Daughter is driving us insane with indecision

Parent Cafe
41

You could also use the $80k as a way to force the issue. “We know we said money is not a consideration, but it really IS, and you need to consider it. We want you to go to Richmond, spend $80k on study abroad and doing internships in DC, and not worrying about how much things cost. You’ll have no student loans, you’ll be free to start life after college any way you want.”

I really think your daughter wants to hear this. She wants you to pick Richmond for her. She accepted the waitlist spot because she really wanted to go there.

42

I know the OP doesn’t have a problem making the decision, but has she asked if the parents even have an opinion? Our child was plagued by indecision, and eventually asked us (separately) if we had an opinion. We were glad she was close enough to deciding to be able even to ask! I said yes, I think either of the final choices would be terrific, but I did have an opinion about which which might be better for her. We were glad she chose the school we preferred, but especially glad that SHE made the final decision.

Later in life, we know that choosing a college is not
actually the most important choice a person will ever make. But in this culture, it’s the first truly adult decision they are making. That’s a lot of pressure, and it’s important that they own that decision.

43

Going to through this process, as frustrating as it might be, hasn’t been in vain. The OP/parents have changed opinions themselves since the start of this thread from pushing for American to pushing for Richmond.

44

IMO, there’s nothing wrong with asking for advice or input. When I make professional decisions, I ask my colleagues, mentors, and friends.

45

@DragonBoatGirl Hey there, I know little about AU outside it being a great school. Just throwing in that we’ve had one kid graduate UR last year and one just finish up his first year. They’ve really loved UR despite not being preppy, not being rich, not being in the Greek system. They’ve developed very strong relationships with their professors and departments which has helped them a lot. They get a lot of kudos for having more balanced classroom discussions in terms of allowing different beliefs to be heard respectfully. My eldest has a lot of anxiety in general and their counseling program really helped her keep a balance during such a period of rapid changes.

Of course, 80k can pay for a lot of perks including summer internships in DC (though one internship will be paid by Richmond.) wherever she lands will give her countless opportunity.

46

When we visited AU and my kid sat in on a class, she thought it lacked rigor. The class was focused on a recent article in a national magazine that my kid happened to have read. It was pretty clear to her that some of the students hadn’t done the reading, and she thought in general that the depth of the class discussion was lacking. On average UR students have higher test scores. You might bring that up if you haven’t, since I think you said she’d expressed a concern about the level of students at AU in one of your early posts.

47

Outlier here. Our kid visited U of Richmond and really hated it. Too conservative for her. And it’s really not near Richmond unless you have a car. It’s a great school for many, many kids, but it’s not the right school for everyone.

If this kid wants to be in a urban area…AU Beats Richmond hands down. That’s my kid’s opinion.

48

Let the kid decide unless the new acceptance and finances just won’t work! I can’t imagine talking for hours about this!

49

I would emphasize to her that making choices is part of life. With these kinds of decisions, you have a lot of information and you also lack a lot of information. Who really knows how the social vibe will play out, for example? Will you end up loving a professor or class and will it alter your course of study? It does sound like she needs to be somewhere where she can explore her options.

In general, the more good decisions you make, the more good outcomes you have, but sometimes a good decision has a bad outcome. (And vice versa!)

All she can do is make a good choice now (which for me would be Richmond), and move forward without looking back. If, for some reason, she finds herself very unhappy there, she can transfer. Very few choices are permanent and can’t be remedied with a change of course. (Except tattoos!!)

I would talk through with her what is making this so hard. (There’s a good self-learning exercise here.) I have a family member who is really indecisive-- also the one who has spent a lifetime regretting every bad decision she’s made. The need to “hit a home run” on every decision (to avoid regret) makes swinging the bat really tough.

This decision is about college but she can also use it in her personal case study on making choices.

50

Since this is the case I’d choose Richmond. The $80k could be used for grad school.

