Columbia or Barnard?

Colleges and Universities A-Z Columbia University
41

<p>garland: Well, we know your son is talented.</p>

<p>My D loves work-study in the Provosts's office because she feels part of the school and meets prez, profs, hears how decisions are made. She likes the kind of work, which is quite varied, and has relationships with a quite a few professors whose offices she has moved and helped set up.</p>

<p>She DOES earn more money as part of Barnard's babysitting service, but I don't think she is getting any resume skills there.</p>

<p>I don't think her time is being inefficiently used at all. She sees her work-study as a kind of EC because she is getting background and training. She wants to do law, but if she takes a gap year she is looking forward to a job at Barnard while she regroups.</p>

<p>There is so much judgment on this board. There many ways to realize personal goals.</p>

42

<p>Clarification: I don't know what my d. is currently paid for work study; I haven't asked. I think it was $7/hour *last year<a href="Fall%202006">/I</a> because I saw her W2, but I wouldn't be aware of any increases in 2007. If it has gone up to $10 an hour... that would be great.</p>

43

<p>"My S is in his senior year, and passed up workstudy for poker (at which he's "earning" a hundred or more a week.) "</p>

<p>Garland: Does your son have any work-study/ internship openings?</p>

44

<p>My S has bartended, tutored, and now is a TA. But a real benefit of work study can be a job that brings you in contact with a prof in your field. When he asked about summer research in his department, for example, he was told the only paid possibilities were work study. When he realized belatedly that he was likely to go on to grad school, he really had to scramble to find ways to have enough personal contact with profs so that they could write him those all important recs. Beyond that, a work study job with a prof means you may develop more of a mentoring relationship, an additional advisor who may be much more involved with you than your assigned advisor.</p>

<p>Back to the Barnard classes. Yes, it is not a typical women's college. However, I believe Barnard profs keep in mind that part of their role is to mentor women, especially in male-dominated fields. For example, my S took a math class (math is a combined Columbia/Barnard department) taught by a Barnard prof. For many of the students, it was their first proof-based math class, and he said that the prof really went out of her way to help the women who sought help. Similarly, the description of the Barnard writing classes in the NYT article: an emphasis on the tradition of producing women writers, a "you can do it, look at our alumnae who did it," attitude that may be very nurturing for an 18-year-old.</p>

45

<p>OK, some grab-bag responses:</p>

<ul>
<li><p>Calmom, in order to pay for Columbia, I had to take a full-time job during my senior year of high school (complicated, don't ask), and take another gap year off, still working full-time, cash out stock options and retirement accounts, and save 95% of what i made. I paid every dime for Columbia my first 2 1/2 years, writing a (painful) check for ~$3700 or so every month. Believe me, I sure did value my time spent in class. So in a sense, I know what it is to earn your way through Columbia, but in another sense I didn't have to carry work-study jobs in order to eat.</p></li>
<li><p>Being an egg donor as an ivy league student is incredibly lucrative. Yes, it's invasive and requires surgery, and the health risks are nonzero (albeit low). But for someone with the genetic makeup to get into Columbia, rich new yorkers are happy to shell out $15-25k or even more. That right there is life-changing money to a student. I would've jumped at the opportunity if I were a girl. The equivalent male, um, procedure, isn't nearly as high-value.</p></li>
<li><p>C02's larger point, that there are much more lucrative ways to earn cash while in school, is well taken. For students as smart and resourceful as those at CU, all of those options that he lists are excellent. There are $40-50/hr+ tutoring gigs everywhere, with flexible hours, freelance computer work can pay just as well, and bartending (with its tax-free advantages) can be even more ridiculous if you land a good gig (and are, you know, attractive). One of my current roommates funds his tech startup by bartending at private parties one night per week, bringing home $1000-1400 for just sundays each week, and similar (if lesser) amounts for other nights if he needs the cash. If your daughter is being paid $7-10/hr for a job, no matter how much she enjoys it, she's selling herself short. I'd dig graves if i were offered 4x what i'm making now; if it was the difference between barely eating, vs being able to go out in NYC, i'd have the same attitude.</p></li>
<li><p>Someone's earlier point about the nurturing atmosphere of the girls-only parts of Barnard is spot on. A bunch of current and former BC students that I know all speak glowingly about having a little enclave that's their own, and having lived in a Barnard dorm for 2 years I definitely felt that atmosphere. There are also many Columbia guys who actually prefer Barnard girls to Columbia girls, as a group, because (DANGER: generalities here, people) they find BC girls to be more confident and more 'chill'. One of my current roommates was runner up in the "Barnard fan of the year" contest, and has</a> the tshirt to prove it.</p></li>
</ul>

