<p>For the past I don't know how many years, I've wanted to go to West Point, and recently I've begun to consider the Naval Academy. Yesterday I thought to myself, the maximum amount of combat a cadet can experience is six months worth. This will only happen if the cadet chooses to spend his/her second, third, and fourth summer serving in active army units. Then the cadet graduates and is commissioned as a second lieutenant. I feel that this amount of combat experience is highly insufficient considering that a regular soldier in the army must serve a minimum of nine years before he/she can attain the rank of sergeant major which is under second lieutenant. I know that cadets receive great training at West Point but I've heard and believe that nothing can substitute for the real thing. I don't mean to offend anyone but how can you lead soldiers if you have little to no combat experience. It just doesn't make sense to me. I guess the same thing applies to the Naval Academy, but I'm not entirely sure how things are run there. These thoughts have made me consider enlisting before attending West Point if I get in. A lot of this information was taken from the internet, which I know is not entirely trustworthy, so correct me if I'm wrong on something. I have made this thread hoping that I'm missing something, so if you know what it is, please tell me.</p>
<p>Cadets (West Point or ROTC) are not sent into combat at all. They may do some training with Army units but they do not get deployed into a combat situation.</p>
<p>So how do you think enlisted men get combat experience? They don’t wait until they make SGT before sending them to Iraq. They learn how to lead by following orders first. That is how cadets learn too.</p>
<p>Actually, once cadets graduate, they’ve only completed Basic Officer Leadership Course I (BOLC I). There’s still BOLC II and BOLC III for far more advanced training that is branch specific, especially when dealing with a combat arms branch.</p>
<p>I personally also believe that being prior service/enlist experience can be a huge asset in becoming a good Officer.</p>
<p>swimboy - I agree that having served as an enlisted soldier is an asset. I don’t think it should be a requirement though.</p>
<p>The original post refers to combat experience. Maybe the poster meant experience with soldier skills or leadership skills. If so, then cadets learn soldiering skills in CBT (Beast) the first summer, and during CFT (Buckner) the second summer. During the fourth summer they have more field training, I don’t know what it is called but it is a continuation of things they learned in CFT. Cadets also learn while doing the other summer requirements such as CTLT, Airborne, Air Assault, etc. Cadets have summer requirements they must do and these include assignments or schools in the regular Army. They don’t have a choice to not do these requirements.</p>
<p>As far as leadership, they learn to follow first as plebes, and then are given increasing leadership roles as the other three years pass. As a yearling they are responsible for a plebe or two. Third and fourth summers they do leadership details as cadre for CBT and CFT. They are also assigned leadership duties during the academic year. Cows are usually given NCO duties and Firsties are given officer duties. </p>
<p>After graduation they go to BOLCII and branch training. If they branch infantry they also go to Ranger school.</p>
<p>To me, this sounds like enough training to be a lieutenant. No they don’t have the on the job experience that a SGT has, but a smart officer will take advice and learn from his NCOs.</p>
<p>You do not need combat experience to be a good leader. West Point teaches the basics of leadership; the Army systematically is failing in teaching that to our junior NCOs currently due to shortened NCOES and multiple deployments. You will get yours in combat, and you will sink or swim. West Point will give the the tools the succeed and make the difficult decisions under pressure; spending time in combat further hones those skills, but the basics come from two things 1. natural leadership ability and presence and 2. leadership training.</p>
<p>By combat experience I mean being in a real combat situation. I’m just worried that a new second lieutenant, not having any prior real experience, will mess up. This will put him in trouble, and more importantly all the men under his command, in danger. By the way I just remembered reading that females are only allowed into supportive roles. Is this still true today?</p>
<p>Allen,
Are you suggesting that all academy, ROTC, and OCS grads should be sent to combat as privates before they can be an officer? Or that all officer candidates should be enlisted and serve in combat before they can be an officer? What happens in times of peace? They can’t commission anybody because there is no combat to experience?</p>
<p>
This is possible. It is also possible to have an officer with experience (Captain, Major, etc) mess up and put his men in danger. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Females can not branch infantry or armor. They are limited within some of the other combat arms branches such as Field Artillery, Air Defense Artillery, Aviation, and Engineers.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Out of curiosity, how are they limited in aviation?</p>
<p>“Aviation: Army aviators fly one of four types of helicopters: AH64 Apaches (Attack), OH58D Kiowa Warrior (Reconnaissance), UH60 Blackhawk (Assault), and CH47D Chinook (Heavy Lift). Females may fly all four aircraft and be assigned to any unit at any level. Females are restricted from operational flying positions in the 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment.”
