Discussion of Changes at USNA

jadler03 · August 25, 2007, 6:44am

USNA69,

The food situation is random. Some days and meals there isn’t enough food and some days there are. I didn’t get to eat the other day because they didn’t set enough tables up at noon meal. This infuriated me because they only setup 3 “overflow” tables and then simply said…“we are out of seats.” Instead of going to get more plates, utensils, etc…they turned people away. That is not excusable…it seemed rather lazy and convenient for MFSD to take the easy way out. And yes, I do know the full story on this one…I asked.

Also, in response to talking to 3/C and 4/C… it could be good leadership of the 1/C and 2/C, who allow their troops to eat first?

At lunch yesterday, I talked to a kid who hadn’t ate noon meal all week because there were not enough seats for him.

Right now, I would say the food situation IS a problem. It shouldn’t be a problem for 3/C and 4/C because they should be getting served!

USNA69 · August 25, 2007, 7:56am

If this is true, someone will get fired. Plain and simple. It is inexcusable.

When you, as a youngster, I assume, were turned away and then, of course, reported to your squad leader who, I am assuming, was sitting at a table with food, what did he tell you? Did he give you his seat and then go talk to the platoon leader, who in turn, gave him his seat, and so on, up till the regimental commander told the brigade commander. The Brigade Commander cannot sit down to a table of food until each and every midshipman in the brigade has done the same. To do so is horrible leadership, and that goes for everyone in the chain of command all the way down to the squad leaders. I am beginning to think Whistle Pig is correct. This might be a big leadership lab.

You say in one sentence that the plebes and youngsters are being fed which shows good leadership but in the next sentence you say you, as a younster, are being turned away, which implies the opposite. Still hard to figure out what is going on.

Another aside: When the ‘overflows’ filled up, did you check each and every squad table for empties? Can you honestly tell me that there was not one single empty seat in the entire mess hall or did you simply assume that Food Services was incompetent and start complaining? That used to be a part of a plebes ‘education’, to make him ‘well rounded’, to require him to ‘visit’ other tables occassionally. If part of the brigade is still in MacDonough and part in King, that might be contributing to the problem.

juliemrn · August 25, 2007, 9:15am

I think that it helps to have the perspective of one who is actually in the situation. Thanks for posting jadler03.

I’ve heard the exact same thing from my Mid, although I’m sure not he, and I, will be now accused of “whining” because the observation was made. The food situation is ridiculous and there is NO excuse for it, plain and simple. Time for those responsible, all the way up to the chain of command, to reread “A Message to Garcia.”

JamTex · August 25, 2007, 9:16am

2010, Jadler

Why do you even engage this guy? It is evident he doesn’t want to hear the truth from mids that are here, living w/ this everyday. Heck, he probably still believes there are WMD in Iraq and Hussein had something to do w/ 9/11.

So, 1969, As w/ so much that you assume–jadler is not a youngster–what you assume is simply incorrect.

Listen folks, there is a problem w/ food service right now. Plain and simple. 
Many 1/c go w/out random meals in favor of the lower class. There are frequent times when there simply not enough seats. [Commitment dinner seating was all screwed up.]

Brigade commander not sitting down until each and every midshipman in the brigade has done the same?
Brigade command is simply following the examle of our esteemed Academy senior leadership . . . eating their dinner while confusion reigns around them. I AM NOT criticizing the Brigade Command; this is not their fault.

Oh, and we ALL UNDERSTAND that Supe is under no obligation to explain himself. I believe Lt. Cmdr. Queeq well-established that principle.

USNA69 · August 25, 2007, 9:21am

JamTex, juliemm, may I remind you of the folk tale of the eight blind Indians and the elephant. They were all very sure of themselves in each one’s very unique and totally different description of an elephant.

JamTex · August 25, 2007, 9:32am

YOU should be reminded that in the tale, the blind men were actually touching the elephant, not trying to describe the elephant via the internet.