<p>Yeah, that's all I got. Time to GBTW.</p>

46

<p>Great info here about Barnard and Columbia (college and U) and about work study verses other more lucrative ways to earn $$. </p>

<p>The point someone made about resume/rec building is one large reason why my d now has that second job (grading lab books)...and she does love the experience of working in the CAO and being very involved with the Urban NY program.</p>

<p>Point is, there are lots of paths to the same goal which is an incredible educational experience at Barnard OR CC/SEAS.</p>

47

<p>Denzera -- I was nodding along to the excellent points in your post until I got to your casual comparison of sperm and egg donation. They are NOT comparable. Men make sperm all their reproductive lives. Women do not keep making eggs. If something goes wrong, a female's fertility can be permanently damaged. Men are not given drugs so they can produce sperm, women are given massive doses of hormones. Men do not have a surgical procedure, even a minor one. This is such an important issue that I include this off the NY health department website, though it's long:

[quote]
These are the standard steps in the process and the risks:</p>

<p>Stopping your normal cycle: You may be prescribed a medication for one or more weeks to temporarily halt your ovaries' normal functioning.</p>

<p>This makes it easier to control your response to fertility drugs. A doctor or nurse will give you an injection or instruct you about how to inject the medication daily at home.</p>

<p>The risks: The medications can cause hot flashes, vaginal dryness, fatigue, sleep problems, body aches, mood swings, breast tenderness, headache, and/ or vision problems.</p>

<p>Stimulating egg production: In a normal menstrual cycle, one egg matures and, at ovulation, is released from an egg-containing sac (called a follicle) on the ovary. In egg donation, the goal is to obtain several mature eggs. You will be prescribed medication to stimulate your ovaries to mature more eggs than normal (called "controlled hyperstimulation"). The medications are similar to the hormones that your body produces, but at much higher doses. These medications must be injected (either under your skin or into a muscle). Treatment will start on a specific day of your cycle and continue for about ten days. You will be shown how to inject the medications. If you are unable to inject yourself reliably, you will need someone else to do it for you.</p>

<p>The risks: You may develop soreness, redness or mild bruising around the injection site. You may experience mood swings, tender breasts, enlarged ovaries and mild fluid retention. Occasionally, the medications cause more hyperstimulation than intended (known as "ovarian hyperstimulation syndrome," or OHSS). This will cause fluid retention and swelling of the ovaries. In mild OHSS, you may have abdominal pain, pressure and swelling. This should go away after your next period. In moderate OHSS, you may require careful monitoring, bed rest and pain medication. Severe OHSS is rare but can cause serious medical complications, including blood clots, kidney failure, fluid build-up in the lungs, and shock. In rare cases, hospitalization is necessary and the condition can be life-threatening. One or both of your ovaries may have to be removed. The risk of OHSS decreases after the eggs are retrieved.</p>

<p>If you show signs of OHSS before the eggs are ready to be retrieved, the doctor may decide that it is too risky for you to keep taking the hormones. You must stop using the medication and the cycle will be canceled.</p>

<p>If you decide, for some reason, not to undergo egg retrieval after having completed fertility drugs, you increase your risk of OHSS. Very rarely, an enlarged ovary will twist on its stalk and cut off its blood supply. This painful condition requires immediate surgery and the ovary may have to be removed. Also, very rarely, a woman has an allergic reaction to fertility drugs.</p>

