<p>It is hard for me to understand how one can apply ED to a school without understanding the financial reality and the ED commitment. In our high school, any ED applications require a three-way meeting between the student, the parents and the guidance counselor. Without parental approval, the guidance dept will not move on forwarding the required material… not only to protect the students, but also to avoid future repercussions for the next class of seniors.</p>
<p>bookmama - now that my older son is a sophomore and I have been through the FA maze once - I agree with you. But in reality - when my son was a hs senior and applying to colleges - he applied ED to a very expensive school. We really did not understand that we might not get enough FA to make it work. Now as it turned out, he was deferred and later rejected - so I’ll never know what might have happened. But if he had been accepted - we could have found ourselves in this exact predicament. </p>
<p>My sons, like many posters here, attend a large public hs with very little counseling given. His GC at the time was a complete idiot who lost paperwork constantly - we certainly would not have turned to her for advice.</p>
<p>I think a lot of colleges promote the idea that they give lots of FA and I think the general understanding out there - in the public - is that there is much scholarship money available for high stat kids.</p>
<p>I really have not seen many colleges discouraging students from applying ED for financial reasons. And I think that parents and students get very caught up in the admissions process itself - and give less thought to actually paying for college - I know I did.</p>
<p>So - I’m much better educated today and I try to educate others as to what I have learned. But I would never say that it is hard to understand how some people get themselves in these ED messes - it seems to happen to a lot of well-meaning people and I would rather try to help them then rub their noses in it.</p>
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I had to explain to a GC at my kids’ HS what the UC A-G requirements were (i.e. that these requirements exist and are referred to as ‘A-G’) and where to find info related to it (the ‘UC Pathways’ website - this GC had never heard of it). This clueless GC had no knowledge of any of this whatsoever. Fortunately I was able to get my kid switched to the only GC who knew something despite the starting letter of our last name which is how they assign GCs. One can’t expect too much out of a GC at a public HS where there might be a GC/student ration of 1/500 and they spend most of their time with the problem students and expect the top ones to take care of themselves.</p>
<p>One can’t expect too much out of a GC at a public HS where there might be a GC/student ration of 1/500 and they spend most of their time with the problem students and expect the top ones to take care of themselves.</p>
<p>Or even as in the case of my daughters high school, the counseling office was forced to take someone who had been fired from their coaching job at another city high school because of ethical issues, however the powers that be decided he could still work as a guidance counselor. :rolleyes:. From what I have seen, he still thinks that the rules that everyone else lives under don’t apply to him, so I imagine the rest of the counselors have to pick up a lot of slack.</p>
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Sometimes it’s the student’s fault; but it can also be the school’s fault. If only one section is open when you register, and that time conflicts with your part-time job, is that your fault? If you don’t decide your major until sophomore spring (standard at most LACs and private liberal arts universities), you ought still to be able to graduate on time. Given the chances of a college student changing his/her major, I think it’s unfair to blame the student for taking longer to graduate because they didn’t pick a major before freshman year (at age 18) and stick to it.</p>
<p>For many kids, it is just not realistic for them to KNOW what their passion will be as they learn and grow in college. My S was fortunate that he has done well the school he entered (engineering), but my D has had to do a lot of exporing to figure out what will work well for her. When finances are a huge issue, decisions need to be made more urgently than sometimes the student is prepared for. With a friend’s child, she came back home & worked while taking a few courses at local U to sort out what she wanted to major in. For our D, she was able to do some of this while attending CC and saving us significant $$.</p>
<p>Majors like engineering and architecture and others with fairly rigid curriculum don’t allow much time for exploration and if you opt into or out of these fields, it can set you considerably back on your graduation date. Trying to transfer into “impacted and/or competitive majors” at schools can also take a considerable amount of doing and several efforts.</p>