Zaphod · August 25, 2007, 10:43am

**GOOD GRIEF! WHAT THE BLOODY HELL IS GOING ON DOWN THERE!!! **:mad::mad::mad:

Jadler, PLEASE tell me there is at least SOME exaggeration in what you’re saying. It’s not that I don’t want to believe you, it’s just that what you are describing is SO COMPLETELY alien! :eek:

Under the circumstances you are describing, YES, that would be the proper thing to do.

Unreal. :mad:

Naptown4 · August 25, 2007, 11:20am

To the Mids on this forum.
Please don’t give USNA69 another thought. He will never believe that his beloved institution could get it wrong. Not all the old grads feel that way. Most that live here in Annapolis are saddened and embarrassed to see what is happeneing. One was quoted as saying “We didn’t have to cancel the Musical’s during WWII, Korea, Vietnam, or Desert Storm so why do we now?” and he is much older than 69.

Believe me they have gotten itr wrong in the past. I have lived here long enough to see a Supe relieved after less than one year. I have seen another Supe asked to quietly retire early. I have seen thrm have to bring back an old Supe to fix trhings. I have seen a Commandant relieved and gone in one day. I have seen another Dant quietly reassigned. The system isn’t perfect, they have made bad choices in the past.

I KNOW what you are saying is the truth. My husband is a grad and my son is a Mid. We live within walking distance of the yard and somehow ended up unofficially sponsoring Mids in every class and in many different Company’s. They do NOT whine to me they answer my questions when I ask. So I asked if what I was hearing was true. I got a resounding yes to all my questions. So I know and believe what you are saying is widespread through the Brigade. What really upset my alumni husband that when he asked all our Mids how much they see the Supe around the yard ALL said they had only seen him ONE time!

I have one sponsor Mid who is concerned about their PRT score as they are no longer allowed to workout whenever they have free time around their other commitments. Gee to me that is Fleet related. We have another Mid on the soccer team who is upset because the mids are NOT allowed to attend their games during the week because they conflict with the Mando study hours. When they asked the Supe to allow the Mids to support them his response was “fans don’t win games” I have another Mid who sings in the Glee Club and most appearences HAVE been cancelled. Gee what is a USO show then? I know the Marine band and singers perform all around the country to represent the Marines and the President. And what about the talent shows they have on the ships in the fleet? I read in the paper that Mids for Kids was cancelled as Supe felt it was being used as a field trip. I know personally the impact Mids for Kids had on my son in elemenmtary school so to me this is a great loss. I had a call from a woman who had just awarded them money and wanted to know what would happen to that money. I can see a direct correlation of Mids for Kids to the fleet because a local Marine wrote to his Athletic Director here at an Annapolis High School asking him if he could send the schools old sports equitment. They had been trying to help the children in Iraq. The AD took the request to the newspaper and we sent brand new soccer balls, bats, balls, gloves, etc. This sure sounds like Mids for Kids to me. The Annapolitans are not happy that the Supe has cut off the city from the Yard.

Hang in there there are people woirking for you all. I will continue to feed my Mids even tho I thought I already was with my tax dollars!

navy2010 · August 25, 2007, 11:24am

you could not be further from the truth. Athlete. No opportunity to drink- under age and underclassed. Goofing off- can’t answer that one for sure- not there to “observe”… but from what I hear of his “days” not a minute to do that…vocal? no…not really…but it is apparent when every conversation starts and ends with “send more food- there is nothing to eat.”

for some, that appears to be true. Why it is not as true for EVERYONE is the issue. Sorry… perhaps for a female plebe one slice of pizza for lunch is enough. For an athlete with practices, leatherneck workouts, weightlifting 5 times weekly, a PRT at 0530… sorry, “one slice for all” does not cut it.

No, perhaps you are just plain “wrong.”
There were 12 mids at the table.
Just as there were 12 the night that 7 slices of “meat” was served.
And the day there were hamburgers served on moldy bread.
(you can times that by many tables)
And the morning when the “biscuts with gravy” was served- gravy only.
(times that by even more).
No seats- thankfully we dodged that one…sorry for the mids that weren’t as lucky.
Isolated???
You have got to be kidding.
and no, I am not being “used.” 
I raised a kid with a lot more integrety- he at least knows to respect his mom…and the rest of the moms out there as well.

