Discussion of Changes at USNA

<p>prof- just a note, the Dant is a woman.</p>

<p>^^^^ What does that matter? There are quite of few people who post without knowing the facts.</p>

<p>Does anyone know if NROTC and OCS are revising their training/policies to be more in line with USNA's?</p>

<p>"maybe the mids should spend their first two years at West Point, get toughened up, then return to Annapolis for the ECA's."</p>

<p>Yeah, and they can join the sailing team so they'll know which end of a ship is which.
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.it's a joooooke......</p>

<p>Part of the sailing team's mission statement reads, "to enhance the growth of Cadet leadership qualities through constant exercise of instant strategic and tactical decision-making in the heat of competition; to practice leadership and teamwork on a daily basis in a physically and mentally demanding environment; and to act as ambassadors of the U.S. Military Academy and the U.S. Army."</p>

<p>Sounds like a pretty good reason for sailing to me.</p>

<p>1USNA1UIUC: It was my understanding that NROTC units provided the "same" naval science classes as USNA, and that summer training was to follow the same manual and guidelines. I would assume that length of training rotations could be quite different for USNA versus NROTC. </p>

<p>We have found several NROTC units that have mandatory study periods during the academic year, but they typically only apply to freshmen and upperclassmen who have less than satisfactory performance.</p>

<p>We're famous... From the CAPITAL ONLINE News article...</p>

<p>"A few people have posted comments about the food situation at the academy on College Confidential, an Internet site frequented by parents and students." </p>

<p>BTW... my plebe told me today that not having enough food on the table to feed the midshipmen was the norm so far.. THAT IS SO SAD!</p>

<p>Sorry, I meant the Superintendent AND this situation ISN'T about food but the respect to the Midshipmen, especially the Firsties who have honored the rules for three years and now have them thrown back into their faces. I am truly disappointed in a senior Navy Officer who would show such disrespect. </p>

<p>Of course, everyone is entitled to his/her opinion.</p>

<p>Infamous.</p>

<p>WPSon ... I'm really happy hearing that WP has a sail team. Mine is on the USNA squad, and I lamented he might never be able to get that star. All for naught. Strong words Prof. I don't believe respect is at issue here. To the contrary, the Supe may respect his charges sufficiently that he's prepared to take heat that follows any rein-tightening, imo.</p>

<p>What is disrespectful are parents flapping their gums to the press. Now THAT's sad. What an embarassment to their Mids these dishonorable folks are.</p>

<p>As I said everyone has their opinion but in 50+ years I had the opportunity to observe and interview great leaders, both in and out of the military and none of them, ruled by degrading the traditions to just make themselves look tough and almight. Future Officers learn by doing not just by being told "what to do".
My 3 year old grandson may learn from that method by not young men and women who we want to lead this country. If there is a problem at the Academy, then identify it and have the midshipmen solve it. Don't treat them like babies and just take all their dearly earned liberities alway from them. </p>

<p>I personally have not hear one logical military reason for ditching on the upperclassmen. He may want to become a hero to the fourth class by giving them more liberities next year but he's only making a you know what of himself. </p>

<p>Does anyone know someone who can have a man to man talk with this guy. If they would have been someone like this at the Academy when my daughter went there, she probably wouldn't have. We always taught her to be fair and honest not play games. I think she got that respect during her years there but this!!!</p>

<p>
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What is disrespectful are parents flapping their gums to the press.

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</p>

<p>unfortunately, this pales in comparison to the disrespect going on elsewhere.</p>

<p>What is unfortunate about this entire food episode is that, when the smoke clears, the immature impatient midshipmen and their gum flapping parents might think they were in some way responsible for the improvements.</p>

<p>The following is based entirely on the rumor, which I have no idea if it is correct or not, that there is a new contractor starting next week. If this rumor is true, the only logical explanation is that the old contract has expired and a new contract, featuring a new and improved menu, with a new contractor is being implemented. There is no way that a govt contractor was "fired" for incompetence based on a single week of performance to a new standard. </p>

<p>Unfortunately, the new regs had to be implemented at the beginning of the ac year, knowing that they would be asking a "lame duck" contractor to step up performance for the last week of his contract. Hire new people for a week? Sure. He paid lip service and the administration knew that they couldn't get blood from a turnip.</p>

