Coursework

Pre-Med & Medical School Pre-Med Topics
41

<p>bluedevilmike - </p>

<p>I have a question for you on behalf of my daughter....I hope you can help. She is at UNC-CH and organic chemistry is offered over three semesters rather than two. I would imagine the advantage to this three part series is better coverage of the topics and therefore better preparation for MCATS.... and perhaps higher grades. But we are concerned about timing for the MCATs. She is a freshman in her first semester of Gen Chem (101), and plans to take her second semester of Gen Chem (102) in Spring 2007. If she delays the start of the three-part Orgo series until Fall 2007, she will not complete Organic Chem until December of 2008. </p>

<p>Would you recommend taking Gen Chem 102 and the first Organic Chem class together in the Spring 2007 semester, so that she completes Orgo by the end of her sophomore year? It seems like the best way to take the MCAT is after a summer of preparation rather than midyear while trying to juggle test prep with regular coursework. But I don't know if taking two Chems and a Bio are recommended, along with Calc II.</p>

<p>She getting frustrated about spring scheduling already. Facing losing her spot on women's crew because practices conflict with labs...and now she is worried about how to manage this unusual chemistry series. She is also in Honors and has certain course requirements with that program which complicate as well. </p>

<p>Any help/advice from anyone would be appreciated.</p>

42

<p>Hi LD,</p>

<p>Assure your daughter that there is absolutely nothing to worry about. For one thing, the MCAT's new shorter response time changes the process considerably. This is the most important thing for her to take away from this: there are plenty of perfectly acceptable options for her at this point. I'm about to give you four separate - and all perfectly acceptable - options she has.</p>

<p>First: Just take it in the middle/end of junior year. Notice that the currently "normal" time to take the MCAT (this all changes with the new test dates) is April. At Duke, this is not merely in the middle of the school year; it's just before finals. And yet things seem to work out okay anyway. So taking it towards the beginning of summer (June) or after Christmas break (January) are both even improvements over that.</p>

<p>Second: Take the MCAT with incomplete coursework. I want to emphasize to you that the organic chemistry on the MCAT is not all that difficult. If she's using the same book as me (Louden), she needs basically chapters 1, 4, 20, 21, and 22. I say this not to give you a topics list but to underscore how scantily organic chemistry is covered. Even beyond that, it's less than one third of the biology section, which is already one third of the test. Skipping organic chemistry completely on the MCAT would cost you probably around four points. (This is a big deal, but it's small when you consider how "important" OChem is supposed to be for premeds.) Again, things may change with the introduction of CBT, but I don't think this will change. I often, in fact, recommend taking the MCAT before physics at all - the course simply isn't necessary. Organic chemistry, while not quite the same, could be treated similarly if she feels strongly about it - and has the help of a preparation course (which I recommend anyway).</p>

<p>Third: don't bother with the third semester at all. Check to see when she covers carboxylic acid reactions. This is as far as she needs to learn for the MCAT. If she is there (or nearly there) by the end of the second semester, it may not be necessary for her to take the third semester at all - or at least no need to take it before the MCAT.</p>

<p>Fourth: take all the classes simultaneously. It will be difficult, but certainly not impossible. My suggestion is to see how she's doing in her classes at UNC-CH and make a decision later. Some kids will be up to the task; some won't. Can I make a confession? My GPA always rose - invariably - when I was taking more classes simultaneously, and harder ones at that. I always found that I had less success with one hard class and three easy ones than I had with four difficult ones and two easy ones. People react differently to busy-ness, and your daughter has plenty of time to make the decision.</p>

43

<p>is it bad if I want to go pre-med and have not signed up for any science classes this year? (I'm a freshman) My sister and my mom told me not to take any classes this year because they weren't sure if the profs here would be good or not (they want me to find out from upperclassmen) and that I don't have to major in the sciences to go premed. </p>

<p>I disagreed with them 100% and I believe that this decision will come back and bite me in the rear later on.</p>

44

<p>1.) It's true that you don't have to major in a science, but you do have to take science classes!</p>

<p>2.) Why would the professors be any better if you wait to find out?</p>

<p>3.) It will certainly not "bite" you per se if you decide to push things back by a year, it just means you'll need to compress your next couple of years by a little bit. It's annoying and certainly not something you'd want to do voluntarily, but it's hardly going to kill your chances or even force you to take a year off.</p>

