<p>Stumbled across this article that is fairly old but thought it pertinent to discussions on this forum: TheDartmouth.com</a> | Do prep schools help or hurt college applicants?</p>
<p>it’s a wash out - as it in some ways helps and some ways hurts. What I dont’ understand is they always say “matching students to the right colleges, rather than the most prestigious ones.” I believe a student fits in a group of schools not just a particular one. For example, if he fits in smaller LAC there are prestigious ones like Amherst/Williams and there are ones that are not prestigious. Can you say a student’s best fit is a 3rd tier school instead of a top tier with smilar characteristics except it’s – more prestigious? Sounds to me like an excuse.</p>
<p>My answer to your last question is the obvious one - academic capabilities. Sure, it’d be nice if the school had a great swim team and a medium-size student body - but if the academic work is beyond what the student is capable of, that particular college may not be “the one.” I don’t know if that was what you were asking, but those are my thoughts.</p>
<p>Moreover, the term “prestige” is a little ambiguous in that it seems to have different meanings to different people. I think that part of what most people think of as prestige comes with the age of an institution. That’s why, when comparing Harvard and Stanford, for example, one might conjecture that Harvard is the more prestigious school, when in reality there is little to distinguish the two academically or athletically. And Stanford is not an Ivy, although, in my opinion, it’s an Ivy in all but name. You know what I’m getting at?</p>
<p>As for the actual topic of this thread, I suppose it’s really a double-edged sword. On one hand, the preparation for college work and college life that prep school provides give prep school students a real advantage over the general population. On the other hand, however, there’s the obvious fact that in most cases far more people in a group of prep students would apply to “better” universities than in other schools, making for greater competition. No college nowadays wants to be known as the one that takes 50 students from a particular school each year - while there may be plenty of deserving and strong applicants in a prep school, some will inevitably be denied admission to some of their choices when they would have been accepted had they applied from the local public high school.</p>
<p>I looked into this question extensively before my daughter attended Andover, including having “inside” discussions with then current Harvard admissions committee members. I believe after much thought, research and discussion with knowledgeable people, that if you are a high achieving, motivated student you have a better chance of admission to HYP, etc. if you stay in your local public high school. But having said that, if I had to choose between Harvard without Andover, and Andover without Harvard, I would personally choose Andover without Harvard. Not everyone agrees. To me, the academic preparation, and the entire experience of Andover, is worth more than Harvard in terms of building the basic foundation of an educated person. To others, the prestige and lifelong “door opening” ability of a Harvard degree are more valuable. But I think it is very clear that a kid who would be a top 5% student at his/her local public school, but be in anything other than the top quartile of a top prep school, has a better chance at HYP from the public HS. It’s just the flavor of the era we’re in. The days of AEDHS sending 50 kids to Harvard every year, as they did when I was a student in the 60s, are over. It’s just not fashionable among elite college admissions folk.</p>
<p>But isn’t reaching the top 5% in a public school with 2000+ students just as hard as getting to the top quartile of a top prep school? Besides, except a rare few the best public schools may have 5% ivy enrollment but HYP is mostly an “accident” that you can’t count on to have each year. That said, I don’t think you’d have significant advantage by attending top BS either. Bottom line is that high achieving and super smart kids do well wherever, it’s the “middle tier” that is tricker - depending on the individual the best place could be the public school, BS or a smaller private day school.</p>
<p>A lot depends on what’s availalable locally. The public school in my home town hasn’t sent any kids to top schools in the last decade. The kids who got into good schools had to take remedial classes. The students from a top private school at the same college are probably taking advanced classes and take advantage of extracurricular opportunities What these top private schools are very good at is placing the middle students in top colleges and giving them the skills to succeed there.</p>
<p>Yes, it really depends on your local public. Our local hs (which is considered to be very good by our state standards) sends maybe one kid to an Ivy every year. My son’s friend is one of the top 5 in the class, yet he takes no AP’s and hardly any honors courses (too much work is his excuse). Everything is weighted (1.25 for “college prep” courses…pretty much everything, 1.5 for honors and AP’s). There is a “National Honor Society” for everything including child care and woodworking. It makes the kids feel good about themselves, but it does give a false sense of achievement, as well. The parents think their kids are doing amazing things and then are taken aback when half the class doesn’t even go to college.</p>
<p>sugerkim is on the money regarding the middle students. These are the regular B (with some C’s) students with decent ec’s, that get into top colleges (but not HYPetc),out of BS or prestigious day schools because 1. counselors at the schools have great working relationships with adcoms 2. colleges know these kids know how to study, write research papers, etc. Had these kids gone to local public schools, they wouldnt stand a chance at these colleges.</p>
<p>I still look at it as an advantage. I feel like if you’re a motivated passionate person and take full advantage of top prep schools you can get into your college of choice. Maybe my opinion will change later on, but I doubt someone in the 3rd quartile at Deerfield or any other prep school can just walk into their local public school and be Valedictorian as the article was suggesting. What kind of areas are we talking about here? My local public school really isn’t that bad.</p>
<p>Keylyme- do we live in the same town? 
