<p>Momofknowitall- Obviously, you can't go wrong with either school -- they are all wonderful and different in their own way. Never having been to Stanford, I can't comment but its reputation is stellar. I have been to Duke and my S actually appled Ed to Vandy, so we know much more about that school. In my opinion, (biased, of course) those two schools have very differenct "feels". I'm not a big Duke fan (S hated it) but I also understand it is a wonderful school. I think it just appeals to a different kid than Vandy. Durham is not so nice, and Nashville is a blast.</p>
<p>Now, about law school - you are absolutely correct in assuming that the "prestige" difference of these three schools when it applies to law school admissions is "splitting hairs". My husband is a partner at one of the top 10 law firms in the country thus does A LOT of interviewing for top law students. He would say that all three schools are considered "great" for undergraduate work and although Stanford is the "better" of the three the difference isn't worth paying for if that is your only concern. So, if your S is really truly in love with Stanford and wants to stay in Ca, then go for it. But if he REALLY wants to experience a different part of the country, he shouldn't let the idea that he won't be attending a "prestigious enough" school, keep him from that experience -- its a non-issue in this case. Good luck</p>
<p>dwhite: Thanks so much for the response. I would totally agree with you regarding the "feels" for the schools. As I said in an earlier post, if I was 17 again I'd be going to Nashville in a heart beat! I'm glad to hear what your husband had to say about law firm applicants from those schools and splitting hairs. However, is it also his opinion, if he knows, whether an undergrad degree from say Stanford would make a statistical difference in whether or not a student can get into a top 14 law school when compared to that same student at Duke or Vandy (assuming similar LSATs and GPAs)? That's really the crux of the issue as I see it.</p>
<p>^^ The answer to that question is No. All three schools will yield about the same chance of admission to a T14 law school given a high LSAT and GPA.</p>
<p>Momofknowitall- The answer is no. If I glance at my husband's firm directory (they list undergrad and law school) there is just as many Vandy, Duke, and Stanford grads that went on to Ivy league/very top tier law schools (and that includes a very large percentage of the attorneys!) Now, having said that, there is also plenty of them who attended large flagship univerisites and smaller "less prestigious" schools and still went on to Harvard/Yale law. Again, pick a school because you love everything (or close to it) about it. FYI, my S also plans on law school and he will be attending Vanderbilt in the fall. We never felt that he would be at any disadvantage when applying to law schools because of it. He fell in love with the school and never looked back. If we (especially my husband) ever thought it would affect him we would have pushed for Harvard, Yale or Princeton!</p>
<p>If your son is typical, one of these scenarios will occur:</p>
<p>1- he gets to college, falls in love with linguistics or econometrics and never goes to law school
2- he gets to college, decides he does want to go to law school, but wants to work for a couple of years to take a break from academics
3- he gets to college, is ambivalent about law school, takes a job doing something else, employer decides to sponsor him for an MBA
4- he gets to college, is clueless about what he wants to do, either graduates on time and goes off to learn organic farming in New Zealand or takes time out for a year or so and then ends up going back eventually.</p>
<p>In all of these scenarios, you saving your funds to pay for law school sounds to me like a poor financial choice. He's going to college now; he may or may not go to law school in 5 years or more likely 7 or 8 or never years.</p>
<p>Wait until all your options are on the table. Find the place which is the best academic, social and intellectual fit which does not jeapordize your retirement or your daughters ability to go to college. Worry about law school later.</p>
<p>My kids (both already graduated from college) know many kids in law school right now and I am not aware of a single one who is attending on mom and dad's nickel. A kid smart enough to get in to Penn or Harvard or Chicago law school is smart enough to figure out how to pay for it. You go to a firm- work your tail off- but make enough to pay off the loan. You go public interest- work your tail off for not a lot of money-- but your law school forgives the loan. Or you get your employer to pay.</p>
<p>Congrats- sounds like a really nice problem to have!!! And how wonderful to have a good relationship with your son so that you can all talk about the trade-offs in a mature way.</p>
<p>I would just say... before making the final decision, have one more conversation with the Stanford Finaid people, where you lay out S's options in detail. Just in case.</p>
<p>"I would just say... before making the final decision, have one more conversation with the Stanford Finaid people, where you lay out S's options in detail. Just in case."</p>
<p>Yup. Sometimes it is absolutely amazing how schools can find additional "need" where no "need" previously existed.</p>
<p>Penn found a lot of "need" money for a top wrestling recruit a couple of years ago after it turned out Harvard had assessed the student's "need" at a much higher number.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, it's not surprising that Penn would match Harvard for a top sports recruit, but I would be surprised if Stanford matched Vanderbilt for a nonrecruit. I know from the experience of my kids' friends that Harvard's response to being told of a better offer from Penn was "What did Yale offer?" and "We hope you enjoy Penn."</p>
<p>If they're concerned about yield, as they should be in this financial environment, they'll be far more likely to cave. Hey, if a $5k a year discount could net you $190k in revenue, wouldn't you? (That's basically the way most so-called "need-blind" (doesn't exist) programs are organized now.)</p>
<p>Stanford isn't concerned about yield, even in this financial environment. Harvard really isn't concerned about yield.</p>
<p>If Harvard wanted 100% yield, it could get it, and save itself a bunch of trouble, too. All it would have to do is say "Your application constitutes an agreement to enroll if accepted, provided your cost of attendance is no higher than your next best offer from a residential college." That might knock down its applications by 6,000 or 7,000, and squeeze out the 400 kids who turn it down to go to Yale, Princeton, or Stanford.</p>