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<p>Feel free to tell that to several in-state cousins and colleagues who had to graduate UCB or UCLA in 4.5-5 years because a critical core/major course either did not offer enough available sections and they ended up getting shut out of them or they were unavailable for the semester, year, or sometimes even two years during their first 4 years. </p>
<p>None of them were slackers of any kind and most were STEM fields (Engineering, biochemistry, or computer science being the three most common ones among them). </p>
<p>Moreover, if this really wasn’t an issue, why did the admissions staff of both UCB and UCLA feel they had to inform my high school classmates and their parents to anticipate graduating in 5-6 years rather than 4 during an admitted students session? First I heard about this was actually from a classmate’s mother who was there…and the account was confirmed by several other classmates and some of their parents who were present as well.</p>
<p>Selling your house to save your child’s life. Absolutely. </p>
<p>Selling your house to finance your child’s education in a college you can’t afford. Ridiculous.</p>
<p>This MIGHT makes some sense if she were unable to get a quality education any where else or for less money. But she can and she should. </p>
<p>DO NOT shoulder her with the burden of your losing your mind and selling your house ‘FOR’ her. No child want’s that pressure or guilt unnecessarily.</p>
<p>Universities and colleges are marketed to us like automobiles. Our teens are preyed upon and duped by the mailings and e-mails that they are bombarded with on a daily basis. Admission offices are trained in teen psychology at seminars to create a notion of college as a four year resort experience. US News is complicit in this sham by creating a system that places schools into “tiers”. Bull to all of it. I spoke to the ED of the Phi Beta Kappa society in DC years ago who informed me in this way. 100 years ago there was a big difference between the University of Alabama and Harvard. NOT ANY LONGER. There are great schools and great professors all across the land. Some charge more based on hype and image, others charge less. Find the school with value and quality. I can travel from Maine to California in my uncle’s caddy, or my nephew’s dodge. I’ll reach the Pacific in the same amount of time, seeing the same sights of America along the way. Avoid the caddies of higher education. Trust your instincts and trust in God to care for your child’s future.</p>
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<p>For parents old enough to have kids in college, retirement savings need to be a priority. (See related thread). You are in a tough situation here, but I think you need to jump off the ED train before it crashes.</p>
<p>D. did not apply to colleges that we could not afford. We ended up not paying for her UG tuition because of Merit $$. I did not care too much where she is going for UG, I knew that she would do great everywhere. We were correct, she is going to Med. School next year as a result of her doing great in UG. We are planning to pay, since we did not pay for her UG.
So, here is my advice: go any place, do good and you will be just fine.</p>
<p>I did not mean to rub anyone’s noses the wrong way. Our high school guidance counselor was close to useless also. I was thankful that all the paperwork for both my daughter’s application process went through smoothly. but aside from that… the guidance counselor does need to submit their part of the application, the transcripts and other paperwork required on their end and the ED discussion is one that is discussed in detail at required parent college planning nights in junior year twice and in required individual parent/child parent conferences. I agree that it is easy to get carried away by hype and some guidance counselors push ED and rolling admissions… if you apply ED to one school and get in, or if you are happy with a rolling admission… less work for them. I pointed this out to my husband when our guidance counselor suggested my daughter who wanted a medium-sized East Coast school with flexible study options in science and art, as well as study abroad should apply early and get accepted to Michigan Honors…had she been happy with that, he would not have to do any more work for her at all. We knew we would not qualify for FA and were looking at schools know for good merit $$ although our oldest did submit to a few Ivys understanding that merit money would not be likely forthcoming on that end. Younger was applying to mix of conservatories and universities, so different scenario entirely.</p>