45

<p>I should've asked them question number 2 before I started here. :(</p>

<p>Isn't it going to be more stressful later on?</p>

46

<p>Yes, it will, but hardly fatally so. You'll just have things a little bit more packed together than normal. Tell me about your high school background - maybe there's room to open some stuff up a little bit. Did you take AP Bio, AP Chem, or any sort of Physics?</p>

47

<p>I didn't take any AP science classes (my friend gave me her AP bio work, notes and everything, because she didn't want them). I did take physics my senior year and I got an A- because I studied hard, attended EVERY study session afterschool before a test, and really liked it. I was good at chem (even my chem teacher was convincing me to take AP chem, but I didn't) and I aced Bio II (both of the biology teachers I had wanted me to take AP bio, but I didn't since my senior workload was enough).</p>

<p>I've loved science ever since I was little, and I'm really bummed out about not taking any science classes this year. (the only class that's close to science is my intro to psych class and I <em>love</em> this class so much, that I'm going to take Cognitive Psych with the same prof next semester)</p>

48

<p>Okay, so you'll need to start from the ground up in bio and chem, but there's the possibility that you don't need to worry about taking physics until after the MCAT. Depends on how good you feel about it.</p>

<p>What about math?</p>

49

<p>I'm taking applied calculus now (one semester of math is required to graduate) and I have to start Calculus I soon. The applied calculus is calculus, just for non-science majors and has more applications of it. (At least that's what my TA told me)</p>

50

<p>So it sounds like you've got a pretty filled soph/junior year. Definitely no reason to panic/feel like you're going to be "bitten". But there's nothing I see that you can skip.</p>

51

<p>how much math will I need if I decide to major in biology (or some form of it like human bio or cellular and molecular) and minor in psychology?
Also, will minoring in psychology cause more stress since I'm behind in the sciences?</p>

52

<p>Varies from school to school. And there's a thread titled "What should a premed major in?" that will be helpful. The answer, by the way, is, "Major in whatever subject interests you the most - but maybe take some extra bio on the side."</p>

53

<p>
[quote]
Extra courses: While not usually required, biochem is also a good idea, and two semesters of bio is probably on the low side. Good classes would include Anatomy, Microbiology, Physiology, Principles, Cell Biology, and Genetics. Higher-level physics or chemistry (i.e. p-chem & a-chem) are not recommended.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>BDM, what do you mean by higher level chemistry is not recommended? Are you just talking about extra classes that aren't really useful in med school or are these classes generally GPA killers? I want to major in Chemistry, so I am a little curious (Chem at Penn in case you or anyone else knows anything about Penn's Chemistry department). Also, does Statistics for Economics count as a math class for premeds? Finally, why do you recommend pushing Physics back as much as possible (just curious)?</p>

<p>One last question: I know it will be hard to judge which courses are good to take when because every student is different, but would you, based on your own abilities, find it too much to take biology and orgo at the same time?</p>

54

<p>1.) Things like p-chem and a-chem are not useful for medical school and are excessively difficult.</p>

<p>2.) Stats yes, Econ no. Stats classes in the Econ dept, still no.</p>

<p>3.) Because if you don't want to take lots of premed classes simultaneously, physics is the one that's least impt for the MCAT.</p>

<p>4.) Not only would I need to know how hard you can study, how smart you are, and how hard your school is, I'd also need to know which biology class you're referring to. Personally? I took 2nd sem. orgo and Duke's most work-intensive biology class simultaneously, and I got an B/A-, respectively.</p>

55

<p>Thanks for the help. I'm still a senior in high school, so I have a lot of time to sit down with an adviser and figure out when I should take classes and which ones to take, but I'm starting to think I was a little ambitious wanting to finish my premed requirements in 2 years.</p>

56

<p>A useful, miscellaneous point regarding coursework:</p>

<p>
[quote]
phillySASer08: My advisor has always preached avoiding [withdrawals] almost at all costs, the rationale being that med schools will assume you were doing quite poorly in the class if you were willing to take the W on your transcript. A B would be, much, much preferred.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Seemed to me like a very good point.</p>

