Columbia relationship

[zzgirl]

<p>

…Columbia University is comprised of several distinct undergraduate and graduate schools, as well as affiliates such as Teachers College and the Seminaries…

In this sentence 'Barnard' is NOT mentioned at all...</p>

<p>Please show me the link from Columbia Univeristy source, that state that Barnard is part of Columbia Univeristy… Your personal interpretation does not count… All of Columbia University official documents state that Barnard is NOT part of Columbia. </p>

<p>Why do you think it is impossible to find a statment clearly saying Barnard is part of Columbia ???</p>

<p>All you can find is some ambiguous statment like ’ BC is part of Columbia University system ‘’ (this statement is from BC web site) Is that all you can find from entire Columbia University web site ??</p>

<p>I can show you hundreds of statement from Columbia U’s official documents ,
clearly stating that Barnard is NOT part of Columbia University.</p>

[mythmom]

<p>zzgirl: Your point has been disproved many times. See posts by TheDonald. Your persistence may be admirable, but you do not respond to any proof. There would be no way to prove it to you, but are definitely wrong.</p>

<p>To everyone else – I think it best to let this thread die. You don’t have to agree, but zzgirl will not be convinced. I am certain s/he will answer this post, too.</p>

<p>I will not open this thread again.</p>

[calmom]

<p>

Please show me the link from Columbia Univeristy source, that state that Barnard is part of Columbia Univeristy

</p>

<p>I already did, its on the page I quoted from in the first place. </p>

<p>Here is the link: [Columbia</a> Interactive - E-Resources: Schools](<a href=“http://ci.columbia.edu/ci/eresources/schools.html]Columbia”>http://ci.columbia.edu/ci/eresources/schools.html)</p>

<p>Here are some words: “Here you gain an overview of the vast and diverse intellectual community that Columbia University embodies.”</p>

<p>And then you scroll down THAT page and you find Barnard College, and it says that Barnard college “is one of four undergraduate schools in the Columbia University system.”</p>

[zzgirl]

<p>NO no you didn’t. Barnard is not mentioned in that sentence. and<br>
you are saying that Barnard is part of Columbia based on that line ?<br>
Is that all you can find ? from entire Columbia Univeristy web site ?</p>

<p>’ part of Columbia University system ’ does not mean that
‘part of Columbia Univeristy’</p>

<p>Here is official list of Columbia University schools.
<a href=“http://www.columbia.edu/cu/opir/abstract/enrollment%20headcount%20by%20school%2097-08.htm[/url]”>http://www.columbia.edu/cu/opir/abstract/enrollment%20headcount%20by%20school%2097-08.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

[calmom]

<p>zzgirl, it is obvious at this point that you are either simply here to try to argue no matter what is said, or else your command of the English language is so poor that there simply is no point in trying to explain any more.</p>

[zzgirl]

<p>OK so you are saying Barnard is part of Columbia U based on only one line from entire Columbia University web site ??? and you will ingore hundreds of official document from Columbia U stating that Barnard is separate and independent from Columbia U ??</p>

[calmom]

<p>No, I am saying Barnard is part of Columbia University because when she was admitted, the letter came from “Barnard College, Columbia University”, and the degree she will earn will be issued by Columbia University. </p>

<p>And there is NO “official document” that says Barnard is “separate and independent” – you can’t find that statement anywhere. You’ve picked that phrase from a web site, not an official document – and you pulled it out of context. .</p>

<p>All of the “official documents” say that Barnard is an affiliate of Columbia. The word “affiliate” does NOT mean “separate and independent”. The terms of the actual affiliation agreement specifically PRECLUDE any one from concluding that Barnard is “independent.”</p>

<p>It’s like this: a married couple might enter into a prenuptial agreement that allows them to keep their finances separate. That will be binding on courts later on, and is different than than what ordinarily happens in a marriage if there is no such agreement. But it doesn’t mean the couple isn’t married – it just means that they have come to a different agreement. </p>

<p>If I own 3 businesses and decide to keep all of their finances separate, and have different employees at each – then each of my businesses will be separate. But all 3 would still be owned by me. </p>

