Daughter is driving us insane with indecision

Parent Cafe
81

The OP wrote “She felt that her hard work and good grades weren’t appreciated and that the offer was insulting. It’s also puzzling why we didn’t receive any need-based aid from American (we did from every other school she applied to).”

I understand this at a gut level. Many times people on CC encourage students to “love the school that loves you back.” It may not be entirely rational, but it’s not immaterial that this family felt disrespected by AU’s offer. Given that both are great choices and the future is unknowable, that sense of not feeling “loved back” seems as sound a basis as any other on which to make the final decision.

82

I totally understand the emotional part.

But in life it’s better to not look for love in return from or really “love” things that can’t love you back, in reality.

Objects, money, stocks of a particular company and institutions of higher learning are on some things on that list for me. It’s just practical.

83

Agree with @privatebanker. This stuff isn’t personal. Don’t treat it as such.

84

I don’t disagree with the previous comments. What, though, is really meant by the advice to “love the school that loves you back”? It’s an honest question about advice I’ve read here many times.

85

I’m not sure what “loving you back “ means for an institution, but I’d say merit based aid is a form of love (even if it’s smaller than you may have hoped for). Solely need-based aid is not “love”, it’s a formula.

86

"What, though, is really meant by the advice to “love the school that loves you back”? "

I’ve seen the phrase used more for waitlist situations. Rather than continuing to pine to get off the waitlist for some school that you prefer, embrace the option(s) you have.

87

I’m actually not concerned about losing merit aid because DD is an extremely hard-working person and unless she’s truly unable to understand something, would put aside other things to get good grades as a point of pride. Her high school was considered to be at a high standard (a public school, but in a well-off area with a lot of professionals and upwardly mobile residents who value education). I know that I could be wrong and people can always surprise you, but I can’t imagine her being in a situation that was difficult enough to strongly effect her GPA without also withdrawing from school. She truly feels the need for good grades more than we do - there are many nights where we’ve urged her to go to sleep rather than study for tests. (On the other hand, I’ve never known her to turn down a party or outing in favor of studying - she’d go have fun, then return home and study as long as she needed to).

Re the timing of any increase in assets, there’s only one parent for each of my DH and I, and of them, there’s only one parent whose situation is such that it would really make a difference. That parent is unfortunately in hospice right now; although he’s doing well for someone in hospice it does look like the event will take place sooner rather than much later. He’s a planner, so the will is up-to-date and most of the assets are in liquid form (cash and some CDs) in a trust terminating on death and a brokerage fund, with my DH and his sibling being the beneficiaries for both. So it’s possible for distributions to be held off for a short time, but it’s not going to take years to probate.

We actually have been very hands-off re the decision until now; we thought it was best for her to make the decision on her own but it seems to have backfired in terms of procrastination. That’s the reason we insisted that we talk about it every night this week - because she’s been avoiding thinking about it (we know this because she’s been out with friends instead of home researching the decision; my DH and I did much of the research instead). But she’s been home the last day or two doing nothing but researching and thinking, and still hasn’t gotten any closer. She’s almost literally paralyzed with indecision, and I can’t blame her because DH and I are having trouble deciding also - we keep changing our minds.

The decision has never been entirely for AU because although she put down a deposit for AU when we received their offer some time ago, she received an extension from Case Western to decide whether she wanted to go there instead (i.e. notify AU and lose the deposit, and then put down a deposit with Case), and then got another extension somehow (she’s very persuasive and would make a great salesperson or development director for a non-profit). We let that time expire without a change (did notify Case a couple of days later, when it would probably have been too late anyway) but almost immediately received the offer from Richmond, which she also received an extension to make a decision. (I was amazed that they agreed, but I probably shouldn’t have been). The deadline is Friday (tomorrow), although it’s likely that if we put down a deposit over the weekend they would accept that…

(2 hours later) - DD says she wants to make her own decision, which is fine with us as we can’t decide either! We told her that the financial aspect would likely work out about equally (although DH and I, and possibly DD, tend like most people to focus on what we’re paying now v. what we would be hypothetically paying in a couple of years. Also, as said we don’t like overpaying for things, and AU’s financial aid/merit offer was truly insulting).

