internet, few publications, and ... no College Confidential. As long as things seemed acceptable, school officials could run their little fiefdom without much outside confrontation and keep the door of their ivory door locked. </p>
<p>I could be dead wrong about this, but I sense that parents have become more involved because they may remember longing for their own parents' involvement way back when it was needed. I don't believe that the negatives that exist in our schools are a recent issue; I think that people accepted them more easily. Now, it is easier to read about how things do work in other parts of the country. We can read about accountability and responsibility. </p>
<p>From my vantage point, parents are partners-in-education and bear or share the ultimate responsibility to prepare their children for adult life. Accepting to abdicate this responsibility to others does not have to done blindly. </p>
<p>No matter how we look at it, public and private educators work for us; dealing with parents should not be considered an extra burden. </p>
<p>Businesses that forget to treat their customers correctly are suffering. The relation should not have to be adversarial if the both sides learn to respect each other. The overwhelming majority of teachers and offcial deserve our respect, and so does the overwhelming majority of parents. We should not let the few rotten apples ruin it for everyone. </p>
<p>Xiggi - we're talking about over-involvement here - parents who show up on campus to help kid register for their classes or shop for their books. I have a pretty clear memory of what it was like to deal with the administrations of my high school & college were, in any context -- and I'm pretty sure that things are a lot easier these days, primarily because of better communication via email and the internet. The process was definitely much more cumbersome and time-consuming in my day. We literally camped out overnight in front of the administration building on campus in order to get a place at the head of the line when class registration opened. </p>
<p>So basically, I don't buy the excuse that things have gotten so complicated that kids need more help these days with routine matters. Parents just seem to have a lot harder time letting go... and I honestly don't know why that is.</p>
<p>This whole thread is making me feel pretty good about sending my son off to a summer program for three weeks in another country last year--at age eleven.</p>
<p>Things have gotten both easier and harder for parents. When I was in college, there was no internet, email, etc... but there also were no privacy laws preventing parents from finding out how their kids were doing in terms of health or academics. If the parents of the student who caught pneumonia had called the infirmary, they might have gotten fobbed off with talks of patients' right to privacy. As for academics, don't I remember the case of parents of some elementary kid who sued not to have kids' work displayed under the terms of FERPA?
So parents may feel that they know more about the college, thanks to the internet and the mass mailings, and less about their own kids.</p>
<p>Actually, I don't know how old you are, but FERPA was enacted in 1974. Since I was clearly a minor when I went off to college in 1970, I'm sure that my parents could have gotten information about my grades -- but they never tried to do so. So, I honesty don't think that this is an issue of difference in what parents had a "right" to know. I just don't remember parents in my generation expecting to monitor or manage what their kids were doing in college -- certainly if there were parents like that, they were rare enough to go unnoticed.</p>
<p>Xiggi--I think you expressed yourself beautifully, and I agree with your overall viewpoint. I work at a "last tier" college where parental input is minimal and discouraged, and student empowerment is nil. I'm part of a federal program to counteract that, but I run into opposition all the time.</p>
<p>Calmom--anyone can find those stories of the parent who comes to registration, yadda yadda. Then they're milked beyond recognition into a "trend" by whoever is writing the story. I know I'm not one of them; you know you're not--are we so sure that any discernible fraction of parents are? I'm not ready to think so; it makes me feel uncomfortably "superior."</p>
<p>I did not know that FERPA was enacted in 1974, but it seems to have been enforced more vigorously over the last few years. </p>
<p>My parents never asked what courses I was taking let alone what grades I was getting, but I'm sure there have always been parents who have tried to reward their kids for getting good grades, as was reported in another thread. And I suspect that when parents are forking $200k, they want to monitor their investment a tad more closely than when it cost a fraction of that amount. There are also so many new ways of managing education dollars. In my days, there was only the college bookstore. Now, there is Amazon and all those used books sites.</p>
<p>calmom ;) when I was discussing "total crap" (when I would step back in) , I was distinguishing that situation from one involving just run of the mill "crap". IOW, total modified the word crap, heightening or exacerbating it's "crappiness" from the simple "crap" to the more specific and clearly more serious "total crap". Had I said simply "crap" I would understand someone mistakenly thinking I was still too involved. I admit that I could have used language that was less colloquial and more direct. I should have said the situation had "gone to Hell in a handbasket" and I doubt anyone would have misunderstood.</p>
<p>calmom, I understand and agree with the basis of your post. Just having fun with words.</p>