Perhaps you, USNA69, need to LISTEN.
And this is not about an elephant.
Time to call a spade a spade.

Jamtex- you are absolutely correct. On several points.

First- why i “engage” this guy is because he is in a position to infuence other candidates- which he reminds me “he has many.” I respect the work he does-but we differ on how he chooses to “council” on this site. He is well aware of my position on his “view” of parents.

Second- he is not unlike other “bullies in the playground” that I have met. Someone has to stand up to them, and THIS MOM is not shying away. He has coined us the “meddling moms.” So be it. I WILL WEAR THAT PROUDLY.
And lest he assert that we are “misguided”, I would suggest he has missed the target entirely.

At least Z tries to listen, and he respects the moms. For that he gets my support, even if we disagree at times. I know for a fact we have more in common than not in regards to basic principles, and he has given me valuable advice on many an occassion- perhaps more than I deserve. And it is for that very reason that when our opinions do “differ,” I take a “time out” to rethink my position to examine if I am still “on taget” or not. Sometimes I hold fast, and sometimes we have to agree to disagree. Sometimes I even get “won over.” And sometimes I even correct his course. On that, I have no doubt.

USNA69- an elephant of a different color. But rest assured, I tried. The only reason I continue to respond is so that the candidates and their parents in the pool of some 4800+ “hits” that have “viewed” this thread don’t get to hear it just through his lens.

Third.
You are correct. The upperclass have made sure the 4C and 3C are getting served…first I will add. Which is exactly why I do my part in keeping the wardroom stocked as best I can, knowing the upperclass will access that, and if lucky enough to be a 1C, can at least store some items in their room frig. But lest anyone think they have not stepped up to the plate, let there be no doubt- they have. If I was closer, I would be holding weekly tailgate dinners out of the back of my car like some other parent did.

They must sit with their squad. Those are the orders.

obviously someone is responsible.
Obviously a plan was implimented without proper planning…
Just as obviously, someone missed the mark.

No one is in MacDonough. They are in Dalghren.
And the others are in the part of Kings Hall that has been open.
And glad to see the “lightbulb” is finally starting to flicker… since I mentioned that as “one possible cause” some 50-odd posts ago.

Pay attention.
ps… Jadler is an upperclassman. I repeat. Pay attention.

Z— sadly, no.

Time2 · August 25, 2007, 11:33am

Amen to that…I am not going away either, we are ALL entitled to our OPINIONS on here whether or not someone else happens to agree with them.

(P.S. I am a guy, but still agree with you here)!!!

navy2010 · August 25, 2007, 11:37am

^^^^ LOL…
welcome…your “meddling dad” button is on it’s way! ;)

Time2 · August 25, 2007, 11:39am

Thank you !!! :)

navy2010 · August 25, 2007, 11:47am

Naptown4-
thankyou for your post and levity on the issues at hand.

You mentioned someone was concerned over the effects on their PRT score.
Today reality hit.
Our son aces them.
He reported this time around, he posted his “slowest running time ever.”
Thankfully, still well within the parameters- but not to “his standard.”
God help the kids that struggle with this to begin with.
Enough said.

USNA69 · August 25, 2007, 11:57am

[Quote=navy2010]

They must sit with their squad. Those are the orders.

[/quote]

This is exactly the misguided misinformation with which I am having a problem.

Tables seat 12. Are we to assume all companies less those sitting at training tables are composed of multiples of 12? Are we then to assume that there are enough tables such that if a company has 97 midshipman that they will rate a 9th table for a single individual? Are we further to assume that a contractor has enough luxury built into his contract or is expected by contract to supply that table of 1? Midshipmen roam. As one stated above, there are overflow tables. 97 has to go find the company with 95. There is also another myriad of reasons that companies don’t show up at meals in perfect multiples of 12. And I doubt that they are required to sit in each others lap.

‘Meals required’ arithmetic isn’t hard. Total mids + guests - midshipmen authorized to miss meals /12 = number of tables to prepare.

