Dealing with a Dream Denied...(long)

Parent Cafe
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<p>"calmom
Member
*
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 351 </p>

<p>Northstarmom - since my kids require financial assistance to attend college, one more myth I don't buy into is the concept of 100% financial need being met by the colleges. Colleges can be very generous with financial aid, but loans can be very burdensome in the long run, and colleges also expect students to pitch in a chunk of money from their own earnings."</p>

<p>As always, it depends on the colleges. A couple of the top colleges -- Harvard and Princeton -- do not require students coming from families making $40k or less a year to take out loans. Unfortunately, it's the most selective colleges in the country that have the most generous financial need, which means that such generosity isn't available to most needy applicants.</p>

<p>That being said, however, I have known needy students including a an orphan who were able to attend 4-year state universities. They did, however, have to take out loans, but were able to get a college education and far better permanent employment than they would have without that college degree.</p>

<p>They weren't, however, burdened by the kind of medical debt that the student whom you know unfortunately has.</p>

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<p>Berurah's son has worked hard at school his entire life. He's not a kid who has had to be poked at, prodded or pushed. Berurah has been a devoted mother. Her son, a conscientious student, has naturally envisioned the life he will have after high school. For some kids that stage of imaging the future may take on some amalgam of many different schools they've visited or heard about. For others, that "future" may be represented by one school in particular. It's OK to have many schools to "dream about" and it's OK to have a "dream" school. In either case there are going to be letters this week that will bring elation and or disappointment. I think that what Berurah is asking us is for advice on how to cope with these feelings both on our own parts, our child's part and on the part of siblings.<br>
Pardon my saying so, but I think a discussion of "dream schools" is missing the point.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Pardon my saying so, but I think a discussion of "dream schools" is missing the point.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>If I had had my wits about my at 2:00 a.m., this is exactly what I would have said. Thanks andi. ~berurah</p>

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<p>This thread has gotten a little edgier than I would have anticipated, but I think that whoever said that it is perhaps do the collective angst, as many are less than a week away from D-day, is on the mark.</p>

<p>Many of the bright, self-motivated students (and parents) have had little experience with disappointment, and we don't get to take "Disappointment 105" in school. We learn from experience, and from the collective wisdom/suggestions/support/guidance of others.</p>

<p>We all set goals, and strive towards them. Setting a school goal (dream school) is not unreasonable, but, as others have said, there is a lot that is out of one's control when it comes to whether or not we can reach that goal/dream. The important thing is not try not to close one's mind to other possibilities outside of the "dream" school. </p>

<p>Those that apply to a school ED are in essence selecting a "dream" school, and that is not being poo-poo'ed here, as far as I can tell. If I had to choose, I would prefer that my s. have (or actually had, he applied ED last year) a goal, an aspiration, a dream school, a "fit", whatever you want to call it, than to have lived by the motto "he who expects nothing will never be disappointed". </p>

<p>Many of the most successful people are risk-takers. They "go for it". They follow a passion, dream, a goal. They (for example) open businesses, and may have a few failures before successes, but they learn from the school of hard knocks. So if we step back from the current, but narrow focus of college selection, and look at it as one of a series of goals/opportunites in life, we can put this chapter in life's journey in perspective. </p>

<p>So, to all of you who are biting your nails for the next week, hang in there. Good luck to all of you. It will all work out in the end. This is not the end of a dream, but the beginning of a new one. Last year, in our s's school newspaper, we were invited to put words of wisdom, as it were, for our graduating senior. Ours was " don't be afraid to go out on a limb-- you might like the view".</p>

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<p>Calmom, someone needs to help that kid. It will only get harder for him to go back to school. For working families, financial aid often seems like not enough. For a kid with no family, financial aid at a school that meets needs would be 100% comprehensive. The ER bill can wait, that kid needs to be in college to have a future. There are many organizations that would help help him.</p>

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<p>"The ER bill can wait, that kid needs to be in college to have a future. "</p>

<p>I think that zagat is right. If he goes back to school, the hospital also may be very willing to spread out the payments at a level that he could afford while still being in school.</p>

