<p>I don't agree that Stanford grads are going to be making more than Vandy grads. If you look at CEOs of major corporations, you will find that many of them came from state universities. If Vandy grads wind up with lower pay, it might be because they don't go to California where the cost of living is so much higher.</p>
<p>You have to control for the quality of the student. The right question to ask is whether a person who had the opportunity to attend Stanford would earn more money than if he chose to attend Vanderbilt. The person is likely to graduate higher in his class at Vandy; my understanding of the best research is that, on the average for affluent students the likelihood of graduating higher in the class offsets the difference in prestige.</p>
<p>The difficulty, of course, is that for individual students one is making a decision under conditions of uncertainty. All that you can do is play the percentages.</p>
<p>
[Quote]
The Journal of Blacks in Higher Education produces a ranking that measures "relative success in attracting, enrolling, and graduating African-American students as well as their progress in bringing black professors to their campuses."</p>
<h1>1 Duke</h1>
<h1>2 Emory</h1>
<h1>5 Vanderbilt</h1>
<h1>6 UNC Chapel Hill</h1>
<h1>9 UVA</h1>
<p>Yes, clearly Southern universities have "a ways to go." Stanford, incidentally, came in #12.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>While impressive on it's own, and with all due respect, this list has nothing that would correlate it with community relationships between the races, which was my point. I don't want to argue about underlying feelings of racism, but beyond what I wrote in my last post (and again it is not my experience at all), if you've ever had an opportunity to read "White Like Me," it seems pretty obvious that there is a great deal of systemic racism that manifests itself more prevalently in the south.</p>
<p>Thx again everyone for the informative posts and answers to my questions.</p>
<p>I was reading an interesting thread in the law school forum that discussed the correlation between a prestigious undergrad school and law school admissions. The clear consensus was that LSAT and GPA are far more important factors in getting into a top law school than what college you attended. However, on about page 6 of 8 there was a poster who had a link to Yale Law Schools statistics and buried in the middle of Yale's 100 + page catalogue was the undergrad schools attended by their students. </p>
<p>It was very interesting to note that almost 80 students did their undergrad at Yale and the same number for Harvard. Stanford was 3rd with 37 with Princeton not far behind. The numbers really drop off, however, for some of the other top undergrad schools like Vandy, Duke, Emory etc... </p>
<p>Clearly, there are numerous factors at work regarding admission into a law school like Yale but the numbers are the numbers. :)</p>
<p>How about the numbers reflecting wealth?</p>
<p>The percentage of Yalies attending medical school in the past 30 years, according to Yale's own statistics, has dropped 66% in the past 25 years? Is it because Yalies are unqualified? Not in the least. There have just been easier ways to make money.</p>
<p>^
I'm not sure I understand your point here. The one I was trying to make is that maybe there is a more significant correlation between the "prestige" of your undergrad school and your admittance to a top law school (based on Yale's own statistics).</p>
<p>As an impressionistic matter, I think that may be somewhat more true at Yale than elsewhere. Also, Yale tends to admit an older student body that has done significant things, academically or politically, before applying to law school. It loves things like Rhodes or Marshall scholarships, or participation (if not necessarily degrees) in high-prestige PhD programs. And the people with those scholarships/programs tend to come disproportionately from high-prestige colleges.</p>