<p>You can become pregnant during the cycle, if you have unprotected intercourse. This could occur if some of the eggs are released before retrieval, or if the doctor is unable to retrieve all of the mature eggs. There is a chance that you could become pregnant with twins, triplets or quadruplets. You must abstain from intercourse or use effective barrier contraception. Ask the doctor about restrictions on intercourse during the donation cycle.</p>

<p>The long-term risks of fertility drugs are unknown. A few studies suggest that fertility drugs might increase a woman's risk for developing ovarian cancer later in life. Others do not show this link. At this time, no one knows for sure.</p>

<p>Monitoring your progress: During the donation cycle, you must have frequent blood tests and ultrasound examinations to track the developing eggs and to see how you are responding to the hormones. Based on these tests, you will be told how to adjust the dose of medication. The ultrasound exams involve inserting an ultrasound probe (about the size of a tampon applicator) into your vagina so the doctor can see the growing follicles on your ovaries.</p>

<p>When the time is right, you will receive a final injection of another drug to prepare the eggs for retrieval. This injection is given shortly before egg retrieval.</p>

<p>The risks: Blood drawing can cause mild discomfort and there is a chance you will develop a bruise in the area where the needle was inserted. Ultrasound examination may be slightly uncomfortable but has no known risks.</p>

<p>Removing the eggs: The eggs will be removed from your ovaries in a minor surgical procedure called transvaginal ovarian aspiration. An ultrasound probe will be inserted into your vagina. A thin needle attached to the probe will be inserted into each follicle. Using suction, the egg and liquid inside each follicle are removed. You may be given painkillers, sedatives or anesthesia during the retrieval, which lasts about 30 minutes. When all the eggs have been retrieved, you will recover for a few hours before going home. You must have someone drive you home. Afterwards, you will need to rest for the day. Often, it takes several days of restricted activity to recover.</p>

<p>The risks: After the needle is inserted into the ovary, there may be bleeding. Although rare, it is possible to damage or puncture the bowel, bladder or nearby blood vessels. In the unlikely possibility of severe internal bleeding or serious damage to the pelvic organs, major abdominal surgery may be needed.</p>

<p>To prevent infection, you may be given antibiotics. If infection occurs, it may affect your own future fertility. Ask the doctor about the risks of all medications used during retrieval.</p>

<p>Follow-up care: You should be given clear instructions about what to do if you need medical attention. In some programs, donors return for one or two check-ups. You may also be scheduled to meet with a counselor.</p>

<p>Many programs do not provide follow-up care, and it is normal for a donor to feel let down after her intense involvement in the process ends.</p>

<p>Many women are concerned that giving up some of their eggs may reduce their ability to later become pregnant. If there are no complications, being an egg donor should not affect your later fertility. However, if you develop serious complications, involving bleeding, infection, or loss of an ovary, it may jeopardize your ability to conceive.

[/quote]
</p>

48

<p>Wow, I didn't expect my tongue-in-cheek comment about donating your genes to cause such controversy.</p>

<p>And a clarification to my point about work study jobs -- while most work study jobs are useless/inefficient, I don't think they <em>all</em> are.</p>

<p>If you're taking a job because it's going to help your resume / career prospects / grad school prospects and it just happens to be a "work study job"... that's totally fine. That's the situation sac described with his son's work study job in a science lab.</p>

<p>But most work study jobs are mind-numbing, dead-end jobs that most Columbia students (save a few athletes) are vastly overqualified for. This includes sitting at a building entrance swiping CU IDs, any sort of clerical / paperwork / secretarial job, doing b**chwork for a professor that's essentially glorified secretarial work, and so on.</p>

<p>$7 / hr simply doesn't add up very fast, anyway.</p>

49

<p>Thanks, Sac for that observation. Between that and Denzera's reference to "if you land a good gig (and are, you know, attractive)" -- I think there is a very different set of priorities. </p>