<p>So, next week there will be a few growing pains and in another week or so things will be back to normal. Hopefully, a few embarassed mids will realize that they can no longer share too much with their meddling moms. Maybe, for themselves, a slight amount of patience gained and maturity improved. Hopefully, a few moms will realize that they were out of line and will, in the future, now knowing that their anonymous comments are fair game for the BS, think twice before going on a factless crusade. Only time will tell.</p>

<p>69 you're on the $. And the media will no doubt be gloating with the same misguided notion that they somehow "made a difference." And I guess they did. My mid did not even recognize he was in the midst of a "problem" until the clarivoyants at the BS told him so, and he told me. I had to chuckle when I hung up.</p>

<p>I've a sibling working @ DoD in vender service and informed my wife and I about this situation weeks before our Mid ever matriculated. It's not the contract that's the problem, it's the execution and oversight that's been a problem for many semesters apparently. I'm betting the growing pains are short-lived in what promises to be a high profile platform for a good while now.</p>

<p>It remains though that any among us who've become "traitors" tooting our tubas to the news media ought to be sorely ashamed at how we've undermined our own Mids. Don't you hate "anonymous" quotes? Real courage there. If you're gonna spill your guts at least have the stones to tell readers where they're coming from. And it's not just to reporters ... it's on the parent listservs. I can't believe the mods allow, tolerate, encourage this.</p>

<p>And I pity their poor Mid once they're meddling mommies are outted. Perhaps especially if he/she's from Texas? Or his mama is. :eek: I'll bet there are some interesting conversations around that Thanksgiving table ... Maybe not.</p>

<p>
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I've a sibling working @ DoD in vender service and informed my wife and I about this situation weeks before our Mid ever matriculated. It's not the contract that's the problem, it's the execution and oversight that's been a problem for many semesters apparently.

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</p>

<p>WP if that is indeed the case then the decision to move to mandatory meals and dramatically increasing the meal requirements without any ramp up doesn’t make much sense does it? If the system was broken and or not performing up to task for many semesters then I think it would be fair to characterize this situation as something people were aware of as they implemented the changes? Assuming your information is correct, that doesn’t put a better spin on things, does it? If the food vendor couldn’t get “X” meals right what would make you think they would be able to produce 5 or 10 times that amount without some changes or time to ramp up to that new level with some established benchmarks for performance assessment along the way? </p>

<p>In the end is any of this a big deal? No. The kids will adapt and overcome as mine said to me on a few occasions. I think underlying this issue is the fact that upperclassmen aren’t all that thrilled with the proposed changes in other areas and the food debacle just happens to be a more obvious problem that gives them an opportunity to vent. In terms of parents, I can’t say I’m too surprised, as a parent you’re told about the institution and it’s expectations for excellence, it’s not unreasonable for the parents of Mids to have a similar level of expectations when it comes to the performance of the Academy. We’re just talking about food after all. The Academy is not a battle group in the South China sea, it’s a stones throw from Washington, they’re aren’t any logistical hurdles to overcome. </p>

<p>I’m sorry but I have to disagree with your suggestion that parents or even Mids talking to the press should be characterized as traitors to the institution. Talking to the press is always a risky business that may not provide you with the results you expect or hope for, but I think the legacy of the Naval Academy is not going to be put in any jeopardy because some people are complaining about a lack of food. National security has not been compromised. If they are speaking truthfully, and not misrepresenting the situation, how can that be a crime? </p>

<p>I would not advise my son to talk to the press, nor would I, given my past experiences. That is not to say there might come a time where I feel differently. What I would not do is frame it in such terms; if you talk you’re a traitor. Our military has suffered from a multitude of public relations disasters because of the efforts of some to suppress events that should not have been kept quiet. Putting a career ahead of the interests of your country is not patriotic nor is the culture of silence something I would try to impress upon Mids without some thoughtful discussion; as it’s not all black and white. When things do come out, and inevitably they do, the participants look worse and more often then not, the greater crime becomes the cover-up.</p>

<p>USNA69, Whistle - Must agree with you 110%. This type of 'gum flapping' or 'meddling' is a symptom of some (not all, but a whole lot) Baby Boomer parents who think that the way to their children's success is to throw adult tantrums.</p>

<p>I teach at a university, and once a year I'm in charge of a large pre-med course. Mandatory for medical school, and anything lower than a "A-" is going to ding your application pretty significantly.</p>