One of my kids just finished his first year at a large New England prep. He just figured from his friends out that his “Spanish 1 Regular” class was much, much harder than the “Spanish 3 Honors” class that he was recommended for in public school! At his school covered multiple verb tenses, and he can even have a nice, small conversation. I’m guessing that the hometown kids won’t figure out that they didn’t have a great foreign language experience until they get to college and take placement tests (or heaven forbid, the SAT II!)</p>
<p>Question 1: Does everyone agree that when it comes to HYP etc., top tier boarding schools hurt rather than help, compared with decent public high schools?
Question 2: Public scchools vary a lot in so many ways. How about less selective bs, local private day schools? are you better off in these schools again in terms of going for HYP?</p>
<p>1: No way. Even if you don’t get into HYP, bs will prepare you immensely. “honors” classes at the local public highschool are a joke, and the kids that DO go to college are going to the University of Alberta. not exactly reaching for the stars. A lot of it is the environment. At bs i’m sure there are hardly any apathetic kids that just don’t give a s*** about school.</p>
<p>2: probably not, though it definitely depends on the oublic school. A public school in, say, Newtown CT will be waaaaaay better than an inner city NOLA highschool.</p>
<p>I don’t know the answer to admission probabilities, BUT assuming prep school does hurt your chances, prep school is SO WORTH IT! (or at least Exeter is)! My friends and I feel so ready for college because of Exeter. The people you are surrounded by, the faculty who care, and all of the passion and drive around you will push you harder and harder. In my opinion, where you go for undergraduate matters a lot, but who you become is even more important. If a prep school influences you to be more passionate, innovative, and driven - which Exeter has done for me - then it will matter more than your GPA and the prestige of your college. (And if you’re looking for prestige, there is still grad school).</p>
<p>That being said, I don’t think prep school is right for everyone.</p>
<p>(I don’t come on the prep school forum anymore so if anyone has questions about Exeter, PM me! I’m a recent graduate)</p>
<p>Prep school, as the name implies, prepares one for a rigorous college program. In addition, there are often mandatory study halls, hence time management skills, plenty of emulative role models for character development, immersion with a general population of motivated, driven students, and usually outstanding college counseling offices dedicated to COLLEGE counseling, not preparing schedules and almost solely ascertaining graduation requirements, as many high school guidance counselors workload focuses on. In addition, prep school college counselors often have personal relationships with admissions officers, and high expectations for their BS, unlike many guidance counselors who guide you to apply to several state schools, a match or safety and maybe a reach if that is your personal goal. BS counselors job is to get you into the best school they can, not only for your benefit, but for the bragging rights on their college matriculation lists. Public schools usually rave about their graduation rates and attendance at 2 and 4 year colleges only.</p>
<p>Hence, prep school will usually enhance your admissions chances and provide a well prepared, more positive resume than the average public school, provided that the BS student has taken advantage of the aforementioned BS strengths and met with success in the opportunities and challenges that the college prep environment of BS provides.</p>
<p>Overall, the prep school candidate has advantages over the public school candidate in the admssions office, and especially during the freshman year in college where they will usually be better prepared for the rigorous work load in the college setting.</p>
<p>Going to a top boarding school probably means you’ll do extremely well in college… but not necessarily in the college admissions process. Some reaches are universal, and unlikelies still exist at Andover, Exeter, Deerfield, etc. Don’t choose a school as a means to an end; when you’re choosing a boarding school, make sure that school IS the end.</p>
<p>"“matching students to the right colleges, rather than the most prestigious ones.”</p>