Are there empty seats spread throughout the mess hall? You don’t know. I don’t know, but, perhaps, I am in a better position to speculate. It is well documented that a few of the Brigade are disgruntled with having mando meals (sounds like a Village People song). Human nature, if one doesn’t approve of something, is to complain. Is it easier and more convenient just to leave the mess hall and complain rather than look for that last empty seat. 2010, I asked a mid who knew the answer to reply. I did not mean it as a conduit for more misinformation.

Bread with mold. Wake up folks. Annapolis is in the south. The very humid hot south. Bread molds. Does it happen all the time? Every meal? I have picked mold out of bread my entire life.

Gravy by itself? Or with hamburger buns? Which is it? Let’s get our stories straight. See above statement about mold. Ovens break. Things don’t get thawed. Supply chains break. Are we going to GQ over a single incident of the meal not being exactly as per the menu. Grow up people.

Yes, this situation is totally alien to me. Just as you can say it was “obviously” mismanagement, I can say that it is not. I have spent the better part of my life in the Navy and I cannot, in my wildest dream, imagine this being either as bad as described or a result of simple gross neglect. I will bet you dollars to donuts, when the smoke clears, that I will have less egg on my face than many of the other posters on this thread.

Do we need to take up a collection for alarm clocks so they can get up early and work out? Or is that also against the rules.

MacDonough, Dalghren, sorry, I get them confused.

2010, are you implying that your son posted his slowest running time ever as a result of the new mandatory study hour which has been in effect for five days or the lack of food because he cannot tolerate the care packages you are sending him, again for less than a week ? Or was it a simple aside that has nothing to do with this discussion.

WPSON2010 · August 25, 2007, 12:19pm

JamTex wrote, “Why do you even engage this guy?”

A good question that I would extend the scope of by asking why would anyone engage USNA69?

This is the same fellow who two weeks ago wrote that most West Point cadets join the Corps because they “just want a free education”. A week later we are reminded that a West Point education is not free as two graduates loose their lives, one after having voluntarily returned for his third tour of duty.

And on this one thread alone we have, “Maybe you should stick with things you know about such as dead-end civilian jobs”, “misinformed meddling moms”, "whining and crying clubs”, “parents with periphery knowledge”, “whining and crying” mids, and mids who are “youngsters”, not men or women. Sadly, this is not an aberration for him.

Simply stated USNA69 is an embarrassment and blight on this and other forums. While I’m grateful a West Point graduate isn’t acquitting him or herself in his manner, I in no way believe he is representative of the outstanding men and women of the Naval Academy.

Whistle_Pig · August 25, 2007, 12:24pm

Your style, like mine, can occasionally leave room for growth, imho, but I’m with you on this one 69er. This seems to be mismanaged, but the fleet’s not about to sail on an empty stomach. And I have an improved PRT score to put in the other column. Go figure.

But one thing I concur on with 2010 on her sky-is-falling opinion (to which she is of course entitled) …

Along with those who might have slipped a bit this time. And along with those who might have done a little better this time. And all those who overcame impending starvation and ran like bunnies.

Might we all agree on asking the Lord’s blessing on one and all? Including the Supe, the 'Dant, and all the other perpetrators out there. Amen?

But it’s a real reach to suggest or conclude that the Brigade bunnies are slowing down because their morning gravy allegedly has no buns?

btw, 3 calls, 7 emails, 4 text messages this week … all is well in one little corner of the Yard.

USNA69 · August 25, 2007, 12:49pm

WPSON2010, the only part of your post that bears a response:

.

Since the 1800s, 3rd Class USNA Midshipmen have been referred to as ‘Youngsters’. Very similiar to the Woop usage of ‘cows’.

navy2010 · August 25, 2007, 1:02pm

I cannot speak to the seating. I reported what I was told when I asked my mid the question. I reported, clearly, that 1. he had to sit with his squad and 2. he was not affected by not having a seat. 3. his table had 12 seats and 12 mids.

both are true.
when the biscuts went short, they substituted hamburger buns.
Some were served a slice of bread instead of the buns.
And some got none of the above.

ovens do break.
bread does go moldy.
supply chains break.
all true.
one incident- no problem.
Two- ok, they are “just getting underway.”
Three- hmmmm. In some arena’s, you would be “out.”
Four. what to say.
We are going on week 3. There are still issues with quantity and quality.
But you know what… things “happen.”
As for the “menu,” I could care less.
Trivilize it all you want.