<p>Barnard handles its own finances, but has an agreement with Columbia that allows it to use Columbia’s facilities. This is important, because the fees Barnard pays for its students to attend classes at Columbia or to have access to the Columbia library are far less than the cost would be for Barnard to maintain the faculty to teach those courses or to acquire the holdings of Butler library – so Barnard’s finances actually depend on the Columbia relationship to remain viable. </p>

<p>Barnard also handles its own admissions, but that is not really a unique arrangement. Rather, it is typical of many Universities. For example, admission to the various colleges at NYU or Cornell is handled separately. When my daughter applied to Gallatin she was not in any way in competition with her friends who applied to Tisch - but both operate under the umbrella of NYU. Similarly, students who are New York residents who opt to apply to and attend Cornell’s land grant colleges not only attend different schools within the University, but they pay reduced tuition – but they are still attending Cornell, even though Cornell has a specific arrangement with the state of New York that blurs the lines between public & private at some, but not all, of its undergraduate schools. </p>

<p>Some Universities even have schools that are not located in the same place. For example, when my daughter applied to Fordham, she chose to apply to the Lincoln Center campus – and that is where she was accepted. Lincoln Center is an entirely separate place from the Rose Hill campus, with its own buildings and dorms – but if my daughter had opted to attend college there, she would have been a student at “Fordham University” – even though she would have probably had far less contact and involvement with Rose Hill than she now does at Columbia. </p>

<p>Barnard’s faculty are all part of the Columbia University faculty, and hiring and tenure decisions are done in conjunction with Columbia. Since the primary business of Barnard is to offer a program of academics, and that cannot be done without faculty, Columbia’s control clearly means that Barnard is definitely NOT “separate and independent”.</p>

[zzgirl]

<p>Here is the official statement from Columbia U :

Columbia College and The Fu Foundation School of Engineering and Applied Science are both served by the Office of Undergraduate Admissions. The School of General Studies, is Columbia’s college for returning and nontraditional students. It maintains a separate admissions and application process. Barnard College, **the closely affiliated but independent **women’s college across the street, also has an entirely separate admissions and application process.

The bold letter clearly defines what ‘affiliate’ mean. </p>

<p>From the ‘Planning and Institutional Research
Office of the Provost of Columbia University’ does not consider Barnard as Columbia student.
[Columbia</a> University Statistical Abstract | Student Data](<a href=“http://www.columbia.edu/cu/opir/abstract/students.html]Columbia”>http://www.columbia.edu/cu/opir/abstract/students.html)
Columbia does not recognize Barnard at all.</p>

<p>Sharing faculty does not mean that one college belongs to another. For example, Harvard-MIT division of health sciences, hiring and tenure of MIT faculty has to be approved by Harvard. and you can not say the MIT belongs to Harvard just because of this tenuring process. Harvard HST students use MIT library so Harvard belongs to MIT ?? </p>

<p>NYU colleges (e.g. Tisch Gallatin) are recognized by Office of the provosts of NYU
all state colleges of Cornell is also recognizd by Cornell officials.<br>
All fordhand campuses are recognized by Fordman U officials. </p>

<p>However, Barnard is not llisted on the Office of the Provost of the Columbia U.
[Columbia</a> University Statistical Abstract | Student Data](<a href=“http://www.columbia.edu/cu/opir/abstract/students.html]Columbia”>http://www.columbia.edu/cu/opir/abstract/students.html)
** WHY BARNARD IS NOT LISTED HERE ???**</p>

<p>Your personal interpretation regarding library usage, faculty hiring etc, can make you think Barnard is part of columbia… I understand.</p>

<p>HOwever, Columbia U officials never said Barnard is part of COlumbia and many Columbia U’s official documents says barnard is separate and independent.</p>

[zzgirl]

<p>Another official document from Columbia U.</p>

<p>[Columbia</a> University: About Columbia](<a href=“http://www.columbia.edu/about_columbia/index.html]Columbia”>http://www.columbia.edu/about_columbia/index.html)

From its beginnings in a schoolhouse in lower Manhattan, Columbia University has grown to encompass two principal campuses: the historic, neoclassical campus in the Morningside Heights neighborhood and the modern Medical Center further uptown, in Washington Heights. Today, Columbia is one of the top academic and research institutions in the world, conducting pathbreaking research in medicine, science, the arts, and the humanities. ** It includes three undergraduate schools **, thirteen graduate and professional schools, and a school of continuing education.

