<p>"I'd say its rivals are Middlebury, Williams and maybe Amherst"</p>
<p>Do they even play each other?</p>
<p>Actually, Xanatos, I'd say Yalebound72 is right. The brilliant kids who care only about prestige are going to apply to Harvard, Yale, and Princeton. The brilliant kids who want the best undergraduate education to be had are going to go for Dartmouth, Amherst, and Williams. So yes, I would say that Harvard, Yale, and Princeton fight for the same group of kids, while the smaller colleges "in the sticks" have a different group from which to choose. It's pretty obvious who gets the better deal. Go Big Green!!!!!</p>
<p>Those teeny-tinies are not Dartmouth "rivals" - certainly not in the athletic sense - although they may be second or third choice schools for a certain subset of Dartmouth applicants. </p>
<p>Dartmouth regularly takes 80% or more of the common admits from the teeny-tinies.</p>
<p>Hmm, well, you were intending that to be a compliment, so I guess I can't yell at you :)</p>
<p>Dartmouth is the standard-bearer, if you will, for schools that emphasize substance over style. That is, Harvard may have more name-recognition, but it's also gotten a reputation for grade inflation and overrated undergrad. Dartmouth values things like caring professors and undergraduate excellence more than prestige. But, we are nevertheless still an Ivy. So, it's our job to represent the little guys by sticking it to Harvard wherever and however we can.</p>
<p>Please don't call me an arrogant Ivy League prick...</p>
<p>Cornell. We hate Dartmouth. Dartmouth hates us. We also hate Harvard. But we kick both of your asses in hockey. In fact, despite our road loss to you guys, I'll be looking on as we pummel you guys on Friday in Ithaca.</p>
<p>Well, what happens at Lynah happens...but I do recall what happened last year, when Cornell fans were assuring themselves of a win at home...this: </p>
<p>"Dartmouth regularly takes 80% or more of the common admits from the teeny-tinies"</p>
<p>where did you get this? is it just an assumption that you have absolutly no back up for? or something more profound? i thought dartmouth and AWS broke even?</p>
<p>also, for some reason i always bunched brown and dartmouth together. probably because theyre both so color oriented.</p>
<p>Umm Dartmouth is better than Cornell at hockey which is why we've been them in two of our last three meetings.</p>
<p>Dartmouth has a higher yield rate than any of the teeny-tinies, even though it is far more likely to go head-to-head with (and lose cross admits to) Harvard, Yale, Princeton and Stanford. It handily tops all teeny-tinies for cross admits by varying degrees.</p>
<p>please stop referring to liberal arts colleges as teeny-tinies. it makes you come across as a todler. if it's easier for you, you can try the three letter acronym. LAC.</p>
<p>incidentally, you are also wrong.</p>
<p><a href="http://papers.nber.org/papers/w10803.pdf%5B/url%5D">http://papers.nber.org/papers/w10803.pdf</a>
refer to page 29 and note the position of amherst (a LAC), based on the number of cross admits</p>
<p>alternatively you can look here (while looking up the definition of the term "handidly")
<a href="http://collegeadmissions.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/laissez-faire-1999-2000.txt%5B/url%5D">http://collegeadmissions.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/laissez-faire-1999-2000.txt</a>
note the positions of amherst, swarthmore, and williams</p>
<p>I am well aware of the "revealed preference" rankings, where Amherst is one slot ahead of Dartmouth (although no other teeny-tinies are.) But you have to understand that while the "revealed preference rankings" are meaningful composites, they do not decree head to head outcomes in every case.</p>
<p>You have to understand the fairly rigid, winner take all nature of elite admissions, and the historic head-to-heads between various schools.</p>
<p>For example, Yale may rank #2 among all schools, right behind Harvard, but nevertheless Harvard traditionally takes 4 out of 5 common admits from Yale - far better than it does against, say, MIT.</p>
<p>Dartmouth may lose 9 out of 10 to Ivy rival Harvard, and lose to Ivy rivals Yale and Princeton by narrower margins, but it makes up a great deal of ground against the teeny tinies with whom it shares a smaller pool of people willing (or anxious) to go to school in the boondocks.</p>
<p>Byerly, where do you get your numbers from? I am honestly curious and do not mean to start a fight (really). I have always had trouble figuring this out, especially after reading the last Hoxby paper (2004). </p>
