<p>Thanks for the replies and PM’s. I am going to play nice loving dad when I go see her tonight for the 1hr visitation (3hrs away…eeek).</p>
<p>One of my friends from college is a MS social worker and she gave me a ton of links nationwide and her recommendations for residential programs. She agrees with Bigappledaddy that it must be residintial that out patient is very hit or miss at best.</p>
<p>I’ve spend all day on the phone going through the story with admins to see if their program is a good fit and found two. One in Florida and one in state…we’ll see since spending 7-11k a month is 100% out of the question…our only hope in a major chunk to be paid by insurance. We could theoretically swing 2-3k maybe, but even then it’s robbing Peter to pay Paul.</p>
<p>There are some free residential programs with 2-4 week waiting lists. The problem is being 18 she can split anytime that’s the sucky part. I want a place I can say you go here you can’t leave!! That’s the hard part.</p>
<p>We’ll see how the evening goes. I’m not willing to sacrifice my utopia that includes the babies (all under 9) and my wife to ATTEMPT to fix her problems. I will not put up with much if she starts screwing up as she comes home.</p>
<p>If she truly wants help she will get it either with my pushing or her volunteering. I’ll know more tonight discharge is tom.</p>
<p>I am a parent and I got clean & sober when I was 18, so I thought I should respond. </p>
<p>No matter which way you look at it, your daughter is very ill and needs help. In Alanon they talk about “detaching with love,” which sounds very glib when you are terrified for your daughter’s well being, but is probably the kindest thing you can do for everybody involved. I do not know if she is an alcoholic or drug addict, I certainly can’t make that call, but if that is the issue, it is important to remember that alcohol and drug addiction is a disease. Trust me when I tell you that it is not willful behavior. No one in their right mind would ever drink again if they suffered even half of the disastrous consequences that characterize alcoholic drinking. It is not fun, but you can’t stop or regulate it with willpower or logic. It is hard to explain to someone who drinks normally, because it is a totally different experience.
There is a lot going on right now so it is impossible to get a clear picture, but she is definitely having psychiatric issues. I know that you aren’t sure if her bad behavior is willful, but it might help to ask yourself what she might be getting from her behavior. It seems to me that she is in a hellish place inside of her head right now, and again, it doesn’t seem like it would be a place anyone would go for fun. A lot of what she is doing is characteristic of the onset of mental illness and she is the right age, so she needs a full assessment. I agree with BigAppleDaddy that a residential treatment center would be a good place for her. Also as a former teen alcoholic/drug addict it is important to note that we hide our addiction very well, she may have a more intense problem than you know.
Also, I understand the “psychobabble” characterization, I am not a huge fan of psychiatry, but selfish and spoiled is EXACTLY the way mental illness behaves. For example, paranoia has to be the most self-absorbed delusion ever. I have family members with mental illness and it is frustrating and horrible to deal with the manipulation and lies that come with an episode. If mental illness were a character flaw, as opposed to a chemical difference, Lithium would not successfully treat bipolar disease, so we have empirical data that these disorders exist.
