<p>I am not sure I agree with your assessment. If a Michigan man (or woman) bites your head off for denigrating the school, it is a function of school pride and loyalty (I agree Michigan is ridiculous when it comes to loyalty and helping their own alums), not insecurity. I certainly don't see how students defending their own university in a forum dedicated to their own school qualifies as "inferiroty complex". Inferiority complexes exist everywhere of course. I am sure that some students at Michigan suffer from such an unfortunate complex. But then again, such students attend all universities. How else would you explain students from other schools visiting our forum in an attempt to belittle Michigan. Now that's inferiroty complex! You don't see Michigan students or alums going to other schools' forums and denigrating their schools.</p>
<p>Two more things Sux2BUCuzUNotMe:</p>
<p>1) I was under the impression that you had been admitted into and were going to attend Notre Dame. I actually know of several cases this year where students who were admitted into Notre Dame were in fact rejected by Michigan. </p>
<p>2) You say; "Sure, the top 10-15% are Ivy eligible...but think about it, so are the top 7% at MSU."</p>
<p>I am not sure where you came up with that figure. The top 30% of Michigan students scored over a 1400 on the SAT and over a 30 in the ACT. Those students are typically ranked among the top 1% of their graduting class and had a 4.0 unweighed GPA in high school. I would say that those students are all "Ivy Eligible". I am sure not all got into vies. Some may have applied and were rejected, others may have not even applied. But I am also sure than many applied, got in and opted to attend Michigan. I certainly did...as did many people I know. Even the next 30% of Michigan's student's body could be Ivy Eligible. SAT scores in the 1300-1390 range, ACT scores in the 28-30 range, unweighed GPAs in the 3.8-39 range and ranked in the top 5% of their class. That sounds like a significant portion of the students at the Ivy League. I am not going to discuss MSU, but the figures aren't quite the same.</p>
<p>Honestly, i have NEVER heard of a kid who got into ND but got rejected from Michigan...but anything is possible I guess.</p>
<p>However, let's not get crazy here...the "next 30% of Michigan's student body" is NOT ivy-league eligible. I will grant you that the top 10-15% is (but the same is true for OSU, PSU, and many LARGE public universities...I just used MSU as an example because they do have a great business school and smart kids etc...). SAT scores 1300-1390 and ACT scores of 28-30 are not nearly ivy-league material, by any stretch of the imagination. Just using Notre Dame as a metric (because I have so much experience with it)...those scores wouldn't stand a chance of getting in (with ND's 1405 average SAT and 32 average ACT). Especially with U of M's 50% admission rate, I can't really take those statements seriously. But regardless, I think that U of M is legit as heck, but it is no ivy league. That is exactly what the initial writer was positing...i was just backing it up because there is a lot of evidence (in my opinion, obviously).</p>
<p>"SAT scores 1300-1390 and ACT scores of 28-30 are not nearly ivy-league material, by any stretch of the imagination. Just using Notre Dame as a metric (because I have so much experience with it)...those scores wouldn't stand a chance of getting in (with ND's 1405 average SAT and 32 average ACT). "</p>
<p>LOL.</p>
<p>"just for reference...myself and at least three of my close friends applied to Notre Dame as first choice and Michigan as a back up (as is commonplace for my area). Needless to say, none of us got in to Notre Dame so we all went to UMich (which was pretty easy to get into."</p>
<p>Michigan accepts three times as many students, so of course it would be easier to get in.</p>
<p>How difficult it is to get in isn't always a good indicator of things. It may be hard to get the prom queen in bed, but that doesn't mean she'll be a good lay. It may be hard to get a reservation at a fancy restaurant, but that doesn't mean the food won't be poorly made and way overpriced. It may be hard to get accepted to a country club, but what's the point if you don't play golf? Notre Dame may be hard to get into, but I'm still taking classes in a better department and with smarter students at Michigan.</p>
<p>"SAT scores 1300-1390 and ACT scores of 28-30 are not nearly ivy-league material, by any stretch of the imagination. Just using Notre Dame as a metric (because I have so much experience with it)...those scores wouldn't stand a chance of getting in (with ND's 1405 average SAT and 32 average ACT). "</p>
<p>Just a basic refresher in common sense, unless everybody has the exact same statistics, somebody is going to have get accepted with statistics below the average.</p>
<p>oh gosh man (dilksy) now you are being unreasonable. i'm not going to debate Notre Dame's dominance over Michigan (this is a U of M forum so it would be neither productive nor polite) but i will say that U of M students cling to their grad schools too much. I have heard too many people--even my friends--say "yeah, well you know you wish you went to our grad schools!". The problem is, though, that we are talking about undergrad. Your business school is pretty sick (however, Businessweek voted ND's #3 so another moot point) but, overall, U of M's undergrad doesn't distinguish itself from other upper-echelon public schools (Cal, UCLA, UVa, UNC). You can say your engineering and social sciences programs are top ranked etc...but when it comes to those kind of majors, recruiters look to the pedigree of the school you went to. U of M is a great pedigree but there are many more that are more compelling. I would never trade in my time spent at U of M...but ya'll gotta stop trying to compete with the Ivies, the Northwestern's, the John's Hopkins, the Notre Dame's, and the WashU's of this country.</p>
<p>Yet still...GO BLUE!!</p>
<p>And, to the original subject of the thread...BOTTOM LINE...I talk to a lot of Michigan grads and i SERIOUSLY sometimes think they are actually under the impression that they went to an Ivy League calibur school. Loyalty and pride is one thing (trust me i know...Notre Dame gets a worse reputation than Michigan does) but these are borderline delusions of grandeur.</p>
<p>
[quote]
You can say your engineering and ... programs are top ranked etc...but when it comes to those kind of majors, recruiters look to the pedigree of the school you went to. U of M is a great pedigree but there are many more that are more compelling.