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<p>Zagat is incredibly right. The young man needs to be in school asap. I do understand the problem though - abridged version, at 13 I lost both parents; by 15 was a high school drop out and ward of the courts, by 16 was emancipated, living alone, paying for car and apartment thanks to three separate jobs. Did manage to "graduate" from high school via a correspondence school in Chicago called American School. Couldn't afford to go to college, needed all three jobs to pay rent, etc., plus, to have time to go to class and do homework, I would have had to give up at least one of the three jobs. Couldn't qualify for financial aid because I made too much money from the three jobs combined. At 17/18, didn't know enough about how I might possibly get some help. Did have my parent's estate to look forward to, but, their will stipulated that their holdings had to remain in trust until my 30th birthday. There was a clause that said money could be advanced to me prior to my 30th birthday if the purpose was to buy a business, or attend college, so I went to the attorneys in charge of administering the estate to try to get money for college. They wouldn't give it to me - I forget why. I tried to ask them if I could borrow against it. I even offered "don't even give me the money, send the payment directly to the college" and "monitor my grades and let's agree to a minimum gpa" and still they refused. And of course I couldn't figure out what to do next, so, I gave up. </p>

<p>If I had a "do-over", I would have forced, fought, begged, pleaded, bargained and/or threatened my way into college somehow; I would have tried even harder to make the money happen, would have given up my apartment and lived in the car or slept in the streets, etc. The young man needs to get into college right now, period, and everything else - ER bills, whatever else comes along - absolutely must wait. There simply isn't anything else more important.</p>

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<p>cangel—Thank you so much for your support and your belief that my son will be able to get a good education at more than one school. I guess that in a week or two, we’ll know whether or not to stock up on long underwear or beach towels <em>lol</em>. I had to laugh today as he donned his Michigan jacket: He told me that we may need to buy a Miami jacket soon. I told him that if he went to Miami, he wouldn’t NEED a jacket!</p>

<p>sillystring—Like you, I was definitely under the impression that it would be easier for the school to “make the choice for us” through rejection than it would be for us to have to decline based on finances. I mentioned in another post that I actually came right out and asked my son this question, and he told me that hands down, he would rather decline due to financial consideration than have the choice made for him by rejection. Then, I saw the post you made after you asked your D who was home on spring break! It appears that she and my son are in total agreement! At any rate, we sure appreciate your good wishes and like you, I so hope that all of our friends whose children we have been following the progress of this year have great outcomes!</p>

<p>jami—Thanks so much for your input on this issue! As always, your keen insight and pragmatism provide such valuable information. Your story of the young man who was stung by an unexpected Duke rejection was so poignant, but it is so inspiring to hear how things have turned out for him. At least we are expecting the worst <em>lol</em>! I think you are right in that ultimately finances will play a huge role in my son’s decision. At least we have some choices, and for that I am grateful. I still hope that for his sake, he receives at least one acceptance this coming week. Even if he cannot matriculate due to financial reasons, he will always have that sense of accomplishment. Thanks for your good wishes. Your support has meant so much to both of us.</p>

<p>carolyn—I thank you so very much not only for the good wishes you have sent the way of my son and all of the others who are in his boat, but also for the above and beyond help and advice you have offered both of us. We appreciate you more than we can say!</p>

<p>1moremom—Alas, the Cornell results were not available yet…only the schools that had rolling admissions is what I was told by the admissions office when we could not pull up results for my son. I think I’m glad that we didn’t have to deal with that yet!! <em>whew</em></p>

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<p>LTS, I appreciate your post detailing some of the problems you had, but apparently you have lost some of your perspective in hindsight. Maybe you would now be willing to give up your home and live in your car, but this kid isn't - and in any even he doesn't own a car. I found out about the medical bill because he accidentally left it in my daughter's car when she was giving him rides to wherever he needed to go -- I have no idea what other bills and debts he may have already accumulated. Getting through high school the last few months after the SS check cut off was tough enough for him - my d. helped him with a lot of stuff, but he also had a lot of growing up to do. </p>

<p>In any case, I didn't post that comment in order for everyone to second guess what he ought to be doing. It's not my business - I barely know the kid -- and it certainly isn't the business of strangers on an internet board. I posted to make the point that a lot of families who post here have more than enough to be grateful for, rather than bemoaning the loss of their child's "dream" because the kid might not get into whatever elite Ivy league school the kid is reaching for. It's not that it is wrong to "dream"... it's that some people's "dreams" are for luxuries, while others must "dream" for rock bottom necessities. </p>

