<p>Canuckguy,
Cynical posts like yours make me wonder why you even care what goes on in the private elites. You make them sound like such terrible places, why would anyone like you ever want to attend?</p>
<p>Obviously, your opinion is not shared by the tens of thousands of highly-qualifed applicants to these schools, and especially to the ones who fork out $50k for the privilege of being there. Presumably, these students see something extremely valuable in the current experience being offered by these schools.</p>
<p>Everybody knows this. The facts are undeniable. If there was no Affirmative Action, 80% of the spots held by minorities would be given to Asians. Schools would be over 60% Asian. This is seen an undesirable, so they discriminate against Asians.</p>
<p>Jian Li filed a lawsuit against Princeton to end this, but was unsuccessful. </p>
<p>It is inherently wrong to discriminate based on something that cannot be changed. Affirmative Action is as racist as David Duke. It puts unqualified people in positions that they do not deserve, and ruins the lives of many hard working Asians.</p>
<p>The application should not ask for your ethnicity. All people are equal.</p>
<p>That’s quite deniable, and it doesn’t appear to be a fact anywhere. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Jian Li did not file a lawsuit against anyone. He did request a federal Department of Education Office of Civil Rights inquiry, which as of the time of the most recent news report I have seen </p>
<p>"For me, how much time do “we” want to spend bemoaning the fact that 1500 African American kids might get a “boost”, and can maybe even afford to take advantage of it. To me, perhaps aside from applying for an elite university, it seems like a pretty good thing to be Asian. Being born Asian, at least in the US, and without trying to decide who deserves credit or fault, seems to increase your odds of “success” drmatically. "</p>
<p>shrinkrap: I will not comment on the insensitive comment about advantages of being born Asian. Others have done that job. But let me ask you, what happens if only half of the 1,500 get admitted without any crutches?</p>
<p>I have not waded through the minutae of all the “reports.” I really don’t think it’s necessary. It is obvious that there is frank racial discrimination in college admissions, certainly among elite institutions, not sure about how far it extends. There are statistical contortions and apologies and “explanations” for what goes on - it is very unconvincing. Racial discrimination is racial discrimination. Either we decide as a society to put end to it or we go on with the nonsense. And please no lectures about how SATs and gpa really don’t capture the x-factor. Please.</p>
<p>The social attributes play a big role in this perceived “unfairness”. Sorry to say but I know a lot of Indian/Chinese kids who are practically obsessed with grades/school and are driven by very controlling parents. Of course there are outliers but I am speaking of the majority of students. For those Asians who think they got screwed, take a look at your essays and maybe you’ll understand why.</p>
<p>I agree with Ratnik, though I am Asian myself.</p>
<p>I go to a school in which admissions is based on a single test, no other considerations…it is 62% Asian.</p>
<p>The majority of my fellow Asians in my school are mommy-controlled, grade-obsessed, boring kids. I’m not trying to be mean…but they all have the exact same views on things, same interests, same unwillingness to explore certain areas they perceive as non-Asian.</p>
<p>better for me, I am Asian, but my parents don’t care about my grades, I freak over grades because I care, but I always always learn to move on, and I am involved in activities (in and out of school) that most of my Asian schoolmates won’t venture into because their mommies won’t approve.</p>
<p>I’m not generalizing…but this really is the case at my school.</p>
<p>I don’t get it. Ratnik’s point makes sense if and only if you assume that students should be in a competition against others of their own ethnicity. And that just doesn’t make sense to me; why should an asian student be compared against other asian students, rather than the entire population applying?</p>
<p>I attend a math/science magnet school that admits primarily (though not exclusively) on statistical measures of academic ability. The school is 20% Asian, in the Mid-Atlantic but without a large Asian community in the area.</p>
<p>“Mommy-controlled, grade-obsessed, boring kids” do exist, but the majority of my Asian friends and acquaintances are extremely involved in ECs. I believe many Asian families do understand these days that college admissions is more than numbers. Perhaps others’ experience in different communities belies this belief.</p>
<p>Also please refer to the Duke mismatch study, which indicates that Asian applicants to Duke scored higher on the whole than white or URM applicants on subjective factors like essays, ECs, recommendations, etc.</p>