Again, I do not know if your daughter is dealing with any of these things, but I thought my experience might shed some light and help you to not take her behavior personally. I know that’s impossible right now, but you would not take it personally if she had diabetes. My behavior at her age was hideous and looked profoundly selfish, but I was trapped and did not know how to escape my own behavior. It was terrifying and I thought that I was doomed, because I should be able to do what was right, and “snap out of it” but I couldn’t. Until I accepted that I was sick I could not get well.</p>
<p>Best of luck to you and your family. I am so sorry that you are having such a horrible time. My heart goes out to you as a parent.</p>
<p>I agree with others who have advised residential treatment, which is admittedly expensive, but quality care is - - dare I say - - even more important than college. Also, many programs offer not only a substance abuse track, but a “dual diagnosis” track which treats both substance abuse and mental illness (bipolar, BPD, depression, etc.). </p>
<p>Finally, as an 18 year old any placement will be voluntary (unless D posses an immediate risk to herself or others - - not only a high/difficult standard to meet, but she will probably be held for only a few days of obsservation). What you can do, is tell D that if she does not consent to residential treatment, you will not permit her to remain under your roof (touch love).</p>
<p>ScaredDad - My heart goes out to you and your wife. In this situation, I’d be heartbroken and at a loss as to what to do. But I can’t deny that when I read your original post…</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Is there the possibility that she is just immature, spoiled and selfish? Not looking to get flamed here or lack sensitivity, but has anyone ever heard of a psychologist telling a parent that the child who has been self-destructive just needs to grow up? Please don’t think I am talking about ignoring signs of mental disorders!</p>
<p>I have several cousins who partied too much as freshman, got in over their heads and screamed how unfair the parents were for not supporting their “choices”.</p>
<p>Like I said, I only wish the best for this family.</p>
<p>ScaredDad, I can assure you that depression is NOT a choice and it not something you can will yourself to snap out of. It is an illness. You need to recognize this. </p>
<p>Having a family member tell you that your condition is a choice is one of the worst things that can happen. Many depression patients try to self medicate with drugs and alcohol. </p>
<p>Depression is not a parenting failure. But she will need your help to beat it. It will be a process not a lightswitch fix.</p>
<p>“When she was with friends having fun she was fine the minute it became school time, work time, be a part of the family(chores) time she would get mopy much of the time.”</p>
<p>That doesn’t sound like depression to me. Depression doesn’t make people lie, either. I agree that no one can diagnose the underlying pathology in an active substance abuser. She needs to get clean before you can address the depression, if it is there.</p>
<p>I feel for you OP. My guess is she is hating her life because it’s clearly out of control and she doesn’t know how to get it back in control. She’s not making good decisions. She is being immature. She knows she’s not making good decisions. She probably knows you are totally disgusted…I know I would be if I were in your shoes. I’m sure she’s depressed because anyone could be who is out of control like she is. Who knows if she has an abuse problem. Clearly counseling with someone outside the family dynamic to start should help. Good for the grandma for saying “no.” Hopefully she can get on top of this sooner rather than later. My thoughts are with you for what will be abit of a tough road I’m sure.</p>
<p>There are a lot of things in your posts that are troubling…when a person goes this far off the deep end, they are not just “immature.” Habitual lying, substance abuse, acting out (at this age), pushing people who love her away, possible ptsd from a rape, etc. are undeniably symptoms of problems/problems she needs help with. It seems like a lot of times you are trying to minimize what she is going through - my wife and I grew up with real problems, therapy is a bunch of hooey, etc.</p>
<p>I think it’s normal to wonder if she just needs to grow up, normal to think “she has everything going for her, what’s wrong with her?” But I think you need to fight these urges. How can she feel like you love her and care for her when you think therapy is useless and that she has no real problems? I do suggest you do counseling for your wife and yourself if only to help you look at things differently.</p>
<p>Of course, you should not enable her, of course tough love is sometimes the answer. But minimizing a person’s emotional pain is not the answer. </p>
<p>Good luck with your daughter…it sounds tough…</p>
<p>I agree with the advice given that you can make conditions on things. I.e. we have to see yourself helping yourself (inpatient, etc.) for us to continue supporting you.</p>
<p>*When she was with friends having fun she was fine the minute it became school time, work time, be a part of the family(chores) time she would get mopy much of the time."</p>
<p>That doesn’t sound like depression to me. Depression doesn’t make people lie, either. I agree that no one can diagnose the underlying pathology in an active substance abuser. She needs to get clean before you can address the depression, if it is there.*</p>
<p>Sounds like she is good at compartmentalizing. Common in people with ptsd/abuse victims.</p>
