Disagreement over community college

Parents Forum
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<p>Much depends on the nature of CCs where you live, but even given that, the OP’s D sounds like a kid who should be going away to a 4-year school if the family can afford it, which I gather they can.</p>

<p>I suspect that your H dreads his only child moving out, and so is using this “it was good enough for me” kind of argument to justify a plan that would keep her in the nest for a few more years. Not only do I disagree with his list of supposed plusses of CCs, in the negative column one should put the fact that it is far more difficult for a lot of kids to keep on track at a CC and actually transfer to a 4-year school. Meanwhile, if your CCs are anything like ours, your bright, motivated student will have had two years of sitting in classes pitched at the kids who couldn’t cut it in her HS classes, much less her potential college classes.</p>

<p>I think you need to continue to encourage your D to look forward to 4-year schools, go on visits, etc. Run NPCs, try to assemble a broad list of affordable schools that interest her. I have the feeling that your D’s desire to go to college and evident maturity and accomplishments will eventually override your H’s reluctance. He isn’t going to want to unreasonably thwart his girl.</p>

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<p>Sadly, I’ve seen this happen a few times the past two years. Really bright girls forced to stay home because their dad is worried they’re going to go off to college and drink and have sex. Well, maybe she will. But if you raised her right, she’ll make responsible choices. It’s called growing up. What’s the alternative? Keeping them home and sheltered, away from all of the growth and experiences one gets at a real college? Let her be poorly adjusted and forced to marry some hometown boy and never experience much of anything outside of the enclave she was raised in? There was an article in the NYT that said strong students actually REGRESS when they get put in a community college ethos. Your husband needs to stop trying to control his daughter’s life and let her go to a university. She’s EARNED it.</p>

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<p>The adjunct issue mentioned by donnaleighg is a concern for community colleges, but also for many public four year schools. My school works hard to keep our rate of classes taught by full-time faculty above the Kansas State benchmarks. I don’t know much about these except that the national average is in the mid-high 60% range for full-time staffing of classes. The problem for ALL public institutions is that legislative funding is a constantly diminishing source of funds and there is a delicate balance to raising tuition enough to keep full time faculty staffing and limiting the tuition increase so that students can afford college. Higher ed is experiencing lots of changes in all sectors and I’m certainly glad that I’m closer to the end of my career than the beginning. </p>

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<p>I’ll say this in defense of community colleges. </p>

<p>I went to University for my first semester right out of high school. Took my classes and all, and half way through the semester thought to my self “I’m paying $6500 a semester for this? Why? I can go to CC for $1500, why am I doing this?” The next semester I didn’t enroll in anything there and went to CC instead for 2 semesters, then returned when there was nothing left to take at CC. I though the CC was great and had no problems with it. I met a good friend of mine there, who later went to University with me. And even if I could afford to pay the difference between CC and University, there’s no reason to. It’s silly. I’ve got my bachelors now and I have no regrets about doing that at all. And I think it makes sense for almost every student to go to CC first instead of University right out of college. The exception might be if the kid is looking at a top private, then maybe they should go to University straight out of high school. But if she’s looking at a public school there’s no reason to go right out of high school. </p>

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<p>If money isn’t an issue then:
Daughter will miss out on her first real true college student experiences together with other 18 year-old age-level peers. This is really important for me because the kids learn everything at an “away college” experience, at the same time as their new friends, and they don’t learn by themselves. They problem-solve with other kids their age. </p>

<p>I will never forget this experience that convinced me, to have my kids shoot for the universities, even if we don’t and didn’t have the money, but this is me just being a nervous mother.</p>

<p>I was a frequent Mom volunteer at the high school especially for the sports teams. A parent/friend of one of the team girls was really upset, and wanted some advice from me. Her eldest daughter, Sara, was friends and graduated with my eldest in 2008. My eldest was attending SUNY Buffalo in fall 2008.</p>

<p>The family is/was middle class could not afford a full college tuition at that time, with 4 kids, so they sent Sara to Mesa Community College. Sara is a cute, happy, petite little thing. Sara came home, midday, somewhat upset. When Mom asked what was wrong, Sara said,
“I was asked out again by some old dude in my class.”
Mom tried not to react and said, “An old guy??”
Sara said: “Yes, he’s been bugging me to go out with him, and when I told him I wasn’t interested, and that I was just 18, he said, ‘Well you’re an adult, aren’t you? That’s good enough for me.’
Isn’t that gross, Mom? He asks me out all of the time! My lab partners say that he’s over 35 and has said that he wants to ‘get it on with me’; What should I do??” </p>