<p>I agree that he shouldn’t. Not everyone does, though; decades ago at Harvard, competition was strictly “intra-docket” such that students from Stuyvesant and Bronx Science wouldn’t hopelessly outnumber students from Andover and Exeter ([Source](<a href=“Getting In | The New Yorker”>Getting In | The New Yorker)</a>).</p>
<p>Whether they still do that is another question.</p>
<p>Are you suggesting that being involved in EC’s suggests you aren’t grade/school obsessed? Padding EC’s with things you aren’t really passionate about is common among all races, and in no way indicates you as something different than a prestige-hunting grade grubber. </p>
<p>@ amarkov: they are compared with other students. I think you are overestimating the value admissions officers put in getting a couple irrelevant questions right on the SAT. I didn’t read this whole thread, but it seems to me that your complaint stems from the fact that asian representation is still around 20% or so at these top schools, and not more. Maybe this number is at 20% because of character flaws and those types of students retaking 790 subject tests, not any basis of racial discrimination. Maybe their essays were not profound. I would assume the former before I assume any conspiracy to keep asians out of becoming the majority at elite schools.</p>
<p>“Also please refer to the Duke mismatch study,”</p>
<p>There was one very lengthy report or thesis presented by Shelby Sheldon or Sheldon Shelby (I think he is a prof @ Berkeley). Don’t have link to it, but it talked about ability mismatch long before it was fashionable.</p>
<p>If these subjective factors can be quantified then I would agree that discrimination against Asians can be proven to, and may exist. But I admit that I am skeptical. I am in the camp that believes that certain experiences in life cannot be reduced to a number (just like the “wrong fit” feeling that comes with actually visiting a campus that looked so perfect on paper).</p>
<p>Based purely on anecdotal experience, I have been in the company of high-scoring students who are (regardless of race) frankly, boring. I am very involved in my kids h.s. There have been valedictorians (there are 10 or so each year) in my kids’ h.s. classes, about whom I have remarked, “I have never heard of that kid before!” Of course, that does not mean that the particular kid did not do anything significant other than grades/scores, but s/he was obviously unable to make his/her accomplishments known to the general community. I can understand why elite colleges might not be interested in this type of applicant. They may be looking for graduates who will make an impact on the world, and some kids, no matter how brilliant on paper, just do not show that promise. Of course, colleges often guess wrong, too.</p>
<p>So you are unwilling to accept that asian students have a disadvantage in college admissions, but you are perfectly willing to accept that large numbers of asian students have character flaws which disqualify them from top universities?</p>
<p>“Maybe this number is at 20% because of character flaws and those types of students retaking 790 subject tests, not any basis of racial discrimination. Maybe their essays were not profound. I would assume the former before I assume any conspiracy to keep asians out of becoming the majority at elite schools.”</p>
<p>I think this bears repeating. If this is true, the schools to which this applies are not discriminating against Asians to the benefit of whites. Rather, they are discriminating against both Asians and whites in favor of URMs. In essence, they aren’t discriminating against anybody; rather, they are discriminating in favor of certain minorities. You can like it or dislike it, but it’s an entirely different thing from a policy designed to limit the number of Asians.</p>
<p>If you’re going to use race as a measure of college accpetance, why don’t you use it in other aspects of life? </p>
<p>Take the NFL (National Football League). The amount of asians is SEVERELY lower than the amount of African-Americans (both in percentage, and in raw number). Take any professional sport (MLB, NFL, NHL, NBA, NASCAR) and you’ll find the number of asians is significantly lower. Here all the arguments in favor of affirmative action still hold. More diversity in sports. Allows asians to have “their own” role models in sports, etc. </p>
<p>Even take the non-professional level where athletes are not paid. Let’s use affirmative action on the high school football team, or perhaps even college recruiting processes. The black running back from Texas might be a hell of a lot better than the Indian from Maryland, but that would hurt the diversity on the football team. We wouldn’t be giving Indians a broad oppurtunity to advance themselves in sports, right?</p>
<p>I want someone is in favor of affirmative action, to explain why these policies should not be used in every fascet of competitive life.</p>