<p>"Also, to identify yourself as pro-life, I think you should be at least 18. Otherwise, you're taking an overly definite stand on a complicated issue that you don't yet understand."</p>
<p>Riiight. Surely nobody should oppose the right to live until they are 18. But why are you suggesting that it is okay to be pro-choice before one is 18???</p>
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Surely nobody should oppose the right to live until they are 18.
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<p>I agree. Every person does deserve to live until he or she is 18.</p>
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But why are you suggesting that it is okay to be pro-choice before one is 18???
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<p>Ideally, kids younger than 18 should not identify themselves with either perspective. But if they still choose to, pro-choice is more of an open stance on the issue than is pro-life. Pro-choice = freedom to choose; Pro-life = NO ABORTIONS EVER. For this reason, I think being pro-choice represents a more open-minded view. And when one does not really understand something, it's better to be open-minded than close-minded.</p>
<p>I'm not 18 and I feel well enough informed to take a stance. And I'm pretty sure there are people over the age of 18 who have no idea what they're talking about when it comes to abortion.</p>
<p>Blatently stating that you should be 18 before you identify with a perspective is unfair. We're on CC for God's sake; it should be understood that there are 16-17 year-olds who are intelligent enough to take a stand on abortion.</p>
<p>From a pro-lifer:</p>
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No, not really. I'm pro-life unless there are truly extenuating circumstances (rape or danger of health of mother).
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<p>This fits with my personal experience, wherein many pro-lifers agree that abortion should be allowed in the case of rape or risk of death for the mother. But that also takes away your greatest argument- that the embryo is just as alive as any person and abortion = murder. I doubt anyone would advocate for the murder of, say, a 4 year old child who was the product of rape... even if raising that child was causing significant emotional trauma for the mother. </p>
<p>Same with people who say they don't want to force their morality on others. But we will and we DO force our morality on others when it comes to actual murder- with the legal system that enforces extensive prison time or in some cases, execution.</p>
<p>I think this proves that the issue of abortion is really an issue of subjective morality, rather than the type of encompassing morality that comes with basic humanity. The fact that there even is an argument at all... that so MANY people are pro-choice (in European countries, in Canada, in China, in Japan I believe, pro-choice is the prevailing opinion).... that in fact, the 'life' of a embryo is not equal to human life at all.</p>
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It's not any less "valuable." But if a fetus does not have the loving support of its parents, it probably would not have that great of a life. And forcing a rape victim to be reminded of having endured one of the most despicable offenses imaginable for NINE MONTHS just doesn't seem fair to me.
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<p>I agree with that assessment. That's why the whole rape situation is so terrible. I think this comes down to whether you are pro life or choice, but for me, carrying a baby I conceived by being raped would be traumatic, but dealing with my conscience for aborting it would be traumatic too. I'm not going to try to tell others what to think on this, it's a tough issue all around. In a way I am glad that safe abortions are available, so that desperate women don't have to resort to dangerous back-alley type methods.</p>
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I'm not 18 and I feel well enough informed to take a stance. And I'm pretty sure there are people over the age of 18 who have no idea what they're talking about when it comes to abortion.</p>
<p>Blatently stating that you should be 18 before you identify with a perspective is unfair. We're on CC for God's sake; it should be understood that there are 16-17 year-olds who are intelligent enough to take a stand on abortion.
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<p>Okay. You're right; I take back what I said about having to be 18 to have an informed perspective. The reason I said that, though, is that 90% of the pro-life arguments I hear from my peers are simply "abortion is murder therefore it is always wrong." This argument is unconvincing because it does not even recognize the reasoning behind the pro-choice stance, and its incredible oversimplification makes debate of the topic virtually impossible. THAT is why I hastily made up that (specious) rule about being 18 years old before having a credible opinion.</p>
<p>Thanks for pointing that out, though, and hopefully you can understand where I am coming from.</p>
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The reason I said that, though, is that 90% of the pro-life arguments I hear from my peers are simply "abortion is murder therefore it is always wrong." This argument is unconvincing because it does not even recognize the reasoning behind the pro-choice stance, and its incredible oversimplification makes debate of the topic virtually impossible.
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<p>I agree completely. I'm glad that you explained where you were coming from; it makes sense. But I'm still 17 and I'm still pro-choice.</p>
<p>I'm pro-choice and some very very good points have been raised on this thread. I'd like to raise another one. For people thinking that all abortions should be outlawed, is that really going to stop a lot of women from getting one. Many women will end up going to illegal backroom abortions clinics and using crackhead doctors armed with hangers. That will be incredibly dangerous and would physically harm two lives.</p>
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Many women will end up going to illegal backroom abortions clinics and using crackhead doctors armed with hangers.
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Not to mention increased suicides. I think it would just make things easier if it's legalized. That way the people who want one can get one, and those who don't shouldn't. Why should one side dictate how everyone lives?</p>
<p>Alex</p>
<p>Hank and Alexx, I would have to disagree.</p>
<p>Sure, SOME women will get an abortion whether it is illegal or not. But don't some people commit murder and rape, although both are illegal? If we made murder legal, it is likely that the murder rate would increase. Thus, it is reasonable to assume that making abortion illegal would decrease the number of procedures being done. (I am not arguing that prohibiting abortion would completely STOP abortions from happening, but rather, that the number being done would likely decrease significantly.)</p>
<p>As for suicide rates, do you have any evidence for you claim? Many women report feeling extremely depressed after having an abortion, and some even go so far as suicide.</p>
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Sure, SOME women will get an abortion whether it is illegal or not. But don't some people commit murder and rape, although both are illegal? If we made murder legal, it is likely that the murder rate would increase.