[/quote]
OK, I'll bite. Michigan has a long history as an engineering powerhouse in the industry. Tell me which private universities have a better reputation from the recruiter's perspective*. I will concede MIT and Stanford. But what else?</p>
<p>*There is no need to discuss the academic perspective; Michigan engineering wins hands down in that department.</p>
<p>May be you should stick to things you know in the future. Aren't you a business major? What do you know about the enginering industry?</p>
<p>The professors that make a graduate school highly regarded are the same ones that you're going to be taking classes from, getting advice from, getting recommendation letters from, etc. It also generally means there will be better and more plentiful research opportunities if you're in a field where that's important. I'd say for most people, it's a far better indicator of what your academic experience will be like than most of the crap USNWR is based on like admission rates, average SAT, endowment per student, etc.</p>
<p>At most top schools, many top students take graduate courses their senior year (if not sooner). Those are going to be the classes that should interest you the most, and be most relevant to what you want to go into. Would you rather they be at a top 10 graduate program with some of the top students in the country, or at a lesser graduate school with students that had to settle for a lesser graduate school?</p>
<p>Sux, you really are clueless. 25% of Cornell and Brown students have ACT scores under 28 and SAT scores under 1300. So don't go telling me that students with 1300-1390 SAT/28-30 ACT scores aren't Ivy League material. Get your facts straight. Botton line, your claming that there are many more compeling universities than Michigan is laughable. You really ignorant. It is so sad how little you know. Do yourself a favor and educate yourself before you post on this forum. Your presence here offends me.</p>
<p>You want facts. You and others come from other universities and post trash on our forum. that is insecurity. We don't feel compelled to go to other forums and trash other schools. Whenever we discuss peer institutions, we extand every courtesy. We acknowledge that they are worthy equals. You don't see us claim superiority over other schools of equal calibre. I am not sure who has a complex, but it definitely isn't us.</p>
<p>Geez, what is with people on this forum? I have never interacted with individuals that are as touchy as the ones here. Luckily a lot of my Michigan friends accept reality willingly and don't have this sort of negative and pompous attitude.</p>
<p>Alexandre, the only individuals who can get into Ivy League schools in this day and age with a 28 on the ACT or a 1300 on the SAT are legacies, athletes, developmental admits or minorities. A regular Asian or a regular white person located in an adequately represented metropolis has virtually no chance to get into even Cornell with those stats. An in-state student who applies with those stats early enough has about a 50-50 shot to get accepted to U of M on the other hand. There is a CLEAR difference in selectivity. I hope we're on the same page regarding this matter.</p>
<p>As far as Michigan alumni involvement, I feel that you overstate it by quite a bit. There are too many living Michigan alumni today for the University of Michigan diploma to turn heads among corporate recruiters, even if they are Wolverines themselves. Small private schools like Dartmouth and Duke function differently because they have a smaller alumni base and thus alumni are more eager to help recent grads out with their job search and with career advice, especially in a foreign location. Michigan grads are everywhere, from Germany to Australia to Hong Kong. That might sound like a good thing because the school has good name recognition, but that argument doesn't work well in comparison with the top private elites because they have equal or better recognition among informed folk who maker hiring decisions. There hardly exist any jobs worldwide where there won't be multiple Wolverines competing for the position so the effect of the degree is reduced.</p>
<p>
<p>At most top schools, many top students take graduate courses their senior year (if not sooner). Those are going to be the classes that should interest you the most, and be most relevant to what you want to go into. Would you rather they be at a top 10 graduate program with some of the top students in the country, or at a lesser graduate school with students that had to settle for a lesser graduate school?