</p>

[calmom]

<p>zzgirl, I’m not going to discuss this with you any more. Either you are simply trying to argue a point for the sake of being hostile or stubborn, or your English language skills are too deficient for you to make sense of the meaning of a phrase like “closely affiliated”, or you are simply are too stubborn or ignorant to pay attention to information given to you from people who do. Clearly you are not posting to engage in a meaningful dialog or to learn from those who are more knowledgeable than you. </p>

<p>My daughter will get a degree from Columbia University, signed by both the President of Columbia and the President of Barnard. You can go round and round and round with this… but nobody will be able to question that degree. As I am sure that most Barnard students do, she lists, “Barnard College, Columbia University” on her resume because that is the TRUE AND LEGAL way to refer to her college, in the same way that a person might list their home town as being “Springfield, Illinois”. (Is Springfield the SAME as Illinois? No. Is Springfield “independent”? Yes, it is a city with its own charter, its own mayor, its own set of governing ordinances. Is Springfield IN Illinois? Of course. Is it PART of Illinois? Of course… Is the person who lives in Springfield telling the truth if, when asked where they live, they respond, “Illinois”? Absolutely.) I’ve provided this example simply as an illustration of accepted usage. </p>

<p>Most Americans know without being told that Springfield is in Illinois, and it has been my experience that most people also know that Barnard is affiliated with Columbia. So there has never been any explaining to do – every one we have ever met who knows what or where Barnard college is, automatically associates it with Columbia. </p>

<p>I’m sorry that seems to bug you. Can you please explain the source of your anger and hostility? I am assuming jealousy, but perhaps you can explain some other reason that an individual who does not attend a particular school would be so obsessed.</p>

[zzgirl]

<p>Your daughter gets a degree not recognized by Columbia University Office of the Provost,
a degree which does not allow her to join Columbia University Alumni Association, degree not listed on the ’ Degrees awarded by Columbia University’. These are facts and truth. </p>

<p>If your ** personal** interpretation of ‘independent and separate’ is ‘part of’,
you are free to do so… </p>

<p>However, Columbia U’s official statement is that Barnard College is not part of Columbia U.
Barnard is not one of the Columbia U’s 3 undergraduate schools.
and

The equivalency of the degrees shall be maintained in such
manner as the University Senate may prescribe.

and Senate prescribes that Barnard degree is not recognized by Office of the Columbia’s Povost and Barnard degree holders can not join Columbia Alumni association etc… </p>

<p>I have no personal feeling towards barnard, I am just copying what Columbia University official documents says without my own personal interpretation at all…
You are free to interprete these in your own personal ways…</p>

[thedonald]

<p>To move this discussion to a more postive note, here’s a link to the official Columbia University biography of University Board of Trustees Vice Chair Marilyn Laurie, a Barnard graduate:</p>

<p>[Office</a> of the Secretary of The University: Marilyn Laurie, Vice Chair](<a href=“http://www.columbia.edu/cu/secretary/bios/laurie/]Office”>http://www.columbia.edu/cu/secretary/bios/laurie/)</p>

<p>Included in this official biography is the following information:</p>

<p>She was named by the Columbia Spectator as one of the “100 Most Influential Columbia Alumni of All Time;” </p>

<p>Also, take a look at:</p>

<p>[Anna</a> Quindlen](<a href=“http://c250.columbia.edu/c250_celebrates/remarkable_columbians/anna_quindlen.htm]Anna”>Anna Quindlen)
[Twyla</a> Tharp](<a href=“http://c250.columbia.edu/c250_celebrates/remarkable_columbians/twyla_tharp.html]Twyla”>Twyla Tharp)</p>

<p>This Columbia University website praises Barnard graduates Anna Quindlen and Twyla Tharp as two “Columbians ahead of their time” (in the same list that includes Enrico Fermi and Lou Gehrig, by the way).</p>