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Relating abortion to murder is pretty much the center of the whole abortion debate. Let's take it from your stance: you can't relate it to other illegal activities because it's a choice that affects the mother alone, and I doubt women seeking abortion would be seen as threats to society. Pro-lifers may argue that the choice affects the unborn child, but even they admit it's a clump of cells that could be a living being. The cases can't be compared, in my opinion. The point is, why should pro-choice mothers suffer the consequences of a pro-lifer's beliefs? </p>
<p>And aside from that, half the population isn't really lobbying for the legalization of rape or murder.
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As for suicide rates, do you have any evidence for you claim?
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I suppose experience doesn't count, does it? It depends, really. I've met women who were depressed after getting abortions, and I've met women who were depressed having a kid they never wanted and giving it away. I've just met more who couldn't get an abortion and didn't want to carry the child to term. I can't imagine being stuck in that situation.</p>
<p>Alex</p>
<p>My point is that something should not just be legal because prohibition would not completely stop the activity. </p>
<p>"it doesn't hurt anyone. It doesn't inconvenience anyone. It's a choice that affects the mother alone."</p>
<p>Are you joking me? What about the father? What about the mother's family and friends? What about the thousands of couples and individuals waiting in anxiety to adopt? What about the society that COULD have had a a wonderful addition but was robbed of the chance due to a single woman's selfishness?</p>
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Are you joking me? What about the father?
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No, I'm not joking and yes, I've thought about it. Women who get abortions usually aren't ready to be parents and the fathers generally aren't, either. But I would imagine abortions are generally joint decisions. It's really sad when a woman has one without the father's approval, but really, every case can't be ideal. In my opinion it's the woman's body and it's her choice - she's not responsible for the thousands of couples and individuals waiting to adopt. She's not responsible for the society that would have had a wonderful addition. I can definitely see how it can be selfish, but being selfish was never grounds for making something illegal.
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My point is that something should not just be legal because prohibition would not completely stop the activity.
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I see what you're saying, and I agree. Prohibition would not stop the activity, but it would just make it more unsafe for everyone. Backroom clinics? If they're going to do it anyway, would you rather them risk their health at the expense of someone else's beliefs? Forgive me, but I don't see how casting blame on the mother for depriving society of one member makes them selfish.</p>
<p>Alex</p>
<p><em>edit</em> I guess my point is, I just don't see the point of making it illegal. Would it really make pro-lifers feel better about society knowing women are resorting to backroom alley clinics? Are they really that spiteful? From what I've read so far, and I'm not referring to you, Janelle, it breaks my heart to see how hateful some of these posts are towards mothers who choose to abort. I know it's impossible to settle this debate, but at least we can be a bit more understanding towards the other side.</p>
<p>Not to exacerbate the argument with a relatively minor point, but...</p>
<p>There are already plenty of children out there in dire need of adoption.</p>
<p>Anyway.</p>
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Are you joking me? What about the father? What about the mother's family and friends? What about the thousands of couples and individuals waiting in anxiety to adopt? What about the society that COULD have had a a wonderful addition but was robbed of the chance due to a single woman's selfishness?
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<p>And what about the mother? What about her needs? Alex summed it up very succinctly in the post above: many women who get abortions are simply not ready to be parents. And children who are given up end up in foster care quite often.</p>
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What about the society that COULD have had a a wonderful addition but was robbed of the chance due to a single woman's selfishness?
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<p>Janelle, this perspective is really very childish. "Wonderful additions" to society don't just pop out of the womb--they require countless hours of emotional and physical support and hundreds of thousands of dollars of financial support before even reaching adulthood and being able to do anything productive for society. Raising a child is far more taxing on the mother and society than it is beneficial, as you say. Also, your implicit argument that abortion is detrimental to society really falls flat when you take into account the rapid decrease in crime rates in large cities such as Chicago and New York during the 1990's, a phenomenon Freakonomics author Dr. Steven Levitt attributes to the legalization of abortion in the 1970's (since the 1990's would have been the time in which the fetuses aborted in the 1970's and early 80's would have come of age [and many of them tragically turning to crime due in part to their poor childhood and unloving circumstances]).</p>
<p>By the way, I think this is the best summary of the abortion debate I have yet seen:
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I just don't see the point of making it illegal. Would it really make pro-lifers feel better about society knowing women are resorting to backroom alley clinics? Are they really that spiteful? From what I've read so far, and I'm not referring to you, Janelle, it breaks my heart to see how hateful some of these posts are towards mothers who choose to abort. I know it's impossible to settle this debate, but at least we can be a bit more understanding towards the other side.
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<p>kudos, alexx.</p>
<p>Janelle, there are THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS of children--already born-- waiting to be adopted by loving parents. Why do you care more about the potential lives of clumps of cells than you do about actual living, breathing, children?</p>
<p>^ That's a most inhumane description of life...</p>
<p>If you look at that way, everyone is just a clump of cells. What gives you a larger right to life than the millions of babies aborted every year? Because your parents actually decided to raise you?</p>
<p>What I see here is that one side is arguing that abortion is killing an innocent child, and the usual. We're killing and eating so many animals everyday and don't give a thought, while we freak out if we needed to kill a bunch of cells.</p>
<p>Difference plz?</p>
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If you look at that way, everyone is just a clump of cells.
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Yeah, the difference being they have no ability to think or feel. That's kind of the point - it's not a "life" to one side. </p>
<p>Or, like azndavinci said, cows are clumps of cells too, yet we raise them for slaughter anyway. x)</p>
<p>Alex</p>
<p>Janelle
I wasn't saying that the number of abortions would stay the same if they were outlawed, just that the number of dangerous ones would skyrocket.</p>
<p>I live in a veryyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy conservitive part of VA and it is refreshing to hear so many well though out viewpoints advocating pro-choice. I didn't know that there were more like me out there. ;)</p>