<p>In any case, my kids went to public schools where there are plenty of other kids in the same boat -- I could easily pick up someone else's tough-luck story to relate. There is no "someone" who is going to help that particular kid -- this isn't the kid from Chino who can ust move into some rich person's poolhouse, to borrow from the fairy-tale world of the OC-- this is simply a fairly typical situation of a kid at an urban high school, where there are a lot more poor people around than rich ones. Life is tough for a lot of people. A college degree doesn't solve the problem -- maybe it's a San Francisco thing, but the city is full of unemployed or marginally employed people with advanced degrees. My son is a college dropout, and he routinely hires college graduates to work under him, for minimum wage or barely above it.</p>

<p>The vast majority of kids whose parents cannot pay for college do not go off to 4 year colleges. They will work for awhile and maybe enroll in a 2-year vocational/career training program at a local c. The reality of their lives doesn't make it impossible to go to college, but it makes it extremely difficult. Maybe for the kid I wrote about, the priority should be on finding a job that offers health insurance. At least my college drop-out son has that. </p>

<p>Also, with all due respect, this kid does not have an estate he will some day come into or a a set of trust lawyers to deal with - so as hard as your situation was, you had a clear light at the end of the tunnel. In any case, I'm sure if you had a time machine and could travel back to tell your younger-self to give up the jobs and the apartment, you'd get a quite an argument. Sure you have regrets now -- but it sounds to me like you did put significant effort into trying to further your education, and that the barriers were just too tough for an 18 year old to manage. It's a lot easier to decide what sacrifices you should have made in hindsight than to live through them - I'm sure at the time your "plan b" was to save up money on your own to return to college later on, knowing that there would eventually be money to draw on. Life threw up some other barriers for you... life has a way of doing that ... which is my point. We ALL have hopes and dreams that end up unfulfilled... it's just that in the greater scheme of things, some of us have the luxury of being able to dream for things that are already far out of reach of most other people.</p>

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<p>Calmom,
I was wondering whether you might direct the young man to College Confidential. From how you describe him, he probably is having to figure out his situation on his own, and there really may be caring, knowledgeable adults here who could help him.</p>

<p>I have had students who did get through college even though they were in dire financial straits. This included several first generation college students from low income backgrounds who literally were putting themselves through a college that was out of their home state. Some even were sending money home to help their relatives. One was raising a sibling.</p>

<p>They did graduate with debt, but it appeared that all graduated with a better financial outlook than they would have had without a college degree. </p>

<p>I do not know any who moved to cities like San Francisco for college or after graduation. I know that the cost of living is high in Frisco and jobs are hard to find.</p>

<p>Most of the students whom I described moved after college to small, unglamorous places with low costs of living. They did, however, get entry level professional jobs, and they were a step closer to the American Dream than their parents had been.</p>

<p>There are free agencies that are, I think, credit agencies that help low income people who have debt problems. This includes negotiating with the places where the debts are owed in order to spread out the payments so that the people can pay back their debts.</p>

<p>A young person without family may not know about these things, but perhaps could benefit by having a caring adult give him this information.</p>

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<p>Northstarmom, I love these board as much as anyone, but I'm quite sure that the young man in question does not own a computer or have an internet connection. As I've said, it's not really about him... I could easily point to a dozen others. The vast majority of kids where I live and who went to my son's school - which is the nearest public high school - do not go on to 4-year colleges straight out of high school. A significant number don't make it out of high school.</p>

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<p>"I love these board as much as anyone, but I'm quite sure that the young man in question does not own a computer or have an internet connection."</p>

<p>The public libraries, however, have such facilities. </p>

<p>I have lived in cities in which a lot of kids are in schools as is the case in your city. In fact, S is in a magnet program at a public school in which lots of young people do not go to college, do not graduate from h.s., and live in impoverished conditions with parents/guardians who have not finished h.s.</p>

<p>That's why I do my best to go out of my way to provide info to young people whom I meet who may lack the info about how to get to college. Getting a small piece of information -- the type of thing that is common sense to many people here on CC -- can make a big difference in the life of a young person who doesn't come from an educated background and who thinks that college is out of reach.</p>