<p>Aside from the health issues, reputable organizations want donors who are at least age 21 (see <a href="http://nylifespring.com/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://nylifespring.com/&lt;/a> - my d. is 19) -- and the going rate is about $8000 - not the $15-25K Denzera imagines. I think Denzera's characterization of bartending income is equally inflated; a claim of $1000-$1400 for one day a week sounds to me like a little more than bartending going on. (Given my legal background, I am pretty savvy about people who claim to make $X from X activity.... legit cash jobs provide a good cover for activities that are not so legit). </p>

<p>In any case this has gotten to be a very long, drawn out discussion in response to my simple observation that my d. takes classes on the Columbia campus 5 days a week, and that she would probably prefer an early morning rather than mid-day class on Fridays so that she would have the rest of the day free -- comments which assumed were innocuous and never anticipated would prompt a debate. </p>

<p>To Denzera: it is obvious that we have very different values, reflected in your comment, "If your daughter is being paid $7-10/hr for a job, no matter how much she enjoys it, she's selling herself short. I'd dig graves if i were offered 4x what i'm making now". I and my kids prefer to find work that is emotionally fulfilling, provides intellectual challenge, and an outlet for our creativity. Sometimes that pays well; more often it doesn't. It seems that we Barnard moms all have daughters who have work-study jobs that they find enjoyable and rewarding, which seems like reason enough to stick with them.</p>

50

<p>
[quote]
I and my kids prefer to find work that is emotionally fulfilling, provides intellectual challenge, and an outlet for our creativity. Sometimes that pays well; more often it doesn't. It seems that we Barnard moms all have daughters who have work-study jobs that they find enjoyable and rewarding, which seems like reason enough to stick with them.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Ask yourself whether she's really intellectually challenged, emotionally fulfilled, and being creative at whatever crappy $7/hr job she has. Are you and her just rationalizing and/or making the best of a bad situation? Would she not be more challenged/fulfilled if she had, say, a tutoring job that paid far more?</p>

<p>
[quote]
To Denzera: it is obvious that we have very different values, reflected in your comment, "If your daughter is being paid $7-10/hr for a job, no matter how much she enjoys it, she's selling herself short. I'd dig graves if i were offered 4x what i'm making now".

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Isn't Denzera in i-banking? That's already like digging graves ;)</p>

<p>
[quote]
I think Denzera's characterization of bartending income is equally inflated; a claim of $1000-$1400 for one day a week sounds to me like a little more than bartending going on.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Seems right to me. Remember, the one day a week would likely be a prime-time weekend shift where you're able to maximize your income. In a 7 hour shift, making $150-200 / hr at a bar in NYC isn't absurd by any means. The customer base is never-ending at many places, and people often tip more than $1/drink if they're paying NY prices. And then add in a couple lavish tippers.</p>

51

<p>
[quote]
Isn't Denzera in i-banking? That's already like digging graves

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Love it.</p>

<p>As to bartending, Columbia students bartend private parties through the student-run bartending agency, which you can do at age 18. I don't know if any actually work in bars. My S had a few jobs with great tips, but he had many that did not tip well at all. (And, I happen to think my son is attractive.:) ) He once gave a hilarious description of an upper East Side party where besides pouring drinks, he helped set up, serve, and clean up, all while eyeing the vast amount of food left over, and the hostess sent him home with a $20 tip and not even a doggy bag. A lot of people using the Columbia bartending agency are doing it because they're cheap. Therefore, they are not necessarily great tippers. He also had a difficult time getting his checks from the agency in any timely fashion. </p>

<p>In any case, it is true there are many ways to earn money at Columbia and in NYC besides work study. I was just pointing out some of the advantages of work study besides wages.</p>

52

<p>calmom: I'm with you. And D even does volunteer work! Oh the horror! She does make $50.00 + + cab fare often by babysitting, but she also treasures her Provost job. I think no apologies necessary, and what's it to anyone else? She's happy, I'm happy, Barnard's happy, she pays for all her NYC living expenses, what else is there? </p>

<p>BTW: I am a full-time tenured college professor. I probably earn peanuts compared to what I could in industry. So what?</p>