<p>momofknowitall-I think, in your case, you are best to stick with Stanford, Clearly, you are quite concerned with the the undergraduate degree and how it will impact your S's (possible) law school admission so I wonder if you would ever really be 100% comforatable with a different choice. As long as he is happy with that choice, put the other options to rest. Have him enjoy the remainder of senior year!</p>
<p>Just curious, why didn't he apply to Harvard, Yale or Princeton?</p>
<p>He did apply to Harvard, however, the way I see it his acceptance to Stanford won't make it any more or less likely that he'll get into Harvard, and I wanted to keep the thread a bit more simple. Even if he gets in to Harvard, I'm fairly certain he'll chose Stanford anyways. Then again, the issue becomes Duke or Vandy on scholarship. </p>
<p>After the weekend weather we just had, low to mid 80s, it's hard for a Southern California kid to see himself in the Northeast at this time of year. Palo Alto should hit 70 all week :)</p>
<p>Weather is clearly not top on your list of criteria and concerns, but for what it's worth, my Bay Area daughter is having a great time adapting to the snow and ice of the Northeast. We bought her a coat that covers her behind, snow boots, and a warm hat, and she is loving the weather. The coat is such a novelty that she is still marveling about how wonderful it is :-).</p>
<p>Funny how that is - Growing up on the east coast, my son cringed at the thought of 70-80 degree weather year-round -- thus refused to even consider the west coast! It just wasn't a "legit" college feel (his words). He wanted all 4 seasons and I think invisioned himself walking to class under trees with the leaves changing colors and that crisp fall air we enjoy here! Its all so individual!</p>
<p>MOM- I agree that you won't sleep easily unless your son is at Stanford. HOWEVER, please realize that a huge percentage of undergrads completely change their majors and career goals. Law school might never happen, so I would not be hung up on that right now. Your son might discover a passion for astronomy or something. My son (college junior) did not enter college with any thought of law school, and now that is in his plan. I am a practicing lawyer and I started college as a music major. You really can't script this out in high school.
I should also mention that my kid (and a number of his friends) have NO interest in Yale or Harvard law school, and they currently attend an Ivy. There are a lot of considerations.</p>
<p>There exists a "credentialling effect" such that the same person who attends a more prestigious university will have better life and career prospects than if s/he were to attend a lesser one. The debate lies in how significant this effect is, however.</p>
<p>BTW, many Stanford grads choose to go to Stanford Law over Yale Law, so their numbers at the latter tend to be more depressed than it seems.</p>
<p>Yale Law School has a yield on admitted students roughly equal to that of Harvard College. It accepts about 240 students to get a class of about 200. So objectively it is unlikely that "many Stanford grads choose to go to Stanford Law over Yale Law," since there isn't a "many" of anyone making an actual choice not to attend Yale Law School, and those 40 people are probably divided among Harvard, Stanford, schools offering significant merit aid (including Columbia, NYU, Penn), and doing something other than law school altogether.</p>
<p>Plenty of people make the decision not to attend Yale Law School by simply not applying to it. It's famously intellectual and impractical, and thus not for everyone.</p>
<p>"I'm not sure I understand your point here."</p>
<p>It's rather simple. Wealthy people get admitted to prestigious law schools. (or, said another way, "prestige begets prestige".)</p>
<p>MOMofknowitall</p>
<p>To echo someone else who posted this earlier, Duke is very stingy with merit monies. </p>
<p>Earlier you said:</p>
<p>
[quote]
but I figured based on the statistics, he'd at least be in the running for either the Robertson....