51

Less money for grad school? Right now, you are looking at undergrad school. Do you have the money to pay for AU? Presumably so because you allowed her to choose that college.

This kid might not ever GO to grad school. Or she might have an employer who pays some of grad school costs. Or she might work and go to grad school part time.

You let her choose AU. You actually wanted that to stick when this thread started. Not sure why the money issue is coming up now. That should have come up before applications were sent.

52

I really hate the constant “use the money for grad school” thing. One of my kids we were SURE she’d go to grad school (not that we needed to save money for that as it would be science PhD-- funded). She graduated and is a happy camper working. Why is there this assumption that anyone who’s anyone goes to grad school?

53

OP- one more thing- if you haven’t already told your daughter “there is no perfect college” then you need to. ASAP.

Teenagers believe there is a dream college, a dream house, a dream spouse, a dream job. Adults know that even when you’re enjoying college, there will be a class which is deadly dull, or WAY hard, or an annoying roommate who chews gum loudly, or a library where you can only get a study carrel if you show up at 5pm, not at 7 when you are done with dinner. The dream house is on a busy street, the dream spouse forgets your birthday, the dream job has an hour long commute each way.

Adulthood is a long series of trade-offs; but of finding the trade-offs that work for you. Teenagers don’t know this. One of the reasons why watching their decision-making can be so frustrating.

So if your D thinks that by MORE cogitating she’s going to come to the perfect decision, lift that burden from her shoulders. Everything in life involves a trade-off. Which you guys well know.

I live in the perfect house (for me). Friendly and diverse neighborhood, close to public transportation and walkable to stores, library, banks, parks, etc. It was affordable when we bought it, and it looks like we’ll make some money when we’re ready to downsize and retire. It’s in a pretty ugly development (just an architectural period which is better forgotten) and it has taken a lot of time to get rid of the coral and turquoise color schemes, the mirrored walls everywhere, the hideous shag carpeting, etc because as all home-owners know, if you want the house with the right visuals/decor, you either can’t afford it, or it’s in the neighborhood you don’t want to live in. So we “settled” for the ugly house in the right place, and over 20 years can slowly afford to make it look less like a disco (yes, it had a disco ball for lighting) and more like where we like to hang out.

That was the right trade-off for me. I have friends who live further out from the city where you have to get in your car everytime you need a gallon of milk-- but they bought newer houses with a nicer aesthetic. The right trade-off for them.

You can liberate your D from the prison of perfection!!!

54

FWIW my son who majored in IR at Tufts (and also was not a fan of economics!) wished in retrospect he’d just majored in history with a focus on security studies. He really, really disliked political science as a discipline. He loved American, by the way and his best friend majored in IR there.

55

@donnaleighg But it doesn’t have to be for grad school – it could be for a wedding fund, or earlier retirement, or something else.

I always think of choices in terms of marginal cost/value. So if my two choices are otherwise neck-and-neck, and I can’t decide between them, but one of those choices costs 80K more than the other? My decision has been made.

Of course it’s trickier when the more expensive option is somewhat better, but in evaluating my daughter’s college choices we always began by lining them up by cost. It made her final decision much easier.

56

I really, really appreciate the feedback everyone has offered, including the observations on ‘life’ as well as college decisions. I realized a couple of things last night that might make a difference. Financially, I relied on DH’s calculations; however looking at it again, I don’t believe he’s analyzing it correctly.

Because the financial aid at Richmond is need-based and American is mostly (three-quarters) merit based, there is a very good chance that it will change in the future. I have been looking for work for quite a while, and am now studying for an additional certification in my field, which I believe will help a lot. I assume that I’m going to find something soon which will add at least $60k to our income. Even more important from the financial point of view, we both have parents that are elderly and quite ill. It’s likely that (unfortunately) we will be inheriting some unknown amount of money in the next couple of years. (I’d rather have the parents than the money, but we don’t have a choice about it). My DH didn’t want to consider that because it’s not something we want or hope for, but realistically this is something likely to happen in the next four years. The amount is unknown and unknowable because right now there are expenses for assisted living, but is unlikely to be trivial and could be very significant. There is also a potential settlement or verdict from a lawsuit, again the amount cannot be predicted.

