<p>That is an excellent post, Padre13! I think it’s a good approach to zoom in on some specific schools and starting from there try to find some common trends, instead of talking about boarding schools in general. It’s hard to make meaningful generalization without looking into the hard facts.</p>
<p>It doesn’t all add up to me. Even at Andover, there are 50% of these top students (many of whom had over 95% SSATs) that are bottom half of their class. By definition, not everyone is going to be top of the class–and no one needs to worry about how those kids will fare with college–we all know the answer there. I assume a typical middle half of the class will do better than the middle-ranked kid at a PS, but how does guidance counselors at BS help or not help the middle of the class get into their choice of college?</p>
<p>I don’t know how much the other college counselors help the middle of the class, but I can tell you where they go to college. As can be easily deduced from the stats I posted above many go to the fabled top tier (Ivy+SM), but a large percentage of the mid-range go to other outstanding schools. For example, Johns Hopkins and NYU are popular non-Ivy destinations. Nearly 60% of PA applicants to JHU are accepted and approximately 50% to NYU - both approximately 2x the overall acceptance rates. Based on Naviance data and the profile on the school website, the average GPA, SAT and ACT for those admitted students are within a few % plus or minus of the PA average (SAT/ACT) or median (GPA). I could check stats for Vanderbilt, Northwestern, WashU, Boston College, Middlebury, Wesleyan, etc. and the results would be similar.</p>
<p>checkwriter
You made a very interesting comment.
I would think that Harvard without Andover might be better. True your academic processes are developed in the younger years. But, so are your social skills. I would rather have my kids interact with kids of all social economic backgrounds then just be academically advanced.</p>
<p>Two. Your chances of a good grad school are much enhanced after Harvard than after Andover - but perhaps equally good at Great State University without Andover.</p>
<p>Three. But, if your local PHS is terrible, then Harvard with Andover is by far the best way to go.</p>
<p>But your assumption is that an IVY is the best school to go to. One of the great stories I have heard is of a student from “an elite PS” getting into Juliard and being counseled by the PS not to go as it hurt their “statistics” if she did not go to Yale.</p>
<p>I’m not sure I get the point. Let’s suppose a student’s goal in life is to get to Harvard. I know it could be debated, but let’s also accept the supposition that it’s easier to get to Harvard out of PS rather than Andover. Now I’ll throw in another hypothesis that is almost certainly true, that unless a student really has cured cancer or can send in a check for a new nanotechnology building along with the application fee, there are no sure things when it comes to projecting 14 year olds into Harvard admits. So, I ask the question, “If a student is admitted to Andover should they turn it down because of some marginal increase in the likelihood of being accepted to Harvard 4 years down the line?”</p>
<p>I think any kid that can reasonably conclude that they are a very high probability admit to Harvard or any top school will also be at least a high probability admit from Andover. Furthermore, since 20% of this year’s class will attend HYPSM (even ignoring the rest of the Ivies and a large number of other great schools), the downside for that truly tremendous candidate is extraordinarily small. There’s no way one that really can benefit from an Andover (or Exeter, Deerfield, Groton, etc.) education should turn down the opportunity because of a small increase in the probability they’ll have to study a little downriver or in CT, CA or NJ.</p>
<p>I still like the idea of top prep, then if you don’t make it into ivy, blow the competition away at less competitive college and have a leg up on grad school. What do you guys think about this?</p>
<p>“If a student is admitted to Andover should they turn it down because of some marginal increase in the likelihood of being accepted to Harvard 4 years down the line?”</p>
<p>I agree that it would make no sense, however, some people could decide that they’d not apply to Andover or another boarding school thinking it would only hurt their chances of getting into Harvard. That is a legitimate personal choice of course. What I don’t agree is the reasons Princess’Dad gave.</p>
<p>One, “interact with kids of all social economic backgrounds” doesn’t just happen in Harvard. It happens in many great schools. Believe it or not, it happens in a boarding school like Andover too.</p>
<p>Two, “Your chances of a good grad school are much enhanced after Harvard than after Andover” Really? Most boarding school graduates say they may not be sure whether going to a boarding school really helped them in college admission, but they are sure that it preapred them very well for college. Doing really well in a non-harvard or even non-ivy college WILL help you get into a good grad school.</p>
<p>Three, your public school has to be “terrible” so you can make up your mind to attend a prestigious boarding school like Andover? You made it sound like something so bad that you have no choice but suck up. Wow —</p>