<p>Interesting prospect going to Stanford with a scholarship offer from either Duke or Vandy and asking them if there is anything they could/would do to help out. Again, as I said earlier, the FA officer I spoke with indicated that they offer no "merit" based aid but that they do meet 100% of need based aid. We won't be able, according to the FAFSA, to demonstrate any "need", so while I like everyone's suggestion, I'm not hopeful Stanford would do anything. While it may not be the Harvard response of "enjoy Penn", I get the sense they may effectively say "enjoy Duke/Vandy".</p>
<p>Anyone have any thoughts on this or whether they know anyone who has actually suceeded with this type of play?</p>
<p>"Stanford isn't concerned about yield, even in this financial environment."</p>
<p>But they may become so, when they see (or fear) increasing numbers of students turning them down for Duke or Vandy. Five years ago, Princeton (with yield virtually the same as Stanford's) significantly changed its aid policies specifically targeting this perceived future problem - that is, losing "near full-freight" acceptances to lower ranking schools (the Vanderbilts/Dukes of the world).</p>
<p>If I were Stanford, faced with this situation (and knowing what you have already posted, which I wouldn't have), I'd offer you precisely $4,500 per year in aid, because of your "need". Just enough to get you to think you could afford it, without you feeling like I was competing with those lowly places. And I'd glady pocket your $190k. It's called "Enrollment Management" (101).</p>
<p>I like your thinking but I am a bit curious why you say "If I were Stanford, faced with this situation (and knowing what you have already posted, which I wouldn't have),. . ." Have I said something wrong? Everything I've mentioned is the truth so I'm not sure if I've created issues with Stanford. Again just curious.</p>
<p>Oh, I don't think you've created issues at all! My "I wouldn't have" means that, if I were Stanford, I wouldn't have known what you said here about your financial possibilities. (So read it the opposite of the way you interpreted it.)</p>
<p>Again, I wouldn't expect you'd get anything from Stanford to "compete" with a merit award elsewhere. But I would not be at all surprised if they discovered your were needier in April than you were in December, without any change in your financial condition whatsoever (though they'd obviously would have found things have changed). Just good 'enrollment management'.</p>
<p>stanford is a private school.. they all are. They can determine need in any way they want. This said, and while I think Duke and Vandy are great... my husband was really hesitant to encourage our son to apply to Tulane (his alma mater), Vandy or Duke (His father's alma mater). H's feeling was our S had a really good attitude and approach to a multicultural society and felt the southern schools had a ways to go to reach a similar level. Based on the Duke lax case, and all that went on with that, perhaps he has a point. THis said, I had no experience from which to comment, but know that while he might say this, it's also true that he LOVED his time at Tulane and to this day LOVES New Orleans and the people there. </p>
<p>And I have to agree... neither are Stanford. Although last year Stanford's basketball coach fully admitted that Cornell's team was probably smarter. :-)</p>
The Journal of Blacks in Higher Education produces a ranking that measures "relative success in attracting, enrolling, and graduating African-American students as well as their progress in bringing black professors to their campuses."</p>
<h1>1 Duke</h1>
<h1>2 Emory</h1>
<h1>5 Vanderbilt</h1>
<h1>6 UNC Chapel Hill</h1>
<h1>9 UVA</h1>
<p>Yes, clearly Southern universities have "a ways to go." Stanford, incidentally, came in #12.</p>
<p>First, congratulations on raising such an accomplished child. That having been said, I have a number of thoughts:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>A person with a 60k EFC is not in the "upper middle class" by any plausible measure. I won't embarrass you by mentioning your family income (I have a pretty good idea, since my EFC is slightly north of that number), but you should recognize that you are one of the most affluent Americans. Nonetheless, full price at Stanford would clearly hurt at your income level.</p></li>
<li><p>Second, viewed as an investment, it is not worth it. Period. Assuming that your son is not a recruited athlete or a development admit he could probably have gone for FREE to a number of fine state schools--free as in no tuition, free room and board (although you have probably missed the deadlines at those schools. To my knowledge, there is no research that even hints at the possibility that lifetime earning are increased appreciably by attending a high prestige school, (taking into account the demonstrable fact that such students generally do much better at good old state U), let alone enough to compensate for the opportunity cost of not investing the $200,000.</p></li>
<li><p>Against that background, if S receives a substantial merit package from either Vandy or Duke, take the money and run. If you don't, understand that you are using a large portion of your assets to purchase a pure luxury item, with no appreciable economic benefit.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>What you say makes solid economic sense when you break it down the way you did. Quite anayltical!</p>
<p>Regarding the income figures - I suppose if we were living in a different part of the country with this income, I would agree with your assessment that we would be amongst "the most affluent Americans." However, in Orange County, CA, approx. 250K/year gross income really doesn't go as far as you might think and you are absolutely correct, a full price private college education will make a significant dent. Thus, I still classify us as upper middle class, at least for this region.</p>
<p>The only thing I have trouble agreeing with you on is . . . "To my knowledge, there is no research that even hints at the possibility that lifetime earning are increased appreciably by attending a high prestige school"</p>
<p>I realize there are literally hundreds of factors that play a role in future earnings after college, but I have to believe that if all/most other factors are equal, Stanford grads should be making more than Vandy grads. No evidence to support that, but it just makes sense as a general concept.</p>
<p>Thanks again for your input, it was actually very helpful. :)</p>