Dartmouth Dual-Degree Engineering with LAC

[sashwhodat]

Anyone have experience with Option 1 (2-1-1-1)?

Wondering how the students navigate moving back and forth the last 3 years, and how they integrate at Dartmouth during year 3 and 5. Also, how competitive is admission to this program?

Program website:

Dual-Degree

[Bill_Marsh]

I don’t have any experience with it, but it strikes me as similar to students who go abroad for junior year and then reintegrate when they come back for senior year. I guess the big question is whether splitting up the 2 years of engineering at Dartmouth disrupts the continuity of engineering study.

The thing I’ve never understood about these programs, regardless of whether they’re 3-2 or 2-1-1-1, is why anyone would want to spend 5 years of time and money to come away with 2 bachelor’s degrees. If you’re going to do 5 years, don’t you want to come away with a master’s?

[sashwhodat]

This article from Vassar’s website sheds some light - it’s not easy (or cheap), but doable:

So You Want To Be an Engineer? - The Vassar-Dartmouth Dual Degree Program

You make a good point that a masters degree makes more financial sense, but if you’re already enrolled in a liberal arts college without an engineering department, this is one of the only alternatives to transferring out.

[Bill_Marsh]

I’d have to be convinced that it’s worth it. You essentially are transferring out for your final 2 years but hanging around for a meaningless 3rd year at your original school, wasting both time and money. I suppose that there’s some consolation in getting an Ivy League degree out of it, but I don’t think that matters all that much in Engineering. And if the 5th year were a master’s in Engineering instead of a 2nd bachelor’s degree, I think that would easily outweigh any Ivy League prestige.

YMMV.

[circuitrider]

Unless I’m totally wrong, there aren’t any real-world alternatives that would make up for the lack of first-year engineering prerequisites. An actual masters would probably take six years instead of five. FWIW, the BE degree takes the same amount of time for Dartmouth students to complete as it does for the students from partner schools - except they don’t have to move between campuses:
Dartmouth Engineering | BE

[ucbalumnus]

@sashwhodat

but if you’re already enrolled in a liberal arts college without an engineering department, this is one of the only alternatives to transferring out.

Are you already enrolled at a liberal arts college without engineering?

It is basically transferring out, except that you do an extra year at your first college.

[circuitrider]

@ucbalumnus

It is basically transferring out, except that you do an extra year at your first college.

Mmm, except that it’s not. The junior year abroad analogy is how a majority of students would experience it.

[merc81]

Here is an extensive comment on this topic from a CC contributor from a few years ago (Hamilton rigor, post #13):

My son is a senior at Hamilton and doing the 2-1-1-1 combined engineering with Dartmouth. Originally he thought he wanted to pursue the Columbia 3-2 and major in Mechanical engineering. For Dartmouth you apply in your Sophomore year and for Columbia you apply in your Junior year. Columbia used to be guaranteed admission provided you meet some very specific course and grade requirements and once admitted for a specific major you were locked in. You could not change it. I am really glad my son decided to pursue the Dartmouth plan. It was definitely a better fit for him for a variety of reasons. Once he started at Dartmouth he realized that he liked Electrical Engineering , more than Mechanical and was able to pursue that without any issues. Also, the Dartmouth curriculum is much more project oriented and has more of an entrepreneurial focus which is what he wanted. He felt that his Hamilton education prepared him extremely well for Dartmouth. He was studying with students from Williams, Amherst, Bowdoin, Middlebury, Vassar, Colby and he felt he often took more physics courses at Hamilton and had more course requirements waived at Dartmouth than students from these other extremely selective LACs. One other thing that was a better fit for him was the format at Dartmouth. When most of his Hamilton friends were studying abroad, he was at Dartmouth. He is now back at Hamilton for his senior senior, and will graduate with his friends in May. Also, Dartmouth is growing their engineering program and is likely to admit more students in the coming years. They also have preferential/guaranteed acceptance for their MS, MEM, ME and Phd programs for current students who maintain a certain GPA or higher. For him, the Dartmouth plan was a much better fit than the 3-2 at Columbia.

[Bill_Marsh]

I’m the one who made the junior year abroad analogy. But those students don’t spend a 5th year to get an undergraduate degree.

[merc81]

@Bill_Marsh

But those students don’t spend a 5th year to get an undergraduate degree.

Well, 2–1–1–1 students spend an additional year to earn two undergraduate degrees.