<p>So despite zzgirl’s protestations, Columbia University does very much consider Barnard grads to be “Columbia alumni” – as they should, since they are all Columbia degree holders.</p>

[calmom]

<p>Columbia Provost page:
[Academic</a> Units | Office of the Provost](<a href=“http://www.provost.columbia.edu/academic_units]Academic”>http://www.provost.columbia.edu/academic_units)
Note inclusion of Barnard College on the list of “Academic Units” on that page (under “Affiliated Institutions”)</p>

<p>Definition of “equivalency”: “where terms refer to the same concept”; hence a directive to “maintain the equivalency” of various degrees is a specification that they are to treated as qualitatively the same, or interchangeable. </p>

<p>Columbia University Senate laws:
[Bylaws</a>, Statutes and Rules of the Columbia University SEnate](<a href=“http://www.columbia.edu/cu/senate/topbar_pages/defining_docs/definingdocs05_rev.html]Bylaws”>http://www.columbia.edu/cu/senate/topbar_pages/defining_docs/definingdocs05_rev.html)</p>

<p>Anybody who does a word search on that page can immediately discover that there are exactly 8 references to “Barnard” and 9 references to the word “provost” or “provosts” and it does NOT say that the Senate prescribes that the Barnard degree is “not recognized” by the Columbia provost. On the contrary, it specifies that the Columbia Academic Senate has the power and duty to: </p>

<p>

d. College courses: to prescribe, by concurrent action with the Faculties of Columbia College, Barnard College, and General Studies, severally, the extent to which courses offered by other faculties and leading to graduate or professional degrees or diplomas shall be included in the programs of studies under those faculties, and the conditions upon which such courses may be elected by candidates for a nonprofessional first degree;</p>

<p>e. Barnard College: to prescribe the manner in which the degree of bachelor of arts conferred upon graduates of Barnard College shall be maintained at all times as a degree of equal value with the degree of bachelor of arts conferred upon the graduates of Columbia College;

</p>

<p>The University Provost’s job description is as follows:</p>

<p>

As Columbia’s chief academic officer, the Provost has the broad responsibility for ensuring that the University’s programs and faculty are of the highest quality. He directs the development and implementation of its academic plans and policies, and supervises the work of its Faculties, departments, institutes, and research centers.</p>

<p>With respect to academic personnel, his most important responsibility is to decide, with the assistance of ad hoc committees, who should be recommended to the President and Trustees for tenure. He also authorizes, directly or through a representative, all academic appointments, salaries and leaves, and reviews faculty grievances.

See: [Responsibilities</a> | Office of the Provost](<a href=“http://www.provost.columbia.edu/responsibilities]Responsibilities”>http://www.provost.columbia.edu/responsibilities)</p>

<p>In other words, the Columbia University provost is responsible for, among other things, monitoring and enforcing the manner in which Barnard degrees are awarded.</p>

[zzgirl]

<p>

Columbia University does very much consider Barnard grads to be “Columbia alumni” – as they should, since they are all Columbia degree holders.

Non-Columbia degree holders can be Columbia Alumni. </p>

<p>For example, MIT gives alumni status to those who took MIT courses as non-degree students. MD studetn from Harvard Medical school’s HST division gets MIT alumni status even though they didn’t get degree from MIT, they also appear as MIT alumni on MIT alumni newsletter. Harvard business school gives alumni status to those took non-degree executive education courses. </p>

<p>Alumni is NOT the proof of Degree Holders.</p>

<p>That is why BC graduates can NOT join Columbia University Alumni Association (which is for Columbia Degree holders only )</p>

[zzgirl]

<p>

Note inclusion of Barnard College on the list of “Academic Units” on that page (under “Affiliated Institutions”)

Yes Barnard is affiliated institution and
Barnard is NOT one of Columbia’s Schools nor Colleges.</p>

[zzgirl]

<p>The following students and schools are considered as Columbia University students by Provost’s office.
[Columbia</a> University Statistical Abstract | Student Data](<a href=“http://www.columbia.edu/cu/opir/abstract/students.html]Columbia”>http://www.columbia.edu/cu/opir/abstract/students.html)</p>