I posted that I am trying to exercise patience with the system.
First, tables being served. They are.
Second, quantity. Still an open issue.
Third, quality. Will put the moldy bread in this catagory as a little PCN never hurt anyone. But there are limits.

No one said it was “gross neglect.”
It is clearly A FAILURE TO PLAN.
Worst still, A FAILURE TO PLAN FOR A CASE OF FAILURE.

As for “not believing this in your wildest dream”…
time to wake up.
sorry- just too many mids,parents,alumni-parents, sponsor-parents,upperclass… reporting the same issues… let us not forget the dad who posted about the 8lbs his mid lost during the first week back at the academy- which he faulted the food issue… but heck, they’re all “lying” right??? GIVE ME A BREAK.

don’t count on it. But I will take that bet and raise you a glass of Merlot…no, make it a bottle… have to share it with all the other “meddling moms… and dads” who have filled by PM box to FULL CAPACITY since your posts hit this thread.

As for his “slowest running time”…
not sure “why.”
In part, may very well have to do with nutrition. There is not much in the store-on-the-shelf-just-add-water-and-micorwave-stull that I was able to send. And no time to go and microwave anything… wait- he did tell me he was able to cook raman noodles one night…sure to be lots of nutrition in there. 
Not sure if is because of “less time” to fit “distance” running in.
Not sure if is because the heat and humidity is getting to him with the broken AC in his room… still waiting to be repaired… and “awake sweating all night.” Whatever- I sent him a fan and he will cope.
Not sure if it is ALL THE FLUCTUATIONS IN HIS BLOOD GLUCOSE LEVEL and the DO-I PRODUCE INSULIN-OR-DON’T-I body response that has something to do with it (that would be my guess… but heck, I ONLY HAVE 33+ YEARS AS A REGISTERED NURSE, INCLUDING 16+ AS A CORONARY CARE HEAD NURSE, AND 6+ YEARS AS THE CRITICAL CARE NURSE EDUCATOR…WITH A MASTERS DEGREE AND NOW A DOCTORIAL CANDIDATE…WHAT TO I KNOW!!! I’M JUST A “MEDDLING MOM.”

I will tell you this-
he was “fit” when he reported back… a personal trainer, weight lifting 5 days a week, running, and 3 weeks of lax scrimmages made sure of that. Add to that 80gms of protein drinks daily, “whey” protein on EVERYTHING, and 6 meals a day to “make weight.” Not easy when you are doing all the above.

DON’T EVEN THINK ABOUT GOING THERE WITH ME.

And so as not to be “overly dramatic,” his PRT running time was well within the stated requirements… but every PRT has posted an improved time… HE was dissapointed to post his “slowest time ever.”

Mind you… one of his 4 VARSITY sports throughout 4 years of HS was TRACK… and anchor leg of 400x400 that earned him both CONFERENCE AND COUNTY CHAMPIONSHIPS.

I have NO explanation other than to ask “whats up.”

I tmay very well be the ONE SLICE OF PIZZA FOR LUNCH.
Added to the GRAVY AND NOTHING TO PUT IT ON BREAKFAST.
Lets not forget the NO MEAT WITH GRAVY DINNER…OH, AND CUT OFF A PIECE TO SEND IT DOWN THE LINE.
And the MOLDY BREAD.
I didn’t even mention the chicken fingers that made it HALF WAY DOWN THE TABLE… or the chicken wrap that smelled “rancid” (his EXACT words, not mine)…“it couldh’t have been that bad” i said…“MOM… IT WAS BROWN.”
PERHAPS IT IS A CUMULATIVE EFFECT OF ALL OF THE ABOVE.