<p>Does anyone else find these posts strange? While I empathize with parents trying to deal with an of age, not yet “adult” out-of-control child, and I agree with all the posters that the substance abuse needs to be dealt with before underlying issues can be addressed, I find many of the OP’s comments strange. The OP appears to be educated and reasonable and love his daughter, but yet thinks psychology is “psychobabble” and her problems are the choices of a selfish child who has never known hardship. </p>
<p>I don’t know many (actually any) men who would refer to children older than toddlers as “babies.” Are they multiples? How many? If all the other children are “babies,” this by opposition this D is not. Is this D a full or half-sibling? If the “babies” are multiples, D would have been an adolescent at their birth. Using the term “babies” is strange and suggests a level of endearment (can’t think of a better term) in which D is not included.</p>
<p>The whole situation strikes me as odd, albeit very sad for everyone concerned. But there seem to be a lot more underlying issues here that need to be dealt with. Assuming there is no mental illness and the substance abuse issues are dealt with, I think family therapy to resolve a lot of issues is in order.</p>
<p>As someone who had a very messed up teen/20s (due to child sexual abuse), understand that whe will be selfish, she will make mistakes, and she will pay for them, over and over. I do recommend that she get real treatment, though the typical alcohol and drug treatment may not get to why she chose to go that route in the first place. You need to protect yourself by going to counseling, as well as protecting your daughter. She needs therapy and once that happens, she needs to face consequences for her actions. I hope that it will get better.</p>
<p>Tango14, I also thought the line about OP not wanting D to step one foot out of line/or she’s out/she’s ruined the utopia with his “babies”/etc. was strange.</p>
<p>I am in no position to judge but I do sense at the least some minimizing of the D’s problems. And minimzing of the only solutions she has available to her (therapy, etc.). </p>
<p>I can empathize with OP in a sense that I feel as if these thoughts are normal to have…that D is messing up life with the rest of family members, that she needs to “grow up”, etc. But I hope that they are fleeting or I hope that OP works hard to keep them in check and continue moving forward…</p>
<p>“When she was with friends having fun she was fine the minute it became school time, work time, be a part of the family(chores) time she would get mopy much of the time.”</p>
<p>May not be depression but may be other issues…anxiety…etc. Especially when it comes to school/work. Which may trigger depression. These things are complicated eh. Now most teenagers get mopey around chore time though without underlying issues, that’s not complicated at all ^^</p>
<p>I’m simply going to address the concern over the cost of treatment. Others have given good advise and brought up very valid points for the OP to consider. The OP stated that his daughter would be gone in 4-6 months. I’m not sure where she was going in Feb-April but I’m going to assume this was a reference to her leaving for college next August. Even a costly residential program that may cost $7k would be far less than a year of college, possibly even a semester. It is far more important than her car, her droid, or anything else you can give her right now. She is at a fragile time in her maturity as well as her health. If she is not properly treated now it will be many times harder later. Frankly, yes your other children may have to sacrifice a few things, cut back on pizza night or movies out. If one of your younger children were ill in the hospital you would think nothing of the entire family cutting back to do whatever was necessary. This is no different.
One last thing, which may be the hardest. I am close with my son so I can’t imagine the pain. You have to forget about being her friend right now. She needs her dad. A friend will get his feelings hurt by a young persons actions. A dad will make tough decisions to protect and help his daughter find proper care. Don’t get drug into her emotional gutter right now. She needs your help.</p>
<p>for th last couple posters: I read the thread as the OP has a D who is away at school since the OP mentions going to see her. She went through therapy for a few months last year which I presume was high school senior year and it didn’t help. I’m presuming this is a college freshman, but that is an assumption. I’m reading that the OP has young kids at home and doesn’t think it is a good thing to have the out of control older D at home so is going down the path of thinking a residential treatment program. I did not read anything that implied that the OP didn’t want to change the lifestyle but simply was questioning the cost and value of a residential treatment program and hoping that some of it might be covered by insurance. I do agree with the last post that the cost of the treatment program if that is the avenue chosen is a trade-off with the college costs. Clearly the D cannot be “away at college” so to me I agree that it’s “moot” and the costs for the college can be wisely spent on a treatment program and if all goes well the D can re-enter a CC or a less expensive college as a cost trade-off and transition back when that point is reached.</p>
<p>ScaredDad…So much of your post could have been written by me and I understand why you feel that therapy could be pychobabble. However that “pychobabble” is the only chance your daughter has right now. It sounds like a residential program is the best way to go. Her manipulation, lies, and general behavior are driving you crazy right now and it seems that you and your wife (Is this your child from a 1st marraige) can not handle this at home. Your daughter needs to be carefully evaluated for a real diagnosis because it does not sound like simple immaturity and manipulative behavior although she is both. You have a chance to do something now that will save your daughter alot of pain later. If you choose to have her remain in the home undiagnosed with other children in the house you are risking the destuction of your entire family and you will have an even greater hole in your heart and in your family. I know it is expensive to get good residential therapy but what you do now will make the difference in what your life could become when you are dealing with this for years to come. She will not outgrow this or just shift gears she needs to be recentered so to speak, so that she could move forward. </p>