<p>Re: the parent who registered for their kid... I suspect we don't know both sides of the story. It is quite possible that this student needed/wanted to get into certain classes, and may have been at a distinct disadvantage if he registered later, when he returned from his travels. If my son was travelling and asked me to go stand in line and help get him into the classes he wanted, I'd gladly do it if I could. I'd just be sure to have a letter in hand from my s. explaining what I was doing and why. Either that or I'd suggest our younger s. go be a stand-in for him. It's less obvious. I suspect that may happen more often than we know. It just makes for better press with the image of a pushy parent standing in line with the college kids. With what school costs these days, I'd hate for my s. to get closed out of classes he wants, or miss out on required classes he needs to take in a certain sequence, or that are only offered in certain semesters. What's wrong with a stand-in?? I don't think the mom in question did this without the kid's permission. It's not like she told her kid to go home and take a nap while she stood in line and registered for him so he'd be in the classes she wanted him to take. She was being helpful. I don't see a problem with this. </p>
<p>There is a bit of a double standard here. Last year, my s. was ill and in the hospital shortly before he had to leave for his freshman year. I emailed the contact person for his freshman orientation, letting them know, the situation and that he might be arriving late. I gave general info about his illness, told them that I'd keep them informed of his status, but said that he was over 18 and that he didn't like me speaking for him too much, and that he preferred to discuss his issues and needs personally. He is mature and responsible, and would let them know what was going on and what he needed. He just preferred to be his own spokesperson. I was diplomatically asked by the contact person for more information, so that they could be on the lookout for any potential problems. I certainly do not mind doing what is best for my s., but I was trying NOT to be an overinvolved parent, and was pushed for more information. I understand their position, and I would certainly never put them nor my child in a dangerous situation, but it'd be easier if the "rules" were balanced. I could have used the "privacy" curtain, but I'd never do that. They are there to help my s. and protect themselves and all their students. I fully understand that. It is helpful to have a cooperative, working relationship. I have a comfortable relationship with the secretary at the residential college and the House parents (College Masters) that I got to know over parents weekend. I don't know them super well, but I'd be comfortable contacting them if I needed to. I also sent a card to the dorm secretary on secretary's day. Things like that really are appreciated.</p>
<p>Hazmat, don't joke! I actually know a poor girl from my high school whose mother attended community college with her. Is attending community college with her, I should say. She enrolls in all the same classes as her daughter. (I'm not too terribly surprised; this woman stayed at our high school all day long while the girl was in school. Eventually, the administration just gave the woman jobs to do.) And no, the girl is not handicapped in any way, mentally or physically (well, probably emotionally...). </p>
<p>I live with my mom since we live near my college and, given our finances (she and my dad got divorced the summer between high school and college, and he refuses to contribute a penny), it would just be impractical for me to rent an apartment a few miles away. She does a remarkable job of not getting involved in my affairs. The only thing she does is once in a while she'll buy my books with me; I beg her to because I love it -- nothing beats the convenience of having mom pull out the checkbook right then and there. :-) Some Freshmen look at me like they would be mortified if their moms came along, but I am so proud of my mom and proud of the sacrifices she makes so I can go to school, and I'm proud to be seen with her. Of course, she's so low-key that over-involvement would never be an issue, which makes it really easy for me to say that, but still! :-)</p>
<p>My parents believed (and that generation overall believed) that the student earned the grades, and was responsible for behavior, etc. in school. Therefore, there was little or not involvement in college, as there was little involvement in HS. However, our world has changed, and schools now want parental involvement at the HS level. INVOLVEMENT, not interference, SUPPORT, not challenges. However, many in this generation have taken this attitude to mean that they should do everything for the child, and save them from all consequences for their actions. The kids I have the most problems with in HS are children of these parents. Trust me - kids learn early on that they can do anythign they want, and there will be no repercussions, and mom and dad will scream so loud htat nothing will happen. I actually had a parent ask me what did I do to make her son swear at me? It was my fault!!! There is one mother who yells "Lawyer coming" every single time she doesn't like something. (This has been going from from K, and we at the HS are just waiting for this child as a 9th grader. Almost every teacher has been threatened in the child's 9 years in school.) This woman will not give it up. Calmom, I agree with you. This attitude has made for many kids who are unable to survive in this world. They know if they mess up, mom and dad will come running. But you can't do that with the kid's first real job. Boss won't want parent calling at work to make sure the shild completes the assignement on time, or payroll to make sure the check is right. But how can the child really learn unless he learns life's lessons. Doing it all