I’ll let you know what the decision is as soon as we do.

88

We were lucky in that our son picked the school that offered him the largest merit award (we are otherwise full-pay). We did not push him to make that decision, but when the list was down to two schools, we worked up a “pro and con” list that included, among other things, cost information. The other school of the two offered a much lower merit scholarship, but because their tuition is also lower, the difference in net costs wasn’t huge between the two. When he visited the school he ultimately chose, the admissions officer he met with made a big point of the scholarship and how few students are offered this level of merit. It made a big impression and my son later asked me more about the scholarship - why it is called an alumni scholarship, where the money comes from (good opportunity to educate him regarding his future responsibility to “give back”), etc. I think the fact the school offered him the scholarship did make him feel that he is really wanted there, and I think he is going to want to live up to their expectations.

89

It is unlikely that a family in your income and asset range but without the cash savings could attend AU. AU isn’t giving a lot of need based aid so if another student doesn’t have the $70k, they can’t go. Your saving allows your daughter the options she has now. Another student would get the same merit aid but not have the difference to pay. The $5500 loan isn’t going to get the tuition paid.

90

Richmond was generous enough to give you a deadline extension until today. If your daughter does not deposit there today (and withdraw from AU), she is choosing AU. I would not count on Richmond letting your family continue to mull over this past the deadline they have given you .

91

Not everyone at American can be a slacker because right now she’s committed there, right? I think there are slackers at just about every school. If she’s driven and interested in learning they aren’t going to affect her.

I don’t understand her concern with rankings. I don’t think employers flip through US News while reviewing applications to see if college A is a few ranks above college B. I hope at this point she’s learned enough about each school to understand what they can offer her in the way of classes, internships, study abroad opportunities, etc. so she can make a solid decision based on what she wants to get out of her education.

Both are solid choices, so I wouldn’t stress about her decision. If she doesn’t actively choose Richmond, she’ll be attending American and some other kid will be able to attend Richmond.

92

OP- big hug.

Huge lesson here for you guys though… this is only the beginning of the decision-making process as your D begins her adult life. So perhaps you can come up with some less upsetting/more productive strategies going forward.

Your D has to choose between the fabulous professor who teaches the 9 am Friday morning seminar, or the less fabulous professor who teaches the Wednesday 1 pm version of the class. Your D has to decide whether to study abroad in the UK, where the term extends into July so she won’t be able to get a summer job in the US once she’s back, or study in Singapore, where the program costs more, but where she’ll be home by May so she can earn money. Your D has to decide whether to take an unpaid internship which really interests her, or a well paying job which doesn’t sound as cool. Your D needs to decide whether she’s going to take the GRE’s senior year during a tough semester where she’s already stressed, or wait until after graduation, which means she needs to find a job to fill the year between college and grad school.

Etc.

My strategy was “Gee, that sounds like a tough one. I’m sure your adviser can help” with a liberal dose of “I bet the Dean answers questions like that all the time” and “That professor from last semester seems like she knows this area really well, I bet she’d be super helpful”. And then hang up the phone and walk around the block! You just can’t get involved in each and every decision over the next four years and keep your own sanity!!!

93

We did the ‘let your child talk about their choices’ experiment last night and she made three times as many positive remarks about AU than about Richmond (and about three times as many negative remarks about Richmond than she did AU). We showed her the results but were careful not to indicate a preference. If she asks us what we think (and I think she will) we’ll tell her, but only if she asks.

Also, she did her decision chart again twice, and although the numbers were very close, each time she had 6 choices that preferred AU over RIchmond.