<p>Barnard students are NOT included in ‘Enrollmetn’
NOT included in Degree and Certificates awarded by Columbia University.</p>

<p>The definition of ‘Barnard being affiliate with CU’ by “Planning and Institutional Research Office of the Provost” is that :
Barnard students are not enrolled at Columbia University.
Barnard degree is NOT ‘Degrees and Certificates Awarded’ by Columbia University.</p>

<p>Of course ‘affiliation’ can have different meaning at different places.</p>

[thedonald]

<p>I must say it is extremely frustrating to argue with someone who takes strident positions before checking facts, and then refuses to admit when those assertions are disproven. I went back to check some of the previous statements zzgirl made on this website. I think many of them suggest an uninformed obsession with Columbia’s prestige in general and some sort of hostility toward Barnard in specific. Here are some examples of zzgirl’s misstatements:</p>

<p>May 3, 2009: (On the topic of which are the “lesser” Ivy League schools):</p>

<p>“UPenn and Cornell both have admit rate of about 20%…
Both are affiliated with State Univesity … Penn State, and SUNY”</p>

<p>Really? I’m sure a lot of people will be surprised to learn of the Penn State affiliation. And even though Cornell has four statutory schools, they are not part of the SUNY system.</p>

<p>May 5, 2009:</p>

<p>“Before Columbia went co-ed in 1985, Barnard graduate were considered as Columbia graduates. After 1985, two schools became legally separate and Barnard graduates are no longer part of Columbia.”</p>

<p>Really? The affiliation agreement of 1900 has been renewed every 15 years or so, and there have been some refinements along the way. But there has never been a change in the language concerning Barnard’s legal status, the conferring of all degrees by the University, and the mandated equivalency of the “value” of the B.A. degrees. Did you know what you were talking about, or were you just hoping that what you said was true? </p>

<p>May 6, 2009:</p>

<p>“Columbia also said “no degrees” are awarded to Barnard graduates” </p>

<p>“I looked at the affiliation agreement and confirmed that Barnard degree is NOT Columbia University degree.” </p>

<p>Really? I posted a link to the University Statutes (which expressly incorporate the affiliation agreement) and the truth is just the opposite. Did you actually see a copy of the affiliation agreement and speak to someone at Columbia, or did you just make those statements up? Since you haven’t returned to this argument after we posted the contrary information, I can only assume that you misled us. </p>

<p>July 13, 2009:</p>

<p>“I have no personal feeling towards barnard,” </p>

<p>Really?</p>

<p>July 14, 2009:</p>

<p>“Barnard degree is NOT ‘Degrees and Certificates Awarded’ by Columbia University.”</p>

<p>Really? Even though we have proven to you that (a) the University Statutes clearly state that the degree is awarded by Columbia University, (b) the diploma states it is given by The Trustees of Columbia University and (c) the diploma is signed by the Columbia University President? Even though many of us sat in front of Low Memorial Library and saw our daughters receive their Columbia University degrees side-by-side Columbia College students? Are you accusing the Trustees and President of forgery and the rest of us of some grand conspiracy? Or are you simply refusing to accept the fact that Barnard students receive the identical B.A. degree from Columbia University as their Columbia College friends? And why are you so personally offended by this? </p>

<p>At the end of the day, zzgirl, you have lost your credibility. You’ve refused repeated requests to tell us more about your background and what’s really bugging you about the Columbia/Barnard relationship. I could have also included in this post excerpts from your many other disproven posts on this thread, such as when you asserted that BC economics students can’t take Columbia economics courses (they most certainly can, and do), that BC students can’t dine at Columbia dining facilities (they can, but often choose not to), and that BC students can’t live in Columbia dormitories (there’s limited availability, but it definitely happens). In all of these, you started off stating as fact some broad statement you wish were true, but when you were confronted with documentary proof to the contrary you shifted the argument to progressively sillier things (like which career advising office you use and whether you keep your email account after you graduate). </p>