<p>Every year in the middle of the semester I get the influx of 'helicopter parents' when 19, 20-year-old Johnny or Janie is pulling a B or a C. Threats like you wouldn't believe - I have heard, "I am a large donor to this school... I am pulling my support..." and "I played golf with the Chancellor last week, and..." and my all-time favorite, "I am contacting my lawyers..."</p>

<p>Every year I just nod politely, check with Johnny's T.A., who tells me the real story - that Johnny's work is subpar, he's frequently MIA from recitations, etc. - and then get back to my job. I've never been sued, never been in any type of job difficulty - and never seen these kids get into medical or pharmaceutical or grad school, either.</p>

<p>This kind of parenting, IMO, does no good whatsoever for the child - and this is at a large research university. I think the effect is magnified several times when you're at a service academy. </p>

<p>The net result of these changes will no doubt include the transfer of a good chunk of these kids (and, thankfully, their parents!) out Gate 1 and into a college that is more suited to their needs. I don't think that this will be detrimental to the USNA in the least.</p>

<p>I understand and agree rjr, that the issue is not one of national security concern. But the issue is not the issue. The issue is how we respond, and more importantly, how our youth consequently respond. Like with my son and reading about his newly discovered problem yesterday in the Balt Sun, if WE confirm it's a problem, indeed it can and often becomes one. </p>

<p>And beyond that, re: the SAs, as parents I believe we should be loyal to the process, no matter what we think. We are now part of this family, like it or otherwise, and I don't think the picture of "traitor" is out of place here. It's the same concept. </p>

<p>We don't need to be blind or mindless lemmings. But we need to realize that our role is indeed unique and different than an Ohio State or UVA or ... just about any place else. While helicopter parenting is inappropriate and disserving of our youth in any scenario, it's downright counter productive in this one, imo.</p>

<p>Now let me ask ... if my thesis has merit, then what if any MO is appropriate forum for us as PARENTS (not merely severely interested citizens) to voice concerns, questions, etc.?</p>

<p>
[quote]
And beyond that, re: the SAs, as parents I believe we should be loyal to the process, no matter what we think. We are now part of this family, like it or otherwise, and I don't think the picture of "traitor" is out of place here. It's the same concept.

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<p>LOL!!!!!!!!!</p>

<p>My son is in the Navy I am not. Am I part of this "family" No. It was his choice and I support him. But I am most certainly not going to be told what I can and cannot do by the Navy, a list serve or CC.</p>

<p>I was raised to be very independent....a very good thing for todays youth too, the same way are raising our children. I do not follow my husband around like a puppy dog being seen on his arm when it comes to his career obligations nor will I do so for my son. Get it ,HIS career, not mine. Has it hurt his - absolutely not, will it hurt my son's - most likely not - and certainly has not so far. Even as the list serve has pointed out, Mids will not be held responsible for their parents, siblings, etc. actions. Their actions yes, mine NO!</p>

<p>Was I a Traitor - to whom may I ask? So I guess you think that all whistle blowing programs should be done away with. Squelch the Voice... Support the Powers to be at all cost... Kinds of sounds like what we are fighting against! Certainly does not sound like a "free people" living in a Democracy, or Republic. </p>

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And I pity their poor Mid once they're meddling mommies are outted. Perhaps especially if he/she's from Texas? Or his mama is. I'll bet there are some interesting conversations around that Thanksgiving table ... Maybe not.

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Now I am really laughing as you think you know it all!!!! You are so far off the mark it is hilarious. Do you really think that a screen name is going to say anything about a person? Why do we all have screen names W..P..? As far as Items I have posted - you figure out who I am... LOL! </p>

<p>
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Don't you hate "anonymous" quotes? Real courage there.

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So W..P. You obviously don't have much courage either if you didn't use your real name here. Ok your going to come back with this is public - well hate to tell you so is the list serve - anyone can get on it. ANYONE - including the Mids, reporters etc.</p>

<p>As far as the Thanksgiving Table - how many kids will not be able to go home to the West coast as the published time changed this week from 22:00 to 18:00. Hard to travel back on Sunday from the West coast and make it into the area by 2pm (4 hrs before liberty ends) And everyone who bought tickets this summer based on previous published schedules is going to pay through the nose to change their flight - if they even can anymore. As far as out T-Day table - Mid may be there, may not be there, there may be a table, there may not be a table, we may be all together, we may not be all together - we may celebrate it, we may not, You my friend have no idea! But if you get your joys out of trying to figure me out, have at it.</p>