<p>It also sounds like you blame her for the rape. I also understand why you came across that way. If she was not drinking and or high she would not have been in a position to be hurt. I would also suggest that you be very sure that your daughter did not consent before you hold that boy responsible for a crime that he will live with for the rest of his life. Manipulative girls are dangerous not only to themselves but to everyone they come in contact with. Did your daughter talk about what happened regarding the rape? Was anyone at that party that could verify anything that took place? I would be less than quick to encourage her to file rape charges knowing how her behavior has affected her and your family. I am not saying that sex did not occur but how sure are you that it was rape? Imagine when all of this comes out at a trial…there will be jurors that will have a hard time believing her story especially after her behavior comes to light. </p>
<p>I also think you and your wife need to run not walk to therapy and a good drug support group. You can not help your daughter with the attitude that you have right now. Your babies are not babies anymore if they are 9 years old. They are old enough to understand their sister is sick and that mom and dad are going to do what is necessary to help her. Do not make the mistake with your younger kids by trying to protect them from this illness that your daughter has. If she had cancer they would understand the need for support and attention and your unwaivering love. I am sure you don’t want the younger kids to grow up thinking that the world revolves them, and that mom and dad made that clear since they were little, by making sure older sister did’nt upset our lives. </p>
<p>When our kids are troubled it effects the whole family. You sound like the wind has been knocked out of you and you are struggling to stay afloat. Go to therapy with your wife and get your daughter evaluated at a residential facility. You need to know what is going on so that moving forward you have some skills to deal with this for your daughter, yourself and your family. Let us know how things are going.</p>
<p>The OP’s posts do seem “odd” and “troubling,” even self-referential. He was very close to his daughter and almost seems angry at the personal rejection implied by her behavior and lies. Honestly, this does not seem healthy. Concern for her should be a priority. That is not the same thing as being indulgent.</p>
<p>I think one good reason for therapy, frankly, is for the daughter to have an adult to trust and talk to, who is not her parent. The parent’s resistance to therapy seems very strange, and may represent some desire to control. It would also be good for the OP to have some therapy, and maybe at some point the two of them together.</p>
<p>We all lose our young children to adulthood at some point. Perhaps this is the only way the daughter can break away, and she has no constructive path to accomplish that necessary separation. Just a thought.</p>
<p>I reread your post and it seems that your daughter is from a first marraige when you mentioned that she called her step grandparents that are so young. It sounds like you married a much younger woman and started a second family. Your daughter has grown up watching the step grandparents provide love and attention to the other kids and yet you say there is no family support for all of you right now. Does that mean that your daughters mother is not in the picture? If not why? Could your daughter feel the part of the step child who is watching the younger kids receive all the love of a mother figure? Could you clarify some of these points? Your daughter may have learned to be manipulative out of need to be recognized in the family unit. You said you were very close but than it also sounds like you were close as long as she behaved and did not upset the apple cart. The merging of two families is a delicate thing and it sounds like there is more to this than you are saying.</p>
<p>My daughter has battled with depression for at least 2yrs she saw a counselor 12/9-2/10</p>
<p>So she has been depressed enough for her family to notice & saw a counselor ( not a Dr?) for two months last winter.
During the last half of this year, drug/alcohol use has increased and has other acting out behaviors.
Two weeks ago she was raped ( not " date rape" if you cannot give consent) and became suicidal.
She has been blunt about crying out for help- and asking for therapy and begging parents to help her.
( However father is not inclined to do so because of " lying"</p>
<p>I really don’t know what to do! We have babies at home and no family support here at all</p>
<p>It sounds to me, that the depression manifested before the birth of the babies, if it has been going on for at least two years. Wondering about family dynamic to have babies with a depressed teen and no family support.</p>
<p>The step granmother her is more like a step mom she is so young was called last night.</p>
<p>If the grandmother is so young, how old is the mom? Just saying.
:rolleyes:</p>
<p>I agree that it sounds like turmoil in the family and it is convenient to scapegoat the oldest, but that won’t get you any resolution.
Why not give her what she has been begging for- treatment? and at the same time the whole family should go to counseling as well.</p>