<p>Cobrat: Nobody who attends UCB or UCLA is a slacker. All people are saying is the fact that the majority can graduate in 4 yrs. That is our experience as the parents paying the tuition.What we are saying is it’s a bit like all news, especially local; dire and negative and very often the actual people involved in the situation don’t experience what is being reported as “news”. As in when the Santa Ana’s start fires, mud slides in Nor. Cal, murders reported on every news cast etc. Same re: the UC’s - we are just saying, don’t believe everything you read or hear, it’s still a great education, still a great experience and 4 years graduation for most. The state is in a fiscal crisis, but the UC’s are still doing a great job. With the economy the way it is, it is important to get information out there. Should OOS tuition be paid? No, probably not. Cal and UCLA finally cost OOS and International’s an amount not heavily subsidized by taxpayers. And that is fine.</p>
<p>If you feel you must stick with the 5-6 yr graduation scenario- please do for you, but it is not the norm, and should not be used to justify a 50,000 a year tuition school because you will not have to pay for more than 4 years vs UCB or UCLA being 5-6 yrs. Just not true.</p>
<p>But this is not the thread so let’s agree to disagree…</p>
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<p>So you’re saying the dozens of in-state cousins and colleagues who recounted took 4.5-5 years from UCB and UCLA from the mid-1980s and throughout the 1990’s because of the difficulties regarding required core/major courses did not exist? </p>
<p>Don’t know…but considering they actually attended such schools and experienced this issue firsthand…they’re not imaginary or spreaders of second-hand information as the above comment implies. </p>
<p>From their accounts and from hearing from parents and HS classmates who heard directly from the admissions staff themselves this was a serious issue…that’s a sign of a serious systemic problem at the two UCs. Problems that were occurring during the late '80’s and throughout the '90s. Considering they’d be paying OOS tuition and risk taking longer to graduate while the private LACs/smaller universities at the same/slightly lower ranked levels were offering better FA/scholarship packages…it made no sense for them to take the risk. </p>
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<p>If I was contemplating applying to UCB/UCLA atm, it would be to their graduate/professional school divisions. Divisions which their renowned academic reputations are mostly based because of the research/graduates produced and where attending them seems more likely to have a much greater impact/benefit.</p>
<p>From the UCB Common Data Set - 66% graduate in 4 years. That goes up to 87% in 5 years. <a href=“http://cds.berkeley.edu/pdfs/PDF%20wBOOKMARKS%2009-10.pdf[/url]”>http://cds.berkeley.edu/pdfs/PDF%20wBOOKMARKS%2009-10.pdf</a>
From the UCLA CDS - 67% graduate in 4 years and 87+% in 5 years. [UCLA</a> Office of Analysis and Information Management | AIM](<a href=“http://www.aim.ucla.edu/cds/cdsForm.asp#cdsB]UCLA”>http://www.aim.ucla.edu/cds/cdsForm.asp#cdsB)</p>
<p>In both cases those numbers are higher than the average for public and private schools.</p>
<p>As someone with two recent grads from UCLA and UCSD and knowledge of their roomies and friends, I’d be quite confident of sending my kid to a UC and not be highly concerned about them graduating in a reasonable timeframe. Maybe something’s changed drastically in this regard since last June but I doubt it. I know there have been some changes in this regard within the last year and that some might need to be flexible and sometimes aggressive in making sure they get courses they need but I don’t think it’s drastic. </p>
<p>People need to keep in mind that a lot of people who take longer to graduate at some of these universities do so because they can - i.e. because they’re not paying $50K/yr to attend (assuming in-state) they have the flexibility to change their majors more often, to take lighter course loads, perhaps because they have a part time job, to pursue a quite different minor, to explore more. They also might take longer if they’re a commuter student which the UCs have a fair number of - commuter students typically take a lighter load so they don’t need to go to campus M-F and may take longer to graduate as a result. </p>
<p>It does require some planning, flexibility, and sometimes some initiative and aggressiveness to get the courses one wants - i.e. they might need to take an 8am course, a Friday course, a different course to meet a requirement, or pushing to get into an already full course or to go outside of the stock pre-reqs for a course. It might mean not dropping/retaking courses too many times to try to get that manipulated high GPA for those planning to go to med school.</p>
<p>A snapshot of some stats - </p>