<p>After the feelings of nausea subsided, I told Mom to contact the Dean with Sara and explain the situation and to try to get Sara’s schedule changed out of that class. So while they were busy trying to switch around Sara’s classes, Daddy and Momma started escorting their eldest to classes.<br>
I know this sounds awful on my part re: ageism, but at least in the dorms, most of the kids are within the same age range! </p>

<p>I like that my daughter learned the following:<br>
How to pack and travel with peers, taking the local buses and trains to the airport.
Learning to do the laundry while sitting on the dorm washers.
Learning how to budget Momma and Daddy’s money!
Time management skills with everything!! Both daughter’s now wear watches!!!
Missing their younger siblings.
Asking questions, going to office hours, doing papers, organizing team projects, networking within her STEM major and a host of other things.</p>

<p>A lot of friendships and move-in/move-out connections are formed at the freshman and sophomore dorm levels. </p>

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<p>Definitely send your D away to college her freshman year! I highly recommend parents with budget concerns try to swing the away school for the experience the first year, then return to a cheaper school if necessary. A student can transfer to a local school and become a commuter at any time but they can never have that new college dorm experience at any other time. It made such a difference for me to live on campus 8 miles from home instead of commuting (thanks to scholarships, we found a way for me to stay away the rest of college). There is so much that goes on outside the classroom that enriches a student. A college friend missed out on all of the late night discussions- she walked from home to the U.</p>

<p>You state she is in the top 5% of her HS class- her academic peers will be found at a top tier college, not the local CC. Having brilliant TAs for discussion groups is better than being among average college students- she’ll have professors giving the lectures. She could be a candidate for Honors classes in college and usually most 4 year colleges will have more rigorous classes available. I know of HS students who have taken CC courses and they may be better than those offered in HS, but nothing like the top tier colleges.</p>

<p>Think about potential scholarships to widen her affordable college list. My 16 going on 17 year old son was able to easily handle being at a large public flagship. Don’t worry about your D. She will be with her peers. By the fall of her freshman year in college she will have matured from fall of her HS senior year, even from spring before college.</p>

<p>Do not let your H prevent her from getting the educational experience she deserves.</p>

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<p>I think you have to look closely at your individual CC…they range wildly in quality across the country. If you have one of the good ones, the decision is not so black and white. My son picked up 2 classes this summer that transferred to his uni and he loved his prof…1 man, 2 Phds, one in education and one in math. A math major, say, in the “right” CC could knock off several math classes and gened requirements and not skip a beat transferring so I would say the decision should also weigh on what major she is interested in. </p>

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<p>I disagree. It is one thing to take a class or two during HS or a summer, but spending an entire year 24/7 being connected to the CC is different. This student is in the top 5% of her class, not the middle. It will be harder for her to find students with similar abilities and stats- like being used to Honors and AP classes then being thrown in with the C students. Her peer group will be at the 4 year colleges. A math major may get the credits but won’t be able to get the same knowledge base as at a top U. All calculus courses do not cover the same amount of material. </p>

<p>You want your D to be challenged academically and by her fellow students. College isn’t about getting A’s in as many classes as possible, it is about stretching your mind as much as you can. Late night discussions can’t happen to commuters. Finding that many or most students in your class are smarter than you- not likely at a CC for this student. I have never heard of a CC that is more academically challenging than the 4 year schools in the same state.</p>

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<p>I think college is a much better social experience for students who attend the same school all four years. I made what turned out to be the best friends of my life the first two weeks of college. Transfer students often have a harder time finding their social niche. A small liberal arts college would give the small class/professor ratio/nuturing environment your husband seems to hope for. Don’t think you have said yet, but if you give us your D’s home state, stats, and possible majors, I bet this group could come up with some suggestions. Maybe you, your D, and your H should go visit a few of them. His eyes might be opened, especially if he attended a CC and then a large university, and hasn’t spent time on LAC campuses.</p>

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<p>I wasn’t top 5% of my high school class I’m pretty sure (my high school didn’t track) but I was well above the middle. I took honors and AP classes and all, I had no problem making friends of similar academic ability at CC. It’s a mischaracterization to say they’re all C students at CC. There are plenty of smart hard working students at CC. And if she goes to a public school chances are a lot of those students at her CC will transfer there too. </p>

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<p>I took the into math classes (though Calc 3, DiffEq, Linear Algebra) at CC, and while I didn’t major in math I did minor in it so I took a few more math classes at University. Had no issues with it. I didn’t feel that I was at any disadvantage. </p>

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<p>I disagree. I made friends at CC just the same as I did at University. </p>

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<p>You don’t know what you missed with those CC math courses compared to a top U’s best classes. UW often suggests students who pass the AP calculus exam start over because many are lost if they attempt the second semester math course. This student is in the top 5%, vastly different from the average college student at the average 4 year college who may be in the top half or even third or quartile. Needing to break into a new school can be easier at a larger school. My college friends came from my major, not my dorm. All friends don’t have to be academic peers but it sure is nice to have deep discussions where the other understand what you are getting at.</p>