57

<p>Agreed. (10 char)</p>

58

<p>In regards to your final point, Venkat, I not only took biology and orgo at the same time, but I also took Physics I as well. I'm not sure about your school but SUNY Stony Brook (don't judge us cause we're a SUNY) offers "physics for the life sciences" which is essentially non-calculus based physics. I got A's in every one of those classes and it was by far my toughest semester. I also took physics lab and bio lab at the same time. My school breaks down the biology into 3: ecology, molecular, cell and organ physiology. I took molecular that semester and to be honest, I stopped going to class about midway through the year as it became too draining on my life to sit through bio, then orgo, then physics every mon, wed, and fri. Molecular is definitely not the hardest course and I did have my knowledge from AP biology to fall back on. And in regards to orgo, I did not enjoy it my first semester, probably due to two heavy sciences alongside it and because the first semester of orgo is very boring. I did take "honors" organic II and now I TA it so I do enjoy orgo which can be a factor as well. As BDM said, a lot of it depends on your abilities and the difficulties of the course.</p>

59

<p>I would strongly, strongly discourgage you from majoring in chem if you attend Penn, not because the program is poor (quite the opposite, and that's the issue actually) or anything like that, but because frankly your chances for survival are not good. The chem department has the harshest curve of any department at Penn (set to a C+/B- with 15-20% A's and A-'s), and the most brutal classes. Gen Chem is, in my opinion, the toughest of the intro sciences (though as a chem major you'd also have to take the engineering sections of physics, which is also brutal), and orgo at Penn is every bit as difficult as people make it out to be. Even that lab component for orgo (which is a 1 semester, 8-10 classroom hours/week course that most premeds at Penn actually take after they have completed both semesters of orgo lecture and submitted their med school applications) is brutal.</p>

<p>The other upper level classes only get worse. There are two main biochem classes at Penn, Bio 202 and Chem 251. The former is pretty tough and is the one Bio majors and the like take; the latter is what Chem and Biochem majors take and is probably the most difficult set of coursework I have ever seen in my life. My gf took it last semester and it was to the point where she thought orgo was easy by comparison. I've heard horror stories about p-chem and p-chem lab as well, though not quite to the extent of biochem, which I feel reasonably confident in saying is the single hardest class at Penn (except maybe for Bio 402, which is the advanced biochem class that at one point in its history had 4-hour long exams).</p>

<p>Now, let's say you're a real juggernaut at chem and are good enough to handle the major requirements- getting your research in is the next major hurdle. The Chem/Biochem departments at Penn are the most research/grad school oriented at the school, meaning that (and I have seen this numerous times) Chem professors do not want to take you on in the lab if they know you're premed, because few Penn Chem majors are. Being a Chem major, you also do not have the advanced Bio coursework for work in a Bio lab, which will hurt your chances there as well (not to say you won't find a spot, it'll just be harder).</p>

<p>Now that I've probably scared you have to death, and i apologize for the lengthy post, I will say this: Penn is an excellent place to have success as a premed if you're dedicated enough. The advising is excellent, the number of people who get into med school with comprably low GPA's is striking, and the rigour of the premed courseload, if it doesn't kill you, will prepare you for the MCAT in a way that few schools can. There are plentiful labs for research, and a world-class hospital for volunteer/clinical exposure, and a general preprofessional atmosphere that contribute to makeing Penn one of (in my opinion) the top two or three premed destinations out there. So, I strongly encourage you to look at Penn, but, if you're sure you want to go into medicine, as something other than a Chem major.</p>

60

<p>On the note of finishing your requirements in 2 years, I'd also discourage you from doing so, even though there are undeniable advantages to doing so (namely, taking your MCAT earlier). However, many people I know who have tried this track have either been forced into summer classes (not good), or had their GPA's adversley affected (much worse). With the new schedule for the MCAT, some of the incentive is also diminished. Given that orgo I at Penn covers the bulk of the organic chem that will appear on the MCAT (pretty mcuh everything other than aromatics and carboxylic acids, which are, granted, very important), I think a sufficiently motivated students would be able to self-study the orgo II material important for the MCAT and take the test in January of junior year, allowing for a retake in april or may while keeping the ability to apply in the same year in a timely fashion. Actually, extending your plan to get in your coursework in 2.5 years rather than two could work out quite niceley, and have orgo II completed in time for the January MCAT</p>

<p>Here's an idea (the remainder of your schedule would of course be filled with other classes for requirements or electives)
Freshman year: Fall-calc and chem 1 Spring-chem 2 and bio 1 (and maybe calc 2 if you want two semesters, which i recommend)
Sophomore: Fall-bio 2 and physics 1 Spring-physics 2 and orgo 1
Junior: Fall-orgo 2 (all premed reqs except orgo lab completed, take MCAT in January)</p>