<p>“Best fit” is the mantra used by Prep School college counseling offices as an excuse to parents having paid $40,000 a year to send a highly qualified student to a Prep, only to have them get into a 3rd teir college. It’s spin.</p>
<p>While the college counseling offices have extensive relations with admissions offices, they keep those relations by acting as gatekeepers, and championing only a very select group of students. All other need not apply, the College Counseling office will not back them. Yes, a few top students will get multiple offers from top schools. However those 95% SSAT students with excellent stats who don’t fit a particular mold will be steered to “right fit” schools and never have a chance. </p>
<p>On the upside - any student with a rigorous prep school preparation will do well in whatever college they attend. They are used to the work load.</p>
<p>Because almost all kids in top BS’s are top kids, on what criteria do the “gatekeepers” cull the “third tier” students, with grades and SAT’s comparable to top third students, from the others and sell them the “right fit” pottage? EC’s? “Team players”? Old family ties? Haircuts?</p>
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<p>Get good grades, be outgoing, and suck up to the right people. I’ve been doing it since 6th grade</p>
<p>Toadstool, exactly what “mold” does one need to conform to to be admitted to an university that represents upwards of 70 nationalities, people from all levels of income, and everyone from world class athletes to recreational players? I’m curious.</p>
<p>Where are these 95th percentile SSAT students that are being guided to lesser, even 3rd tier, universities? While the SSAT is not a perfect predictor of BS performance by any means, the implication of Toadstool’s allegation is that there are students with correspondingly good BS performance that are being cheated. I’m curious which schools allegedly behave that way.</p>
<p>Let’s look at Andover. With an average SSAT in the 93rd percentile, the 95th percentile would probably be around the median (note: because there is a limited tail to the high side the median should be higher than the average - e.g. if you take one at the 83rd percentile that implies two at the 98th percentile). This year 34% of the class wil matriculate at Ivy+SM and nearly half are going to top 20 universities or LACs. Virtually the entire school (well over 90%) will attend either a top 75 university or LAC. So the third tier school concern doesn’t exist there.</p>
<p>On the other hand, let’s look at another fine school, NMH. The average SSAT is 67% according to BS Review, so a 95th percentile student would clearly be in the upper echelon of the student body. I find it hard to believe that the counseling office there is really selling short members of the top 5-10% of it’s class by guiding them to decidedly inferior schools. Does Toadstool believe that a school he’s raved about has been cheating its students in the end? I doubt it. NMH sends a fair number of students to very high quality institutions while some go to lesser schools, but top students to third tier colleges???</p>
<p>So if not Andover or NMH where are the cheated students - or was the original allegation a bit of melodrama? Notwithstanding the $40K and the self-selection that skews SSAT results relative to the American populace, are we really seeing exactly what one might expect - top prospects (using “prospect” rather than “student” to acknowledge other factors that play into college admission) going to top schools, mid-tier prospects going to mid-tier schools, and lesser prospects going to lesser schools? By comparison, in a typical year our local public school, which is pretty good, generally sends the top 5-10% or so to top 50 schools, and the rest attend a range of schools from mid-tier privates or flagship state U for the good students on down to regional publics or community colleges for the bottom quartile. </p>
<p>BTW: It’s funny that one of the previous posters picked the relatively distant suburb of Newtown, CT as an example of a town with better public schools (Why? It’s a nice town that’s transitioned well over the last 30 years from rural America to 21st century suburbia, but it’s not exactly the Gold Coast). Andover has an '09 grad from there and he’ll be attending MIT next year. As an isolated data point it doesn’t prove anything, of course, but clearly he didn’t suffer too much by going to boarding school.</p>