From: <a href=“http://www.usma.edu/dmi/pdf/femalesincombatarms.pdf[/url]”>http://www.usma.edu/dmi/pdf/femalesincombatarms.pdf</a></p>
<p>Not much of a limitation but it is still there.</p>
<p>WAMom68 I am not suggesting that. Obviously theres no real combat during peacetime as far as us civilians know. I’m merely voicing a concern of mine that I thought was really serious and hoping to find a good answer. And yes anyone can mess up but don’t you think that its more likely the first time?</p>
<p>I don’t know that there is a good answer. Maybe it is more likely for a 2LT to mess up, I don’t know the stats. All I know is that all officers are human and mistakes will be made. The purpose of training is to cut down on mistakes but there are no guarantees.</p>
<p>Maybe Screaming Eagle has a better answer for you since he is currently serving.</p>
<p>is that the enlisted Sargeants train the 2LT. If the 2LT is smart, he learns quickly how things work. I am not sure how much I like the system. If an enlisted man is a better leader, why should a commisioned officer move ahead of him? It strikes me as an antiquated system designed to award the sons of the wealthy back in the day. If you are a great engineer with specific skills, fine. But in infantry, why does a West Pointer have an advantage? My son starts at WP this summer, and he could care less about my thoughts.</p>
<p>If it didn’t work, the Army would have scrapped West Point a long time ago…
By the way, females are already fighting getting wounded, and dying in combat situations. They are also getting decorated for bravery under fire in both Iraq and Afganistan. West Point has lost several women graduates in the War on Terror in both theatres of operation. </p>
<p>Commissioned officers in most cases receive those commissions after 4 years of college (either ROTC or West Point)–that is probably the single biggest factor that separates them from enlisted personnel. It would be a dumb officer indeed that did not recognize and take advantage of the expertise of their NCO’s but make no mistake–for better or worse the officer is in charge. Ike, MacArthur, Patton, Bradley, Powell, etc were all green 2nd Lt’s at one time—none had prior combat experience (I don’t think Ike ever saw combat) and all were most likely mentored at some point by their NCO’s—the system works. The one with the most “experience” many times is not the better "leader’. This isn’t just true in the military–it applies to civilian life as well. Young manager trainees fresh out of college vs the 20 year assembly line worker–in the short term the worker knows more about the company and its operation than the young manager does—but its the young manager that will become the CEO.</p>
<p>Allen.331, If you are concerned that you won’t have enough training to be an effective Platoon Leader as a 2nd LT - don’t be.<br>
West Point and the Army will train you to lead your troops whether in combat or in a support role. If you go to West Point that training will begin immediately in Beast and continue for 47 months. After graduation you will get even more training.</p>
<p>The relationship between Senior Enlisted and Junior Officer is most crucial in any military organization. Unless the JO is prior enlisted, the Senior NCO will have years of seasoned experience and expertise. JO has a lot of book learning, some experience through summer training but is essentially reporting “green”.</p>
<p>Newly graduated JO’s, regardless of service or commissioning source, need to make it a priority to establish and nurture a relationship with their Senior NCOs. Approach them with respect. Don’t try to be a know-it-all. Learn from them.</p>
<p>Conversely, any Senior NCOs worth their salt will realize that training and breaking-in JOs is part of their job description. </p>
<p>Hopefully, the above is actively taught as part of the Leadership curriculum in our Service Academies today.</p>
<p>The military is made of all types of leaders from many different backgrounds and experiences. It’s similar to how the “melting pot” ideal works; people bringing different experiences to the officer corps makes for a more well-rounded military. While other methods may be more efficient, it does not necessarily mean that they would be more effective. I think that it would be great if everyone could have some kind of combat or even just prior service experience, but it may be that the Corps is better for the diversity that it has.</p>
<p>“The Tactical Non-Commissioned Officer is the senior NCO and an essential developer of leaders for a company of cadets at the United States Military Academy. Daily duties and scope; First Sergeant for cadet company, United States Corps of Cadets; responsible for the health, welfare, and discipline of 125 future officers; counsels, trains, and develops cadet Corporals and Sergeants on all aspects of Army operations from company to brigade level; teaches and supervises Drill and Ceremony; monitors and conducts military training and the inspection of company areas and formations; assists in the overall development of the cadets to assume the position of Platoon Leader upon graduation from the United States Military Academy. He or she will work in a Tactical team with a Captain or Major to establish a proper command climate within their respective companies; also assist each cadet in balancing and integrating the requirements of physical, military, academic and moral-ethical programs. They will exemplify the high standards that are expected of the NCO Corps. The Tactical NCO is the first senior NCO that will have great influence over cadets…”</p>
<p>[USMA</a> TAC NCOs](<a href=“http://www.usma.army.mil/adjutantgeneral/TACNCO.htm]USMA”>http://www.usma.army.mil/adjutantgeneral/TACNCO.htm)</p>
<p>There will be no difference between the midshipmen at the Naval Academy and the Cadets at West Point when it comes to combat experience. Neither are allowed to serve in combat zones while at either Academy. </p>
<p>There is a reason that 2LTs continue to exist–it’s because the system works. Everyone has to start somewhere. One thing to remember is that 2LTs begin with a college degree while enlisted men do not (though there are many enlisted men and women who have bachelor’s, masters, and even PhD’s–this is by no means a judgment on enlisted men’s intelligence). Because of this, there is a base level of education and morality that 2LTs are expected to bring to the fight. As Ann said, the relationship between the new 2LT and NCO are vital. However, they do not “train” the new 2LT. The fact of the matter is that the 2LT is in charge. While green and not knowing as much as the NCOs, a 2LT brings new ideas, eagerness, and leadership to a platoon.</p>
<p>Every year hundreds of 2LTs go almost straight from OBC to Iraq or Afghanistan. They meet up with their units who have been deployed for some time already, and they take over a platoon. NO ONE begins their career with combat experience, even the most senior NCO. Everyone has to start somewhere, and it is only with time and experience that one will see combat.</p>
<p>Hmmm. Thanks for all the answers everybody. You all brought up some plausible points.</p>
<p>The bottom line is that officers and NCOs play two very different roles within any unit.</p>
<p>For example, a platoon’s PSG (senior enlisted) is responsible for maintaining standards and discipline within that unit, while, ideally, a 2LT should not have to bother with that kind of an issue – his or her job is more focused on resource allocation and training prep.</p>
<p>Therefore, it makes sense that the training for enlisted men and women differs from that for commissioned officers. You wouldn’t expect the CEO of a factory and the floor foreman to have the same educational background, would you?</p>