<p>No Drama is correct. Andover is far more socioeconomically and racially diverse than our local public school (which is overwhelmingly white, middle class). 11% of the students come from such economically disadvantaged backgrounds that they receive not only full tuition but also books, laptop, spending money, etc. Another 30% are on partial FA going to school alongside some kids whose parents are incredibly wealthy or household names. I don’t know the racial and ethnic stats, but looking at the directory they have a distribution that more closely represents American society (and WW society) than any of the better public schools in our area. I suspect that many of the other top boarding schools (at least those with sizeable endowments that can afford economic diversity) have similar student demographics to PA. </p>
<p>It’s interesting that as schools like Harvard, Yale, et al have changed to become more diverse so have their traditional feeder schools like Andover, Exeter, Choate, et al. However, one consequence of that diversity is that they no longer look upon any school as a “feeder school” and admissions have become more competitive. There are almost no locks, so if you can get many of the benefits of an elite college earlier by attending a top prep and still have a great chance to get to your dream school (18 to Harvard and 14 to Yale from PA this year), it makes no sense to pass it up.</p>
<p>Edit: I don’t literally mean “it makes no sense” as individuals may have valid reasons, but on the whole the “My only concern is to optimize the potential for admission to Harvard” rationale will cheat more students out of the best combined secondary and collegiate experience than it will help.</p>
<p>Is Obama of the same social economic class as a young black male football jock with a C average in school. I don’t think so. The Andovers may have racially diverse, but not social economic. I don’t believe they have many garbage loader kids, etc. Neither does Harvard. But most PHS do. A child must learn to deal with people that are not academic equals. One of my PHS friends is an astronaut and retired CEO of a major airline, one a famous rock singer, one in prison for life – and I learned and gained from knowing each of them; in PS I probably only would have met one of them.</p>
<p>I went to PHS and aced Stanford and med school. One can learn studying habits anywhere. There are great advantages to PS - but there are also equal advantages to PHS. What PS has a marching band in the top 20 in the US? What about auto shop (yes I learned how to repair a car in my poor PHS)? Most PS have small dedicated counselors which make a big difference in getting into college.</p>
<p>I am not saying your PHS must be terrible. I am saying you have to look at what both have to offer. If you live in a place with poor PHS, then a PS becomes a necessity.</p>
<p>Lol how do you know the social economic class of a young black male football jock with a C average…</p>
<p>I suppose that’s one way to see it. Like everything else there are always different perspectives. In the end, boarding school students are a self selected group. The concerns you have raised are inconsequential to most of them and their parents when put in the context of the huge benifit they expect to get from a boarding school education. But I see where you are from. Unfortunately you are one of those parents who were “forced” to send their kids to boarding schools because of the “terrible” local public school system. To most, BS (or at least top tier BS) is not a “necessity”. It’s a previlege.</p>
<p>Princess’Dad, You should brush up on “the Andovers” before you make unqualified statements. Andover has a lot of kids that they specifically recruit from the lower socioeconomic spectrum. When one of the admissions officers was asked how much to budget for spending money the response was, “We give our full scholarship students $350” (or so, it was two years ago). In other words, they have programs that target kids from inner city and other economically disadvantaged areas whose families can’t afford to give them money to buy a pizza with their classmates, so funds are provided with their scholarship. Looking at the student directory there are some addresses for neighborhoods that are not where you’d live if your family had any disposable income. Those kids are definitely not living among those that “aced Stanford and med school” but they can go to Andover.</p>
<p>In my daughter’s small dorm (about a dozen kids including prefects) this year she had kids from several countries, races, ethnicities, religions and home addresses ranging from poor declining industrial cities to some of the country’s wealthiest suburbs. Just that sample would absolutely match up in diversity with any public school in the country.</p>
<p>I’m the son of two public school teachers. No one in my extended family had ever attended a private primary school, much less a boarding secondary school. I was not at all convinced that I wanted my daughter to attend such a school because my memory of prep grads from college (30 years ago) was that they were rich and generally spoiled. Then I visited Andover and saw something that was completely different. Perhaps my memory was incorrect, or maybe there have been tremendous changes in 3 decades, but what I saw was a diverse group on many dimensions that I’d consider to be perhaps the friendliest and most cooperative assembly of teens I’ve ever met. They changed my perspective 180 degrees.</p>
<p>BTW: My daughter was on partial financial aid.</p>