Based on this, there is a possibility that DD would lose some, most, or all of her merit aid. It’s unlikely but possible for any of the above contingencies to occur during the rest of the year, but it is possible. The possibility will be stronger as time goes on.

DH was also adding the awarded $20k in subsidized (Stafford) student loans towards the 80k figure. Of course having our daughter take out $20k in loans is something to consider, however it shouldn’t be included in the $80k figure becuase it’s not like we already have this money, it’s just a possibility that could be used to pay for American (the Richmond package did not include loans or work-study; American’s aid package didn’t include work-study, which is odd because both of our kids worked during high school and our older had work-study aid).

So the estimated $80k should actually be $60k, and for this we should also consider the impact that funds from work/inheritance/lawsuit. If we lose one year of need-based aid - which I believe is very possible - from Richmond, the difference between the two schools would be $25k for four years, which is not insubstantial but is not in our estimation enough to base a college decision on. If we lost two or more years of aid, American actually comes out better.

I’m not sure if a college would deny all financial after previously awarding it, however a $60k increase in earnings and a (possibly) substantial inheritance may do just that. I haven’t yet called Richmond to ask about it and not sure if they can give me than a b.s. answer because if we don’t know how much (if any) additional funds we will have next year, or the year after that, or the year after that…

Anyway, this changes a lot. Not sure why I didn’t see this before or DH didn’t consider it. In the past thought about hiring a financial planner specializing in college funding to go over the numbers with but let myself be talked out of it. Now I wish I had done it.

57

@DragonBoatGirl You loose need based financial aid by gaining wealth but not merit scholarships. Those are usually guaranteed for 4 years.

58

Correction and addition to the above. I was wrong when I said that Richmond did not include a loan in the package - it has the same amount of loan as AU, which rounds out to $20,000 over four years. So long as need-based aid is still in place, I’m not including the loans in the difference between the costs of the schools.

In terms of the numbers, we figured out the possibilities with the loss of one year, two years, and three years of need-based aid.

If nothing changes over four years and all aid remains the same - the out-of-pocket difference will be that AU is $60,000 more over four years.

If we lose one year of need-based aid, the out-of-pocket difference will be that AU is $43,000 more over four years.

If we lose two years of need-based aid, the out-of-pocket difference will be that AU will be $6,000 more over four years.

If we lose three years of need-based aid, the out-of-pocket difference will be that Richmond will be $30,000 more.

Any of these scenarios are possible; my guesstimate is that the last two are more probable but anything could happen.

I’d love feedback on whether the new calculations make sense and how the ‘what-if?’ factors, which are substantial, might play into our thinking. Again, I very much appreciate the comments here - they have given us a LOT to think about.

59

Especially considering all the financing uncertainty, I think you should simply let her decide. The deadline is tomorrow, right? Just support whatever she chooses. Speaking for myself, I chose an expensive undergraduate program that drained my college funds, then paid for graduate school by myself, and I never regretted it. There are lots of factors that might make one school a better choice than the other in her particular case. College selection is deeply personal, and she’s so fortunate that you have given her the financial resources to consider these options. It’s important that she feel ownership of this decision. If not, it increases the likelihood that we’ll see you back here in a couple of years, inquiring about transfer options!

60

It is unlikely you would lose need based aid for next year (FA forms filed in Oct 2019) since you haven’t earned $60k more nor have you inherited more. That leaves you the final two years to ‘worry’ about.

So at worst the schools are equal price - you still think Richmond is a better fit for your daughter. I don’t think it should all be put on her. It is a family decision to spend $250k, and kids need help in making the decision. Why is Richmond better? Size, courses, study abroad, sororities, clubs, lacrosse (much better at Richmond)?