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<p>Our local CC only started offering Calculus in recent years. Last time I looked, it certainly didn’t offer the classes you cite.</p>

<p>There are some states/areas that have a well-established CC system that offer courses to advanced HS students.There are others that cater mostly to non-traditional students and kids who could not cut it in standard CP high school courses.</p>

<p>The latter provide a valuable service, but it is not ideally suited to a student like the OP’s D.</p>

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<p>Well, I do know it’s a lot compared to the most rigorous option at my University. But I wasn’t going to take those anyway. They’re aimed at those among the 1000 or so best math students in a particular graduating year in the country. But compared to the standard math courses at my University, I didn’t miss much. And if I did miss anything it didn’t harm me. </p>

<p>I probably would have been top 5% if I went to a high school in the next town over, even though I wasn’t one at mine. I had intellectual peers at community college. It’s not all full of mediocre students like you’re saying. </p>

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<p>Same, for the most part. And you’ll meet people in your major when you transfer to University. </p>

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<p>Heard this a million times. Usually it is “if I went to public school…” The vast majority of people who say this would be shocked to discover that the top 5% in many schools is filled with tip top students that they couldn’t begin to challenge. </p>

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<p>It’s fine if you don’t believe it. I don’t even really know if it’s true. Doesn’t really matter to my point whether it is or not if you’re willing to believe that I’m “reasonably smart.” My point is that there are smart kids at CC too. She’d likely have intellectual peers at CC as well. </p>

<p>I would have thought most CCs would have been similar to mine. I went to Washtenaw Community College in Michigan, I guess you can compare your local options to see if they’re similar. At the very least it’s improper to say that at no CC will there be intellectual peers to her. </p>

<p>Though I will reiterate to clarify, if she’s looking at the best private schools out there she probably shouldn’t go to CC. If she’s looking at any public or a lesser private school then I think CC is a perfectly good option. </p>

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<p>If finances/emotional maturity/etc. aren’t an issue, it should be up to the daughter, is the main point.</p>

<p>CC’s can be a fine option, but the dad should look at things from her point of view. </p>

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It depends on the schools. Some schools will awards 2 semesters Calculus credits for AP Calculus BC exam score of 5. Some schools will not award any credits for AP exams at all.</p>

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<p>I think the dad’s insistence on “the plan” when it is clearly HIS plan and no one else’s is obviously a big part of the problem. I think you should take your kid on some visits without him along, honestly. Look at some LACs where she might be eligible for merit aid as a good starting point.</p>

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Yes, a few students of my kids’CC are transferring ti Ivy League schools. I would think they are smarter kids</p>

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<p>Lots of misinformation in this thread.</p>

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<p>Uh, no, this is not ‘essentially’ the same as a TA.</p>

<p>First of all, having a PHD is not a necessary condition for being a professor. Saul Kripke and Donald Martin are two extremely intelligent and well respected professors. Neither has a PHD. Additionally, I would imagine many professors in business and law schools also lack PHDs. In their place are professional degrees and years of experience. But they’re STILL professors.</p>

<p>Second, I would imagine most TAs have very little influence with regards to what’s being taught in the class. They’re mostly limited to menial tasks like grading. The professors at the CCs decide their own classes and what they’re going to want to teach. I would imagine under some guidelines from the department, but they’re essentially in control.</p>

<p>Thirdly, “professor” is one, of many titles at a university, including community colleges. There are adjunct professors, assistant professors, associate professors, and (full-tenured) professors. Most professors have PHDs but it is in no way a requirement to have a PHD.</p>

<p>The biggest difference between CC professors and Univ. professors will probably be research. Other than that there isn’t much of a difference.</p>

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<p>This was not my experience. Perhaps I had an atypical experience, but most of the people who taught my classes were tenured professors.</p>

<p>There are plenty of valid reasons for choosing a community college. Just because you HAVE the money to spend doesn’t mean you necessarily SHOULD spend it on something. Your post didn’t leave me with the impression that you’re affluent. </p>

<p>Secondly, going to community college and interacting with non-traditional students is a very humbling experience (it was for me at least.) It contributes to growth in a different way that a four-year university does, but it still contributes.</p>

<p>What I will say is that community colleges do have less resources though. If you’re seriously considering that route, I’d look in-depth at the current financial footing of the community college in question. You don’t want your daughter to be stuck somewhere without adequate resources for her education.</p>

<p>I think the best place to start would be by looking at the financial aid packages your daughter receives. If she receives a good enough scholarship, this might not be an issue.</p>