<p>Re-reading my post above, I think I was a little excessive in saying the level of diversity would match any public school in the country as I know of some - particularly magnet schools drawing from both urban and suburban environments or, in the case of NYC, both wealthy and poor urban neigborhoods - that are incredibly diverse. However, I am confident that Andover is far more diverse than an overwhelming percentage of public high schools in this country.</p>
<p>I should add that one of my daughter’s motivations for asking to go to prep school was because her dream was to attend MIT. While our local high school gets a handful of Ivy or near Ivy (Chicago, WashU, et al) admissions every year, no one could remember the last time someone got into MIT. Whether she would have been admitted from here or not I cannot say, but she will be going there this fall. What I can say with certainty is that she wouldn’t have had some of the tremendous experiences that characterized her Andover years. Not only did they make her application far more compelling, but, more importantly, they gave her the confidence and skills to be a more successful student at any university (which was our goal in letting her go).</p>
<p>Padre
My D at PS had friends from China, Russia, Spain, inner city NYC; black, white etc. However, while of varied financial backgrounds they were all selected. Again Obama is not the same as a inner city black with a C grade average. How many at Andover have a mother with sibs with 7 different fathers. How many have a friend who wants to be an auto mechanic and not a neurosurgeon?</p>
<p>padre
Then it seems like Andover was the correct choice. Our PHS had a MIT for each of the past two years.</p>
<p>Princess’Dad, I see your point. Not meant to be argumentative, but I’m surprised you are sending your kid to a PS (a BS?) when you have a decent public school available. It sounds to me that diversity - especially social economic diversity is your top priority in secondary education, then why give up a public school where you can get to know figures that “have a mother with sibs with 7 different fathers” and still have a chance to go to top colleges like MIT?</p>
<p>Have 3 Ds. 2 go to PHS. #3 wanted to go and has decided after a year that the benefits of PHS are better.</p>
<p>Oldest on school dance team. Has Ds of neurosurgeon, lawyer, cop, garbage man, Nanny and unemployed on her team. She has 4.0 average with 2 APs in sophomore year. Colleagues have from A ave to C ave on team.</p>
<p>D at PS had friends who were Ds of Ambassador, ?Mafia, Transplant Surgeon, HS teacher, Successful Class Action Lawyer, Senator and “Rockafeller kin”.</p>
<p>Not knocking either PHS or PS. But don’t believe PSs are the Mecca either.</p>
<p>Well you’re the minority here then. If people don’t believe PS - especially the highly regarded prep boarding schools as that’s the subject of this forum - are significantly better than public high schools in general, they wouldn’t want to spend 40K+ and send their teen kids hundreds of miles away. It’s understandable that BS is not for everyone though. If the kid doesn’t like it and doesn’t feel belonging there then there’s nothing better to do than pulling out. Just to benifit from the social economic diversity of a public school in exchange of the finest education you can find in a top boarding school is hardly compelling - not to most people hanging around in this forum anyway.</p>
<p>Please pardon a minor interruption while I exhibit anal retentive tendencies, but the term “social economic diversity” gnaws at me. I’ve heard it used but it’s an awkward phrase that is not common in research. The appropriate term is “socioeconomic diversity.” Yes, it was an unnecessary interuption and is completely irrelevant to the validity of any arguments presented, but it made me feel better.</p>
<p>I also acknowledge Princess’Dad’s point. Contrary to his belief, Andover does enroll children of manual laborers and others lower on the socioeconomic spectrum, but he is also correct that it does not admit those without well-developed academic skills or interests (i.e. it may contain the sons or daughters of mechanics and C students but there probably aren’t any C students or future mechanics in each admitted class). </p>
<p>Out of curiosity, since you spoke of “inner city C students” and future mechanics along with what I presume to be suburban kids on a college prep path, what sort of public school do your kids attend (regional school, magnet school, regular suburban high school with cross-enrollment from a nearby city, etc.)? Since MIT enrolls fewer than 10 kids a year from the entire state of Tennessee (and the yield is very high), it must be an extremely well regarded secondary school. Outside of ECs, how much interaction is there between the future MIT students or your AP-track daughter and the inner city C student/vocational track kids you profiled?</p>
<p>Padre
It is the single HS in city; one of newsweek and US News top schools. And you are correct in socioeconomic. Excellent question as to interaction. Different classes, usually sit at different tables at lunch – but are in the same band, the same dance team, the same football team, etc. Again the Obama’ish Black from poor family at Andover is NOT the same as an inner city black male.</p>
<p>NoDrama
Minority perhaps. I just don’t agree that you need a PS for the “finest education”. But, I do agree with your “significantly better than the public high schools in general”. Many reasons for not liking a PS including not believing academics 50K better.</p>