Her concern about academics isn’t over rankings (if it was, she would have accepted the offer from Brandeis which was much better than AU), it’s over academic quality - i.e. class discussions, how involved other students are with the classes, professor’s quality, etc. I was a lecturer at a couple of graduate schools and it’s definitely true that the ones with better reputations had a higher level of discussion, and were more talented academically (by grad school all the students were motivated so that wasn’t a factor). I believe that Richmond students as a group are more motivated and more hard-working/possibly intelligent than at AU and that she would ‘stretch’ more intellectually.

Despite this, it seems that her heart is at AU - she even told DD this (and said he brain tells her Richmond). I would rather see her at AU and will tell her this if she asks.

She does need to make a decision today, pre-prom, so there are a couple more hours before she needs to get ready. We’ll see…

94

Right now she is thinking about choosing based on who “loves her”…but really she needs to choose based on where can she succeed, where will she have options for her majors, where she can get housing, where she can keep up with GPA needed for scholarships, where you can afford, where it is easy for her to get home, where she can get internships…
Both of these may fit that criteria and it is okay for her to choose based on other non-specific criteria

95

American was not insulting when the college accepted your daughter, and she chose to matriculate there…and sent in her deposit to do so. I find it disingenuous that it has become insulting just because she got off the waitlist at Richmond. I personally think you need to let go of this idea altogether. Both schools accepted your daughter at the end…so both wanted her as a student. And you can afford both schools.

Merit aid is a potential in the top 25% but was she top 5% of admitted students at American?

Glad you are letting her pick.

Agree with the above poster…don’t assume you can hit the accept button after the deadline Richmond has given your daughter…unless she contacts them today for an extension.

I also think I would not encourage an extension. It won’t help you parents or your daughter make the decision.

96

Forgot to add that our older daughter chose a school with lesser perceived academic quality (aka rank) and IMHO the level of discourse and difficulty of the assigned text was in fact decidedly lower for the same course that I audited as an adult as the extension school of an Ivy League university. Younger DD was pleased with the quality of discussion at Richmond, I don’t think she attended a class at AU but will check (and I realize that one class isn’t enough to make a decision on generally).

97

Was she invited to the honors program at AU?

98

Every college has its “phone it in” classes (“rocks for jocks” instead of the geology/Earth science class taken by serious science students) and its notoriously difficult classes (a behavioral economics class which requires two semesters of statistics is going to be MUCH harder than the Buyer Behavior class in the business school which has no requirements and is for marketing majors, even though they both will cover many of the same theoretical concepts).

Introducing the quality of discussion as a decision factor- particularly if she didn’t attend any lectures at AU- seems to me like a HUGE red herring at this point in the game. Once you are in the college, you are the determinant of how much rigor you have in your life. Your D can take sociology classes which are high on theory and light on analytical rigor and statistical analysis, or she can take sociology classes which require original research, complex regressions across many variables, etc. She can take communications classes which use secondary and tertiary sources and a written exam, or classes which require a ten page essay every single week and a 50 page research paper with citations and footnotes. She can decide how to approach her education- skimming the surface, or doing a deep dive and developing strong analytical skills.

99

AU, with its location and the variety of students, is one I do consider strong for discussions, etc. It’s not just DC, it’s an area engaged in issues and generally well informed. So much opportunity. Not your average campus plunk in nowhere.

But I dont think you’re doing a 17-18 year old any favors by letting her stew. That’s not how solid decision making skills are learned.

You’ve done all the assessing. Now she needs to decide. The lesson is: best choice for you, at the time and with the info available. Living with a decision, satisfied you covered the basics, and knowing you can change it (transfer or just live with it) in 2 years.

Have mercy on her, lol. All this analysis and focus on the “perfect” choice is doing her no favors. You don’t want a young adult who faces this much turmoil with every life decision. That can cripple.

At this point, there is no perfect and no wrong.

100

I would emphasize to her that she is trying to optimize, not avoid disaster. As tough as it feels, she can’t go wrong. Sometimes, realizing that you are deciding between two good things is very liberating.