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<p>Calmom, I'm sorry that whatever curve balls life has thrown you has made you feel dreams are not attainable, buth Northstarmom is correct, this board would help the young man you describe and others like him. Anyone who has no access to a computer today simply is not resourceful as libraries and community colleges, among others, have them available to all.</p>

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<p>Calmom, I work probono on occaision at a highschool in a terrible area. Very few kids go to college. It's trying to keep them in high school and out of jail that is the big issue there. We try to introduce the concept of college, the possibility of college to these kids so that maybe someday it will cross there mind to take that path. So I do know what you mean. There are a group of kids that have so many other dysfunctions and problems that college just is not on their agenda, and they are most likely not prepared academically, organizationally, motivationally, or maturity wise for further education at this time.</p>

<p>But there is also that category of kids who can go to college but because of specific family concerns have no idea what steps to take. Their family is incapable of helping them because they have too many other issues they are coping with. Some of those kids are possibility if helped the right way. We do try to reach out to those few kids. </p>

<p>In other schools I have seen kids who needed some guidance in the college maze because their parents are not interested in this next step. Some just figure the school will take care of it all for them. And many have no idea about financial aid and college costs. So there are varying levels of college readiness. But regardless of level, if I have a few minutes with a kid, I want to plant the idea of future education even if they are heading off to jail. It may just be a seed, but who knows when it will germinate. Heck, some prisons have college programs. The kid with 3 kids at age 18 with different fathers, may well end up at a college 10 years later. I just want any of them to have some familliarity with concept so that it is not a completely irrelevant subject. And some do come back; sometimes not for themselves but for a boyfriend, parent , sibling who is thinking maybe college. And some of those people have a long prelude before they can even think of registering for a community college course where they may even have to relearn to read beyond elementary school level. But, you know, some do make the steps. It's always nice to know where the staircase is even if you are not planning to go upstairs at the moment.</p>

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<p>northstarmom and zagat--I agree with both of you in regard to the possibility that the young man that calmom has made mention of could benefit greatly from some of the free advice so readily available on this forum. I hope that he is made aware of this unparalleled source of information regarding college.</p>

<p>calmom--O.K., I went back and reread my original post, your post, and my post to you. Nowhere in my original post did I ever mention the term "dream school". I talked about "dreams" and I talked about Duke, but I also said that my son was expecting results from SIX remaining schools, not just one, and nowhere did I indicate that emotional devastation would occur should he not be accepted...to the contrary, I said that I thought he was beginning to warm up to the idea of Miami as an illustration of his healthy ability to adapt. My son is the oldest of six in a one income household. He has NEVER gotten everything that he's wanted...trust me when I tell you that he is quite accustomed to the word "no". </p>

<p>I will concede that I incorrectly represented what you said when I used the term "all" in this sentence:

[quote]
I think it is a bit presumptuous to assume that all students who harbor a dream to attend a certain school have a parent's boot on their hineys, pushing and shoving them so strongly that a rejection brings a strong measure of relief.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I guess I was just flabbergasted and somewhat befuddled that you had used what I said in my original post to apparently jump to the conclusion that I was somehow behind my son, pushing and shoving all the way. When you said this--

[quote]
but your initial post made it pretty clear that your son was already working up enthusiasm for UMiami, where he has a large scholarship. So exactly whose dream is it? It doesn't sound like your son is the one who is fretting or bemoaning the possibility of rejection.

[/quote]

--I believe that I was warranted in believing that you feel that the "Duke dream" is mine, not my son's.</p>

<p>You couldn't be more wrong. My son is not one to place his emotions out here to be picked apart in a public forum. He is strong, and he is emotionally healthy, but that doesn't mean that he doesn't harbor hopes and dreams, even if he is well aware of the small odds of those dreams coming true. He has a right to those dreams; they are uniquely his, and no one should feel justified in telling him whether or not he is entitled to them. Clearly he is.</p>

<p>I don't understand the connection between the fact that there are those less fortunate out there and my son's entitlement (or lack thereof) to envision a specific type of college experience for himself. We all have our crosses to bear and hardships which preclude us from getting all that we want. </p>