<p>Well one thing I think we DO know. You didn't cook the turkey.</p>

<p>Fact: Issues reported Days 1 through 8.
Fact: Issues "more than random".
Fact: Reported up COC by several companies. Confirmed. As early as day 2.
Fact: one slice of pizza served for meal.
Fact: one chicken tender strip served for meal.
Fact: 7 slices of meat delivered to serve 12 at table.
Fact: Mold on food.
Fact: Lack of seating to accomodate entire brigade.
Fact: Midshipmen turned away from eating hall.
Fact: Drydock closed to midshipmen as alternate food choice.
Fact: Dant confirmed: average meal prep 22,000+ now in excess of 66,000 weekly.
Fact: Dant cites "change in policy" as cause.
Fact: Dant states she is "taking a wait and see approach" and is "sitting on corrective action" on day 8.
Fact: New vendor will start 9/3</p>

<p>Think what you will.</p>

<p>Personally, I am tired of all the insults, inuendos, "suck it up", "whinning," "meddling helo mom," "kick them out of gate 1" attitudes. Ditto for the "we're at war so that makes this ok-don't you know there are soilders fighting........." reminders. We get reminded every evening when the names of the fallen are announced. No doubt while you are eating your dinners- with servings for all-at your dinner table. Oh, and would you like seconds??? And how many of the "little piggies" are raiding the frig for a "late night snack with David Letterman?" And you sit there, with bellies full, pointing fingers at STUDENTS who are trying to go about the business of their EDUCATION. </p>

<p>So tell me this-
what would be your response if it were your "other child" at St. Elsewhere who was not getting their "meals as paid for?" "Go elsewhere" perhaps. On day 2: "report it." day 3: "what is going on." day 4-5-6-7-8.....you expect us to sit here while you tell us you would not be OUTRAGED at best, if not DEMANDING YOU GET A REFUND of your food dollars!!!</p>

<p>I can tell you what you would not tell your St. Elsewhere kid-
you would not tell them to "suck it up."
you would not tell them about the "soilders in Iraq eating MREs."
you would not tell them to "tell their helo meddling moms to shut the heck up."
nor would you tell them "if you can't suck it up then pack your bags and get your whinny a$$ out the gate."</p>

<p>ENOUGH.</p>

<p>Maybe YOU should "suck it up" and call a spade a spade.
Maybe YOU should tell us how this "happened to you" "back when."
I bet it didn't, because as sure as my hair is turning gray, we would have heard about it already and how you gallently "sucked it up."
And that, my folks, says it all.</p>

<p>I don't care who reported it nor who fixed it.
I am glad it is getting fixed.
I am sorry it was not fixed sooner, or better yet, avoided entirely.
Opportunity missed. </p>

<p>Carpe diem.</p>

<p>ps.... for those midshipmen and midshipwomen, parents, and anyone else who tried to address this up the COC- thank you. I am sorry your issues went unheeded for as long as they did.
To those who chose to take it further - thankyou. I am sorry the issues went unheeded for as long as they did that it necessitated this measure.</p>

<p>To the rest of those who "sucked it up"...
enjoy the fruits of those who had the courage to "step up."</p>

<p>A call to action! Together we might not be able to save 'em all, but we can save a few Mids ... Let's send all our spare change to navy2010 (and her assistant ex-patriate Texan) at ... </p>

<p>Our Biafran Midshipmen Fund
c/o Chick & Ruths Deli</p>

<p>Lighten up Frances. The sky is not falling. Gotta ask ... did you mean "unheaded" or was Mr. Freud @ work? :eek:</p>

<p>Hulka the Unheaded :confused:</p>

<p>Exactly what are you accusing me of?</p>

<p>BTW - never met USNA2010, never PM'd her - but respect her greatly, as I respect everyone on this board for having the guts to stand up for what they believe because that my friend is what makes America great. </p>

<p>I respect the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. I may not agree with your position but I certainly respect your right to post it as I would respect your right if you went to the press with your opinion, or wrote your elected officials. </p>

<p>I have the highest respect for the young men and women serving - where ever they are. I have respect for the office of the President - doesn't mean I have to like him or vote for him, like his party or vote for his party. I respect the Naval Academy and their mission statement - that certainly does not mean that I have to buy into everything they do to execute a "new" mission statement.</p>

<p>Just because my views do not coincide with yours does not make me any more or less of a patriot than you.</p>