Michigan professors aren't necessarily better than professors in the top 10 schools though and it definitely can't be proven that they are better educators. In fact, professors are more motivated to teach their students well when they notice that their students are intellectually curious and actively engage themselves in the classroom setting. That is more likely to happen at the Ivies than it is at Michigan.</p>
<p>Yes, I would like to be in a top graduate program with the top students in the country. Unfortunately, those students aren't found in Michigan for the large part. Let's take math for example. Michigan has performed horrendously on the Putnam Competition when you consider how good their math program supposedly is. They only have 4 top 5 finishes in the entire competition's history. MICHIGAN STATE HAS 5 FOR CRYING OUT LOUD. How can you possibly tell me that the top students in the country are found at Michigan? I was offered a Shipman's Scholarship when I applied to UMich and I don't consider myself a top student at all, especially in comparison to Duke students. At Michigan, I would have been the "creme de la creme" though.</p>
<p>Michigan is a solid state school with a historically solid football program. Nothing more and nothing less.</p>
<p>now you've done it.</p>
<p>Cornell(part state school btw)>>>> Duke.</p>
<p>Would ring<em>of</em>fire care to tell us where he went to school? Pretty cryptic about that little detail. Kind of sounds like a bitter MSU grad to me. I refer you to the TIMES Higher Education rankings that were just released. They paint a different, more accurate picture of UMich ;)</p>
<p>School with more top 5 finishes than Michigan in Putnam:
Toronto
Waterloo
Brooklyn College of NY
City College of NY
Total of 16 colleges</p>
<p>Schools with less top 5 finishes than Michigan in Putnam:
Dartmouth
Brown
Carnigie Mellon
UCLA
Notre Dame (0 top five finishes)</p>
<p>Not sure what your point is about Putnam. Some schools put emphasis on the Putnam, some do not. It is largely irrelevant to the qaulity of the math program.</p>
<p>ringoffire turned down a full ride to go to duke. probably regretting spending $150k more for the same education and basically the same college experience.</p>
<p>I was referring to the graduate students you'd be taking classes with, not necessarily the undergrads (though most of the ones that take graduate level courses end up at top 10 grad schools).</p>
<p>Michigan State's top finishes in the Putnam mainly came back in the 1960s when they had a better math department.</p>
<p>The Putnam tells you which school has the best 3 people at competition math. Many times these people are also good at more academic math. But there are also a lot of people who spend time studying, practicing old exams, etc or just have a knack for competition math, and lots of people that are good at academic math but can't do competitions. There's really not much emphasis put on it at Michigan. Last year I don't think any of our graduating seniors (including an NSF Fellow and NSF honorable mention) bothered taking it.</p>
<p>on that Times Higher Educaiton ranking that just came out...i am sorry but i can't take any ranking seriously that puts "colleges" like Wisconsin ahead of academic institutions like Emory, Vanderbilt, Notre Dame, WashU, etc...</p>
<p>Dartmouth (the school that Forbes ranked #1 for getting rich as a graduate) at #54 with Wisconsin at #55?</p>
<p>The top 75 schools in the WORLD include American colleges like Univ. of Illinois, Wisconsin, Texas-Austin, UCSD, etc...these schools are hardly in the top 75 in our national rankings! Cling to any form of validation you can, but look at the underlying theme here...other than the Ivies, the only American schools that dominate on that list are schools with a HUGE student body. Ironic?? With a degree from Michigan, I thought it would be pretty clear.</p>
<p>Any study that purports to rank universities worldwide is impossible to give credence to. The mere breadth of a study is ridiculous to even contemplate. It is hard enough to compare Liberal Art colleges in America (by the way, where is Williams and Swarthmore on that list??) with regular colleges. Sorry ya'll, but the study was an impossible task and, as such, it came up tremendously short.</p>
<p>Just stop. At least ring<em>of</em>fire makes rational, if misguided and naive, arguments. All you're doing is embarrassing yourself and, indirectly, your school.</p>
<p>okay junior (in college)...what exactly is irrational about what i said?</p>
<p>Sux2BUCuzUNotMe, it really is unfortunate that ND is all the way down at 168. Especially because it is a fine institution. It must hurt that you fell from the highly coveted 155 spot, but lashing out on this board (meant for current and future college kids) makes you look a little childish, eh? All rankings are debatable, as evidenced by this site. 95% of people take issue with them because their schools are ranked low. Case and point, your rather weak argument. It's ok. I'm sure you're a smart, humble gentleman (as evidenced by your username), so don't take the rankings presonally. PS did ASU even make the list?</p>
<p>"I'm sure you're a smart, humble gentleman (as evidenced by your username)..."</p>
<p>Haha, that's great.</p>