<p>As a family we have not had it easy. My birth family has been virtually obliterated at the hands of my supremely dysfunctional late mother. I have been disowned and disinherited, and I was banned from my own mother's funeral, preventing me from ever experiencing closure of our very troubled relationship. And yet, when I have friends who come to me with tales of woe about their overinvolved mothers who do WAY too much for their children, I do not turn to them and tell them they have no right to complain because at least they HAVE a mother who gives a flip. Instead, I choose to empathize, comfort and support because their troubles are just as valid as mine....only different in kind.</p>

<p>It is O.K. for me to come here and ask for advice on how to handle the very real disappointment that my son may face next week. It O.K. for others who can relate or who may have gone through this experience before to pass along their own experiences. IMHO the criticism you brought to me for posting this was unnecessary and undeserved.</p>

<p>I apologize for any misstatements I made in response to your post, and I very much hope that we can just let this go. Peace, ~berurah</p>

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<p>No matter how much, or how little, a child may want a particular school, it hurts nonetheless to get a deferral, waitlist, or rejection. And the schools that you have been "seeing" yourself at, are always going to have the bigger impact, than the ones you know you would be happy at anyway.</p>

<p>As adults with much life experience, we still feel the pain of rejection from a job interview, or even a friend's dinner party.</p>

<p>Hopefully everyone will have at least some good news to balance the un-good.</p>

<p>Berurah, you are so full of wisdom and kindness, I somehow imagine you as a tall strong native american princess, guarding her children in a tepee.</p>

<p>You always thank posters individually, and remark on each person's advice, and make all of us feel special. You will find a way, and the right words will come, to help celebrate all that next week brings.</p>

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<p>berurah, if you want to go back and resurrect old posts you will see that I didn't reply to YOUR post, I replied to Mini's post #38,
[quote]
"Is there anyone but me who thinks that there is something intrinsically wrong (and wrong-headed) with the whole idea of a "dream school"?

[/quote]
- My post #51 is unmistakeable in that respect, given the fact that I made the effort to quote the specific portions of Mini's post that I was replying to. </p>

<p>My post #51 does not say one word about you or your son. So you are arguing with me about things that I never said and were never directed at you. You are the one who decided to personalize it and treat it as if it were a personal attack.... forcing me to reply in post #55, where I again said that I didn't want to debate or to attack you.</p>

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<p>Zagat, Northstarmom - I mentioned this young man as an example of many, not to seek specific help. I'm sorry I did. It is obvious to me that there are people on this board who apparently live on a different planet than I do, and don't have a clue of what life is like down here on earth. I went back and looked at my original post, and I see now that I didn't even say that the kid wanted to go to college - just that he had real problems to deal with that are far more difficult. </p>

<p>I didn't say that dreams are unattainable. I said that some people are extremely fortunate, and some of the concerns expressed on these boards seem pretentious and self-indulgent, when contrasted to the lives of people who actually have real challenges to deal with. It's not that disappointment isn't real, its that it is disappointment over something that in the greater scheme of things is rather insignificant -- like stressing over whether the caviar is spoiled in a world where so many people are going hungry.</p>

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<p>It never ceases to amaze me that topics get redirected, or hijacked. Perhaps the topic of how to help disadvantaged kids be directed to college belongs on a separate thread. I thought this topic was about dreams (yes dreams, not dream schools), as I posted yesterday. </p>

<p>I still feel that we all have the right to, and should dream. But with dreams comes disappointment. Just because we ask for, or want something doesn't mean we will get it. There are no guarantees. But hopes, aspirations, goals. Thats great, in my book. And we should work towards our goals. Chocoholic is right on-- whether in child or adulthood, we will be constantly faced with disappointments. As I said earlier, this is but one chapter in the bigger book of life.
So, to Calmom, Zagat, etc, I do hope that kid, and other disadvantaged kids get all the guidance they can, or they want. But I don't see that topic as being about dreams. Maybe the lack of them...</p>

<p>And Berurah, should I be hurt that I didn't get a personal reply? :(</p>

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<p>
[quote]
And Berurah, should I be hurt that I didn't get a personal reply?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>jym,</p>

<p>Oh, heavens NO!! <em>lol</em> I'm gettin' there....it's just that I've had everyone home for spring break, so I've had less computer time than usual! :( </p>

<p>As a matter of fact, I have very much appreciated your posts, and I fully intend to let you know that! :) ~b.</p>