for him doesn't work. Now, I don't mean that a parent shouldn't intervene in an emergency or safety situation, but our kids need to learn how to be adults and take on adult responsibilities. As to the argument about colleges asking for parental involvement because of their costs - you don't need to send your child there. There are many less expensive schools. Hopefully, your child chose one where he will be able to function. When I was growing up, my mother was overprotective. When it came time for college, I found one away from home that we could afford. My mom cried, and said I couldn't go. My dad said, go and get away from your mother so you can grow up and learn to take care of yourself. Now, many of us had parents who were immigrants and did not speak English well, or parents who didn't go to college, so they didn't interfere because they didn't know the language or the system. But we went to college, and know what mistakes we made, and want our kids not to make the same ones. What we don't realize is that we learned from ours, and our kids have to learn from theirs, as well.</p>
<p>Overinvolved parents......When I moved my daughter into her college it was ME who drove her 1000 miles and moved her in because Hus got sick and couldn't go. I remember they put us all in a room before the move in a gave us a 'now, now lecture, it's time to make the break'. When I reached for a hand cart I got this, 'no it's not time yet comment, must listen' by some upper classmen. Well, I never got that hand cart and my back just about broke in two trying to carry everything from the car to the dorm room.No upper classmen helped us. Threw my back out for a week from all the heavy carrying. I still resent being lectured to like a 4 year old by a group of kids having their tuition footed by their parents.</p>
<p>I'm wondering if the pendulum is swinging too far in the direction of "warding off parents". I still generally monitor from afar, and will jump into situations that are rapidly disintegrating. e.g. when attending orientation with my s a few years ago. The first years register for all their classes at orientation while parents were off being "entertained". My h and I wandered back to the advising office to meet up with s for the "goodbye", and he was sitting there with a "deer-in-the-headlights" look, listening to the advisor telling him there was no way he could double-major in computer science and music (he had a partial music scholarship). "There's no way to make your schedule work," the advisor was saying. "You have to choose between the two." That's about all I needed to hear. I wandered up (ignoring the "what the h are you doing here" look from the advisor), and said "We CAN make this work." I looked at the course list and worked it out. Everything was suddenly working and fine. There ARE times to jump in.</p>
<p>I don't consider my parents overinvolved at all- they never saw my applications, never asked if they were out on time, never read my essays, never limited where I applied, and never said a word about it until I asked what they thought. They were very good about writing checks for application fees despite not knowing anything about what I was doing.</p>
<p>That was the way I wanted it, they knew it, and they respected it. They did, however, refuse to fill out my financial aid forms for me, point-blank. They were happy to do it with me, but while my friends' parents filled out and mailed theirs, I had to fill out my own. The reasoning was "this is your education, and you're going to put in the work." I learned a lot from doing it, and I no longer resent that my parents weren't willing to just do it for me. </p>
<p>All this said, I was planning to have them come to the bookstore with me. To me, at least, it isn't over-involvement at all (I know and they know that I know how to buy books)- just one last way for them to be my parents before they have to let go, and I don't mind at all.</p>
<p>People;Good story. And now when you go to these college presentations they tell the kids 'you can double or triple major if you want'. I have found that advisors frequently don't know that much about the kids they are advising and their majors. Oftentimes, they just follow the guidebook.I have seen folks sass my kid, and I just won't take that myself. I stand up for my rights and speak authoratively. But if I do so for my 17 or 18 year old, like butt in, they will roll their eyes and say, 'it's okay mom.' So, I 'm out of it now. I must remember, things do not affect them the same way they affect me. I have years and years of experience, can size up situations and people. But my sons, this is all new to them and although they may make some mistakes, they seem totally capable of handling themselves.</p>
<p>Xiggi;In High School, Overinvolved parent=child's name spelled right in graduation program .
Underinvolved parent=child's name not spelled right in graduation program.</p>
<p>People & BHG - And we care more about our kids than any GC could. Also, our kids roll their eyes because often they need to project the image that they can handle matters, even tho we know that often times they can't. Again, the strive to independence. Usually when DS rolls his eyes, I smile inside knowing that a "crash and burn" is about to occur. So, I step aside and ready up the fire hose. A learning experience has occurred. OB</p>
<p>Just a tiny note of pride... My s just finished his 1st year at NYU. He is beginning work on his minor this coming fall. I asked him (after the fact) if his advisor had been familiar with that particular minor. He said "not really, so I emailed the Dept. Chair to make sure I was on the right track." This is so unlike the son I remember from high school. It feels great to be able to back off and let him work it out. (This after years and years of being overinvolved).</p>