The only one besides YOU not “getting it” is the guy that didn’t believe there were iceburgs north of the what-ever parallel when he took the titanic out of port and ordered “full steam ahead!” …and he has an excuse 'cause he has long been fish food!
Add to that club that other doubting thomas who “didn’t get it” either…

Confused??? On that we may finally find some agreement!

Time2 · August 25, 2007, 1:17pm

Some people just never ‘get it’ even if you hit them over the head with a baseball bat.

jadler03 · August 25, 2007, 1:21pm

USNA69,

I did eye every table. I cannot say that I saw every single table, I might have missed between 2 or 4 (and I am not blowing those numbers up).

I walked up one side (2 tables on each side per row) and down the other, visually inspecting each table. I counted about 30-40 people (mostly 1/C, but a few 2/C) not having seats…so there was no question that there were not enough seats.

I talked to Brigade staff and I requested that they not sit down for meal until at least 5 minutes after everyone had been told to take their seats. I said that they should ensure that no 4/C, then 3/C, then 2/C, then classmates are without a seat. The same day that I did not get to eat, they sat down (mistakenly) and ate, but realized it when they were eating because they discussed about it. So when I made the request, they completely agreed and told me that they had a conversation on it.

Everyone eats with their company, unless they have 4 or more stripes (Battalion Commanders and up)…they eat at Brigade tables, though they aren’t required to…Brigade staff (of any rank) can eat at Brigade tables if they cannot find a spot within their company (that is how I interpret it).

I am smart enough to look at all the tables before leaving. I am also smart enough to try the other 2 mess halls, but when you have a 1250 meeting…it limits what you can do. If they had more plates and utensils out, we could use the unused tables!

FYI, the first Thursday back (during reform), King Hall set up one wing to accomodate 3000+ people to eat (or might possibly want to)…minus the few per company who did not choose to eat, there simply was not enough tables…that might be understandable for the one day of inconvience (that night was reform night)…BUT is it not possible to clean tables off as people finish eating and then putting new plates and utensils down? It should have been common sense to realize that you can’t fit over half the size of the brigade in one wing of King Hall at the same time. The sad thing is instead of trying to fix the problem, they turned people away. It doesn’t take a Harvard graduate to resolve this problem. It is kind of ironic too, you would think that they would have learned their lesson from this incident and had standby plates/utensils, just in case they underestimated during the AcYear. Of course, that would make sense.

In general, most 1/C who I have talked to believe that the Supe and Dant treat as children. Not one (that I have talked to) has disagreed with what I said in an earlier post (about decision making). In other words, most 1/C feel there is no trust. As others mention, we understand that things are different on deployment (we aren’t arguing that)…why practice? If that is the case, cancel classes, set up a CIC and lets pretend. Now the first 8 weeks of 1/C PE classes (suppose to be PE elective…tennis, golf, etc) are now PRT classes…we do track workouts, etc. To those that have taken the PRT every semester and achieved A’s…not exempt (only those who took PRT during PS and passed). So now we have someone telling us how to workout…ONE TIME PER WEEK! (Like this really will make a difference between someone failing and passing).

To sum my feelings, I feel like I have a collar and leash attached to it. If we are going to be officers in 9 months, then we should be treated close to such. I am sure many CO’s don’t baby their ENS. If we are the face of the Navy, then why do we get charged a weekend for going to an away football game? I complain as a 1/C…but how about a 3/C who has only 2 weekends per semester or even a plebe who doesn’t have any? Plebes have an already challenging year…at least let them attend an away football game. It isn’t that much of a distraction.

I believe that USNA is not heading in the right direction right now. I care about my people and I care about having good leadership (and you can bet I am learning a lot about bad leadership). The Supe and Dant have institued some good policies, such as the 1/C wearing khakis and setting up the vision of getting “us” ready for the fleet. The liberty policy isn’t even being argued…most 1/C understand that.

I have heard from a credible source that even Company Officers are having a problem with some policies…mostly with the drinking spy operations.

As many other 1/C say, “I have never been so happy to sing.”

I layed out my opinion, which I rarely do, and probably won’t on this topic again.

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