<p>Now we’re down to the question of whether Barnard is “part of” Columbia. I’m a Catholic and yet I still haven’t completely come to grips with the complexities of the Holy Trinity concept – but I’m not at all troubled by concluding that Barnard is most definitely “part of” Columbia University. Most would agree, I think, but we all recognize that you feel otherwise – and that’s fine. You’re entitled to your opinion, but you’re simply wrong if you continue to assert that Barnard students do not receive B.A. degrees from Columbia University. To continue claiming that a statistics sheet from the provost’s office somehow overrides the Columbia University Statutes, the century-old intercorporate agreement, the University President’s signature on thousands of diplomas and our own experience watching our daughters graduate in front of Low Memorial Library with other Columbia alumni is simply delusional. Barnard grads receive Columbia University degrees that are officially recognized by the University to be of “equal value” with the degrees granted to Columbia College graduates. Live with it.</p>

<p>In fairness, after all that has been discussed on this topic, I think a reader of these posts will understand that Barnard and Columbia operate as an integrated educational enterprise, with students from both schools participating side by side in practically all academic, athletic, extracurricular and social contexts ending with a common graduation and identical Columbia University degrees. Yes there are differences, but they are relatively insignificant compared to the commonalities. Unlike zzgirl, CC students don’t feel threatened when they see a Barnard student wearing a Columbia sweatshirt – they’re more likely to be glad for the added crowd support at football and basketball games. </p>

<p>zzgirl, if you’re honest with yourself, you’ll realize that you have no real interest in Barnard or in helping prospective students gain an understanding of the many, many wonderful things Barnard has to offer. All you have is an obsession. Why don’t you just stop this nonsense and leave this site for people who care – and who can speak from personal knowledge?</p>

[primefactor]

<p>Taking a moment to send an important message from abroad…</p>

<p>Oh, snap. Go thedonald.</p>

[zzgirl]

<p>So you admit that you are WRONG about definition of Alumni. Alumni is NOT degree holder. </p>

<p>

“Barnard degree is NOT ‘Degrees and Certificates Awarded’ by Columbia University.”</p>

<p>Really? Even though we have proven to you that (a) the University Statutes clearly state that the degree is awarded by Columbia University,

</p>

<p>Yes Really. Look at the list
<a href=“http://www.columbia.edu/cu/opir/abstract/degrees%20and%20certificates%20awarded%202007-2008.htm[/url]”>http://www.columbia.edu/cu/opir/abstract/degrees%20and%20certificates%20awarded%202007-2008.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Can you please find Barnard on the list ?</p>

<p>Show me where it says the University Statutes clearly state that the degree is awarded by Columbia University,</p>

<p>All I see is

The University will confer
the degree of bachelor of arts…

Universities can confer non-university degrees to non-univeristy students. </p>

<p>The following are undisputalble facts and truth.
According to “Planning and Institutional Research
Office of the Provost”, NO Columbia U degrees are awarded to Barnard student.<br>
<a href=“http://www.columbia.edu/cu/opir/abstract/students.html[/url]”>http://www.columbia.edu/cu/opir/abstract/students.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Barnard degree holders are NOT allowed to join Columbia University Alumni Association(which requires CU degree)</p>

[churchmusicmom]

<p>ZZgirl, what is your problem?</p>

<p>Nobody is trying to claim Barnard is anything other than what it is. The people who have posted here (other than yourself) are those with first-hand knowledge of the facts of the Barnard/Columbia relationship. These facts have been garnered through either experience as a student (Primfactor, for one) or as a parent of a recent Barnard grad or current Barnard student. </p>

<p>You still have failed to address questions that have been asked repeatedly as to why you are on this rant. What is your current educational status? Are you a High School student, future or present college applicant, college student, what??? Why are you so intent on trying to play games with semantics when you clearly do not have a great grip on the english language to start with? No disrespect intended, just observation from your posts. </p>

<p>I think this thread will provide excellent info for anyone truly interested in the facts of the Barnard/Columbia relationship as the content and tenor of zzgirl’s posts as contrasted with those of others here who DO have direct knowledge of the facts will serve to highlight both the veracity of the latter and the ridiculousness of the former.</p>