53

<p>my two cents on the topic of work study jobs: I agree with C02 that they are nothing to write home about and that most of them are mind numbing and useless...mine sure as hell was! But I do disagree with the assertion that you can apparently make exorbitant amounts of money while in college. First of all those jobs (bartender, computer whatever) require skills that alot of people do not have or that take time and cost money to obtain. Also, I didn't feel qualified to tutor anything until i was a senior and in my opinion most people aren't qualified to tutor anything until junior yr of college unless it's like SATs or HS....but then again freelance tutoring is a pain in the ass administratively if you know what i mean. </p>

<p>However making $7 an hour as a junior is definitely short changing yourself no matter how much you think she is supposedly "enjoying" the job. I'm not going to claim that your daughter could be making $50 an hr or over a thousand in a day but when I was a junior i was getting a bit under $12 in my crappy work study job. Also, at columbia and barnard most work study jobs start at around $10.....I suggest your daughter find another job even if it is less "enjoyable"....it won't be digging graves but she can def get more money for her time. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Isn't Denzera in i-banking? That's already like digging graves

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I like to tell my brother it's more like pushing money around and killing children (he's an i-banker)</p>

<p>And last i heard denzera was unemployed :P</p>

<p>
[quote]
My S is in his senior year, and passed up workstudy for poker (at which he's "earning" a hundred or more a week.)

[/quote]
</p>

<p>oh? does he play on campus or at poker clubs? if he plays on campus i might actually know him.</p>

54

<p>
[quote]
And D even does volunteer work! Oh the horror!

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Doing volunteer work is totally different than doing a $7/hr work study job. People volunteer for reasons like feeling good about yourself, having something to put on a resume, making connections / networking, and feeling like you've contributed to something you care about. Doing clerical work at a work study job doesn't really have any of those benefits.</p>

<p>
[quote]
BTW: I am a full-time tenured college professor. I probably earn peanuts compared to what I could in industry. So what?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Yes, but you're making an upper middle class salary for doing something you probably enjoy and which gives you essentially 100% job security. $7/hr is worthless money.</p>

55

<p>
[quote]
I didn't feel qualified to tutor anything until i was a senior

[/quote]

Shraf, my S signed up with the Columbia tutoring and translation service, and tutored middle school and high school kids for $30 an hour. I'm sure you were qualified to do the same. Anyone in the city can contact the service for a tutor. He did, also, tutor some college students, but mostly friends who knew he had done well in some particular course, asked him for regular tutoring, and insisted on paying him.</p>

56

<p>CUTTA is skechy and the work is so sporadic from what i hear. And yea, anyone at columbia is qualified to do the same but i needed steady income that was more than like a couple of hrs of work a week. FYI i tutored bio (which is a really hard class at columbia) for GS students @ 18 bucks an hr....i would get paid regardless of whether or not they showed up and it was a stable 9-10 hrs a week.</p>

57

<p>Shraf & Columbia2002 -- please read my post #42 again. I said I didn't know what my d. gets paid for work study. Also, Shraf, my d. is a sophomore, not a junior.... so I don't need the lecture on what a "junior" ought to be making. </p>

<p>Also, if you guys are an example of the attitude of most Columbia students, then it makes me very glad my kid is at the school on the other side of the street. I said my daughter "loves" her work-study job. I know that because last year she told me that again and again, and she made a point of keeping the same job again this year. Churchmusicmom and Mythmom also report that their daughters really enjoy their work study jobs. Maybe the work-study jobs at Barnard are better, I don't know -- apparently our daughters all have jobs they love whereas you Columbia students seem to find that your work study jobs are "crappy". Maybe part of the whole woman's school empowerment thing means giving them all interesting work-study jobs, I don't know. </p>

<p>But it really is not your place to judge whether she ought to have that job, or the merit of what she does on the job -- especially since I never mentioned exactly what her job duties entail. She has had drudge jobs that she hated-- so I assume if she tells me she likes a job it must be something that she finds interesting. </p>

<p>Again: I didn't ask for a debate about the merits of her job. I said she had a Friday class and she would like a schedule that allowed her more time for the job that she loves, so she can earn the full amount of her work study allotment.</p>