[/quote]
</p>
<p>The Robertson (at either Duke or UNC) is not really about statistics. Like the Morehead at UNC on which it was patterned, they are really looking at the WHOLE kid, far beyond the statistics which makes it much harder to call. My S turned down Yale and others to accept the Morehead in 2004 and his closest friend was a Robertson so I've met,seen and spent much time around Moreheads and Robertsons. While they all obviously have the numbers they all are also somewhat unique and in some cases have almost quirky (in a good way) personalities which make them stand out and is why they were chosen for such prestigious awards.</p>
<p>Vandy, on the other hand does pass out significant merit money. There was a poster (Evilrobot maybe?) on the Yale threads back in '04 who like my S also was admitted to Yale SCEA (also before their new FA policies) and chose Vandy because of the merit monies he was given. I recall that he may have posted a follow up thread after graduation.</p>
<p>It may come down to Vandy with significant merit money and Stanford with none because Duke is so stingy and the Robertson so hard to predict/project. If he is willing to give up the west coast, he won't be shortchanging himself educationally and if he delivers with the GPA and LSAT he can gain admission to a top Law School. </p>
<p>FWIW, my S opted to turn down his dream school Yale for UNC and the Morehead. He never regretted his decision, had a wonderful undergrad experience, graduated DEBT FREE and is now an M-1 (first year Med student) at a top ten Med School. </p>
<p>Vandy may not have the name recognition among average Californians in the same way that Pomona is not well known in much of the east. Good grades, a strong LSAT and a Vandy degree will open many doors coat-to-coast because the admissions committees at grad and professional schools are fully aware of Vandy and, in the end, that's all that counts. </p>
<p>Best of luck.</p>
<p>Mini- people with high lsat scores and high undergrad gpas get admitted to prestigious law schools. This is a fact verifiable through LSAC; the "soft" factors that figure in to undergrad admissions decisions are either unimportant or trivially relevant at best. Nobody gets into Yale law school because they can throw a football further than anyone else.</p>
<p>The fact that high LSAT scores and to a lesser extent high undergrad GPA's correlate with family income doesn't change the simple dynamic that a poor kid with the scores has as good a chance as any one else in the law school admissions process. Don't set this up to be some wild conspiracy theory. There is ample information in the public domain from recent law suits on law school admissions which lays the decision-matrices bare.</p>
<p>This is hardly prestige begets prestige. A kid with a 160 LSAT and a 3.3 isn't getting into Stanford law school no matter who his daddy or granddaddy is. And development admits are non-existent at the top law schools. The simple fact is that nobody cares if you don't have the goods.</p>
<p>Go do your homework. There are plenty of wealthy people at third tier law schools... mainly because they couldn't score high enough to get into better ones. If they can pass the bar they can still get hired at grandpa's law firm- but their legacy status isn't getting them into a top school without the credentials. Why do you think crappy law schools can charge 65K per year just like the top schools???? It's because even though the employment prospects of most of their grads are weak, there are enough wealthy folks who want to be lawyers who can't buy their way into Chicago and Penn (where employment prospects are strong) and they've gotta end up some where.</p>
<p>EaDad:</p>
<p>That was a great response! Congratulations on your son, that's fantastic. You hit the nail EXACTLY on the head with your sentiment that your son turned down his dream school of Yale for a debt free education at UNC. I know that is precisely how my son is feeling right now. Stanford is a dream school for him and I hope he never regrets his decision if in fact he turns the offer down and elects to enroll at a school that makes more economic sense. </p>
<p>Re: the Robertson. Please don't think I'm of the impression that obtaining a Robertson is easy. In fact, statistically, getting a Robertson is harder than getting an admission offer from Harvard, Yale, Priceton or Stanford (maybe combined :) ) It looks like the Duke award is given to about 1% of their entering class. That's some tough competition!!! And of course I'm biased, but I know my son just might be that quirky (in a good way) community service loving, dynamic kid who could be a Robertson. When you read the profiles of other Robertson's and the description of who they are looking for, my son seems to be in the running. Hey, something got him in Stanford!</p>
<p>We've spoken at great length recently about all this and he agrees that if he is fortunate enough to get a Robertson, he's going to Duke. But, as you said before, the more likely scenario will be Vandy with some form of scholarship or Stanford with nothing. And, that still remains a very tough choice. Glad I don't have to make it, that's his problem :)</p>
<p>"Mini- people with high lsat scores and high undergrad gpas get admitted to prestigious law schools. This is a fact verifiable through LSAC; the "soft" factors that figure in to undergrad admissions decisions are either unimportant or trivially relevant at best. Nobody gets into Yale law school because they can throw a football further than anyone else."</p>
<p>Go find a family income spread of those admitted to Yale Law, and then we can have an intelligent conversation.</p>
<p>JHS,</p>
<p>Change "many" to "some," ok? The point still stands.</p>