<p>I am no statistician, and I might have totally misinterpreted the data, but the difference in "elo" points between harvard and yale is around 62 (from Table 3, Section V.A, pages 27-29). Doesn't that mean that Harvard wins over Yale in preference somewhere around 60% (55-64) of the time (an estimate from the previous table on what difference in elo points means). That said, Hoxby's paper is 96% confident that Harvard ranks higher than Yale and 100% over MIT</p>
<p>Well I know all the cross admit numbers for Harvard for the last few years, but they haven't been published and are understandably considered "sensitive," and I can't post them here. </p>
<p>There are, however, varioius Harvard Crimson and Yale Daily News/Herald stories where somebody who knows what they're talking about acknowledges the fairly standard 4:1 ratio, and I could certainly dig them out - or you could Google them yourself. Usually vs. Stanford and Princeton its more like 3:1, and narrower against MIT, although the numbers do vary from year to year. (With MIT, Harvard is oibviously going head to head for applicants from a more science-oriented pool - a so-called "self-selecting" pool within which Tech has a powerful draw.)</p>
<p>But basically you're going to have to take it on faith that I'm telling the truth or, to the contrary, think I'm making it all up. In most yrears recently, the croos-admit pool was larger with Stanford than with Yale, although the Harvard/Yale pool was larger for 2008.</p>
<p>To my knowledge, the only recent posting of partial data was from Stanford for the Class of 2008, and I don't think the Admissions Office was pleased about its release, even though it related to losses only and not to "wins"</p>
<p>Thanks Byerly,</p>
<p>I don't think you are making this up. I can't find a crimson/ydn article giving stats. But I remember from college that something like 3/4 choose harvard over yale which is why I was suprised to learn in the Hoxby paper that it was much lower, 10% over statistically equal. I realize that cross admit data is not released (often) so all of this must be taken with a grain of salt.<br>
From your data, is the Hoxby paper wrong on its preference rankings?</p>
<p>You also have to bear in mind that the "revealed preference" data is based on a survey - a large, scientific survey of "top students" from a selection of cooperating secondary schools to be sure - but hardly the entire numbers for any school in any year.</p>
<p>I've earlier noted that Dsartmouth takes a shellacking from the top Ivies but does well vs its countryside rivals - making it the clear "#1 rural" choice.</p>
<p>I've seen detailed numbers for Middlebury online that show it losing 85% of common admits to Dartmouth, competing fairly evenly with AWS, and cleaning up against the Maine schools.</p>
<p>So many applicants tend to see a "pecking order" and will go heavily to one school over another, given a choice, in many cases.</p>
<p>When averaging things out, the "revealed preference" rankings don't always pick up these sharp distinctions between specific schools in attraction for common applicants and common admits.</p>
<p>Byerly, you're back-peddling and you're going to get called on it.</p>
<p>First you say: Dartmouth handidly tops the "teeny-tinies" for cross admits (in specific reference to a rivalry with Amherst or Williams)</p>
<p>Then after, I pointed out you were wrong, you came up with a smug reply only to called on your numbers again and then say:
Dartmouth competes fairly evenly with AWS </p>
<p>That's what we thought, Byerly (as does the Laissez-Faire ranking, the Atlantic Monthly ranking, and the revealed preferences above)</p>
<p>Please refrain from making up numbers and citing reports you clearly do not understand. And if you claim otherwise, be ready to bring it on because we can get into all kinds of gross inacuracies in your above posts, starting with the specific mathematical algorithm behind revealed preference.</p>
<p>You are confused.</p>
<p>I said DARTMOUTH handily tops the teeny tinies with respect to cross admits.</p>
<p>You have nowhere pointed out that I was "wrong."</p>
<p>The reference to competing "fairly evenly with AWS" in cross admit numbers related to MIDDLEBURY, if you will read carefully.</p>
<p>I understand these numbers fairly well.</p>
<p>You seem to have a problem with words, as well as numbers.</p>
<p>huh? scroll up and read your own posts byerly</p>
<p>you might be right about my problem with words though because i'm staring at what you've written right now and clearly we're seeing different things</p>
<p>unless you don't know what "cross-admit" means perhaps? a cross-admit is when you are accepted at two schools (dartmouth and amherst for instance). does that help?</p>
<p>id like to see the detailed numbers that show middlebury breaking even with AWS. it just doesnt sound right. and the fact that harvard/yale admits would go 3:1? thats crazy? why would you EVER choose harvard over yale?</p>