58

<p>Alright, so I think calmom brought up a very good point that needs to be addressed here and that is: my posts aren't for you! Thats wonderful that you told your daughter's story (thats second hand information btw) but denzera, C02 and myself just use those to frame our first hand information for high school kids, incoming students and current students....we aren't here to judge you or your son or your daughter.....i really don't care if you even bother reading my response and I clearly just mixed up your daughter with churchmom's because you know, it happens when you are responding to 15 or 20 posts at once....why do you have to take it personally and get all offended....if your daughter is happy wonderful for her I am just letting everyone else know what is out there. </p>

<p>Also, one other thing you must realize is that when alumni tell stories or share their experiences they are not only sharing their own experiences they may be sharing those of several people at once. In our four years at columbia we didn't live in a bubble....we knew alot of people who told us about their work study jobs and various other things and yes some of them were barnard girls! So we share their experiences with our own. Which leads me to this: </p>

<p>
[quote]
Maybe the work-study jobs at Barnard are better, I don't know -- apparently our daughters all have jobs they love whereas you Columbia students seem to find that your work study jobs are "crappy". Maybe part of the whole woman's school empowerment thing means giving them all interesting work-study jobs, I don't know.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>my girlfriend (a BARNARD sophomore) was working a BARNARD work study job last year as a freshman making $10 an hour and thought it was silly, mind numbing work but she appreciated the extra cash so she stuck with it that year but didn't go back this year. However, this year she got a $12/hr work study job at COLUMBIA which is slightly less silly but it still isn't what she wants to do in life or anything. Work study is just supposed to earn you a bit of money....and for those current and future columbia or barnard students you might wanna look past a work study job where you make $7/hr since you will find jobs that pay more, even as an underclassman. </p>

<p>
[quote]
if you guys are an example of the attitude of most Columbia students

[/quote]
</p>

<p>what is this "attitude" exactly? you mean we spend time on a website giving advice to incoming and current students and talking up our alma matter even though we don't have to but we just want to help out and are proud of our school.....is that the attitude you are referring to? .....or is it that we actually think columbia students' time is worth a bit more than 7 bucks an hr and somehow this makes us bad ppl?</p>

<p>
[quote]
But it really is not your place to judge whether she ought to have that job, or the merit of what she does on the job -- especially since I never mentioned exactly what her job duties entail.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>again, as i said before ....don't take this personally, we really do not respond to these threads for your sake at all and none of us said anything specific in relation to your daughter etc so don't try to put words in our mouths.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Again: I didn't ask for a debate about the merits of her job.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>if anything i think this thread is very helpful to incoming and current students.....i mean you presented your daughter's experience and we all presented our experiences and the alternatives....noone is debating anything relating to your daughter at all....she's free to do as she wishes.....however i am free to advise others as i wish as well.....i dont see why you want to make everything into an argument or take everything as an attack.</p>

59

<p>Shraf, you weren't speaking in general in your post #53, your statement "making $7 an hour as a junior is definitely short changing yourself no matter how much you think she is supposedly "enjoying" the job." You were either directing the "supposedly 'enjoying'" comment at me or one of the other parents, although none of us said our daughter's had $7/hour jobs. (I said didn't know; another parent said their kid got $10). </p>

<p>I'm sorry you guys seem to have has such bad experiences with work study jobs. I don't actually know what my daughter does at her job. I think she said something in passing about helping a professor with research on a book he was writing, but I can't remember now what she said the book was about.</p>

60

<p>
[quote]
Maybe the work-study jobs at Barnard are better, I don't know -- apparently our daughters all have jobs they love whereas you Columbia students seem to find that your work study jobs are "crappy". Maybe part of the whole woman's school empowerment thing means giving them all interesting work-study jobs, I don't know.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>That would be contrary to the efficient marketplace theory. I believe work-study employers pay 1/2 the salary and the feds pay the other 1/2 (that's the way it was when I was in college), so that means CU or BC is actually paying $3.50/hr out of their own pockets for work study labor. So if they're only forking over $3.50/hr to employ these kids, market forces tell us that the jobs involve pretty useless work.</p>