<p>At UCLA for the 2009-2010 CDS, of the 3810 undergrads who graduated in 6 years or less (i.e. tossing out those who don’t graduate at all or have some unusual reason to take a long time), 2867 graduated within 4 years or less and 882 graduated in more than 4 but in 5 years or less. This means that 75% graduated in 4 years or less and 98% graduated in 5 or less and I’m sure many (but not all) of the ones who took longer could have shortened it up if they really wanted to and tried.</p>
<p>I know Cobrat said the reps of UCB/UCLA said to expect longer to graduate but it just doesn’t make sense why they’d do that unless there are drastic changes within the last year. The fact that they said it means it should be worth finding out why they said this and how true it is. </p>
<p>Edit - I cross posted with Erin’s Dad and my percentages may be different because I used as a total those who graduated within 6 years and tossed out the diff between the number initially enrolled and who apparently didn’t graduate (or took some very long time which would be die to something beyond ability to get courses).</p>
<p>“but I think you need to jump off the ED train before it crashes.”</p>
<p>I’m not sure what you mean by that, what does “crash” mean? The school told us (before we entered the agreement) that if the financial aid package didn’t work out for us, we could get out of the agreement. I called the FA office before the holidays and asked them “when do we have to commit by?” she seemed puzzled by this question and said there was no deadline. She said we had to make our first payment by May, and that’s the only deadline she knows of. I’ll call them back tomorrow, it doesn’t make sense to me. I think they’d want to know ASAP so they can give the spot to someone else.</p>
<p>As far as applying ED to a school we can’t afford, how could we have known what FA package they would offer without applying? Since we are able to opt out if the FA package isn’t workable what’s the harm? Am I missing something? I admit I’m not familiar with all the ins and outs of the whole ED process, this is a first for us. Maybe you can educate me?</p>
<p>I don’t think applying ED is really a big deal. I’ve heard people who say that you get an admissions bump, and that’s probably true (although I’ve never seen it quantified). I’ve also heard of cases where someone applies ED and has to reply by a certain date (ie, they can’t apply ED and then wait until Regular Decisions have already been accepted before responding). Personally, I wouldn’t bother with it myself. Enough schools do Early Action that you can probably avoid doing Early Decision if your main concern is just getting accepted earlier to anywhere, and I don’t think that the bump from ED is really all that significant at top schools.</p>
<p>Simbot - generally when someone applies ED and are accepted - they have to make their enrollment deposit early - usually it’s a January deadline. Did your D actually apply ED? I would direct that question (assuming she did apply ED) to admissions rather than FA. Usually you have to either make the deposit by the specified date or formally request to be released from the ED agreement due to the FA issue.</p>
<p>The general wisdom is that those with financial need should not apply ED as it gives you no opportunity to compare FA pkgs from various schools. Also - you risk the heartbreak of being accepted, but then not being able to attend for financial reasons. You are correct that you can opt out if you determine it will not work financially - but I think the previous poster might have been referring to the distress this decision would bring to your spouse and D.</p>
<p>So - call Monday (admissions) and find out what your options are - is there a deadline to pay the enrollment deposit - can you get an extension on this if you are still speaking with the FA office and trying to work things out.</p>
<p>If this is not an ED situation - then you have until May to decide - I think that is what the person in the financial aid office was referring to. It just seems a little confusing to me whether she did apply binding ED or not.</p>
<p>ED does give one a significant admissions bump at many schools. Here is a link with some interesting data:</p>
<p>[Early-Decision</a> Applications Surge at Vanderbilt, George Washington and Dartmouth - NYTimes.com](<a href=“http://thechoice.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/11/18/ed/]Early-Decision”>Early-Decision Applications Surge at Vanderbilt, George Washington and Dartmouth - The New York Times)</p>
<p>However, the ED admissions rates can also be somewhat misleading as this will also include recruited athletes and legacies. I think ED is a great choice for students who do not need FA, for a school that does not offer early action as an option and for students who have a clear first choice school.</p>
<p>But it has its risks as well. The FA issue is one. Another is a student who applies ED just to get the process over with - and then regrets what they have done by the spring. So clearly, ED is not the right choice for everyone.</p>