[Bill_Marsh]

@circuitrider

Unless I’m totally wrong, there aren’t any real-world alternatives that would make up for the lack of first-year engineering prerequisites. An actual masters would probably take six years instead of five. FWIW, the BE degree takes the same amount of time for Dartmouth students to complete as it does for the students from partner schools - except they don’t have to move between campuses:
Dartmouth Engineering | BE

The link doesn’t say that. It says that it’s possible to do it in 4 years or more commonly one OR two semesters beyond the normal 4 years.

Regardless, the fact that many Dartmouth students spend 5 years to get their engineering degree doesn’t make it a good idea when students all over the country are doing it in 4. And 6 years for a master’s means that it would take 7 years for a master’s for someone coming out of a 5 year bachelor’s program.

There are a number of engineering master’s programs for non-engineering undergrads. Pitt’s is an example of one which can be accomplished in 3 graduate semesters. That means 5.5 years for a bachelor’s + master’s vs 5 years for 2 bachelor’s degrees. I know which one I’d choose.

[Bill_Marsh]

@merc81

@Bill_Marsh

But those students don’t spend a 5th year to get an undergraduate degree.

Well, 2–1–1–1 students spend an additional year to earn two undergraduate degrees.

So?

[circuitrider]

@Bill_Marsh

The link doesn’t say that.

No need to hire a lawyer. Easy enough to cut and paste the exact wording:

The BE degree generally takes 1 to 3 terms of additional study, depending on the courses taken during the first 4 years. (Advanced standing on entry to Dartmouth may shorten the time required.) Most add a fifth year to earn the BE (financial aid is available), but students may also plan ahead to finish a combined AB+BE in four years.

@Bill_Marsh

Regardless, the fact that many Dartmouth students spend 5 years to get their engineering degree doesn’t make it a good idea when students all over the country are doing it in 4.

This program is not for everyone. It’s for kids who want to pursue a liberal arts degree in engineering.

[gardenstategal]

I’ve known several kids who were admitted to this program. A few chose to bail before year 3. I’ve also known kids who did the 2 degrees in 5 years at one school (i.e., Tufts.)

First of all, this is a good option for a student who is really torn between an engineering degree and a social science/ humanities degree. Electrical engineering and Japanese. Civil engineering and political science. Some students, however, are just as happy doing a double major in physics and Japanese or Urban studies and Political Science, and I think it’s wise to consider alternatives. The engineering degree enables different options, and it’s important to work out whether those are ones you want.

As for the social element, many students at these LACs are itching for a change of scenery junior year, and heading to Hanover achieves this, at least in terms of new faces. Less so for the kid who wanted out of rural Maine for a few months in London or Madrid. But junior year at the original LAC is likely to have its own social shifts because of students going abroad. Coming back senior year and getting to enjoy that with LAC friends is generally a high note. I have heard less about the experience in year 5, but I’d assume it’s nice to connect with your Dartmouth cohort.

If you are an athlete, you’re better off doing both degrees at the same school. But I doubt you’d feel too disconnected from your LAC friends as a result of this.

[Unattswim56]

It is a good program for somebody unsure whether they want to do engineering in College coming out of high school. If one knows they want to do engineering in high school, they should just go to an engineering school. Contrary to what some have said above, it’s not like you can major in English or other humanities and do this program easily. You still have to take around 6-8 STEM prerequisites. The majority of people doing this program are still physics, math, or computer science majors (you could do chemistry/biochemistry if you do chemical engineering), so I wouldn’t say you get a ton more liberal arts classes than just a 4-year engineering degree. It is worth noting that Dartmouth does not have certain engineering areas like Civil or Aerospace. If one wants to be a PE, an ABET undergrad is necessary and the majority of masters are not ABET, and certain states will not let you sit for the PE exam.

[circuitrider]

@Unattswim56

The majority of people doing this program are still physics, math, or computer science majors (you could do chemistry/biochemistry if you do chemical engineering), so I wouldn’t say you get a ton more liberal arts classes than just a 4-year engineering degree.

That makes perfect sense, Then again, I was using the term “liberal arts” as shorthand for “liberal arts and sciences”.

[cquin85]

I think those of us in the LAC crowd should make a pact to stop using the acronym “LAC” and never use the shorthand with out saying “and sciences.”

This is for all the uninformed opinion hawks who think poetry and gender studies when they hear “Liberal Arts College”. Or for the extremely uninformed, those that think the “liberal” part references a political persuasion.