<p>Ha, ha, talk about sour grapes before the meal is even served. Author seems incapable of living in the present moment, and recognizing all of the opportunities there at PEA. Living only for some future moment of glory. These are EXACTLY the kind of kids I didn’t want to spend another 4 years with at college. I know we talk about fit all the time, but I’d like to introduce a slightly altered concept: “feel”. This was totally apparent to me when I did college visits years ago. At some schools, all you heard was how the students there WANTED to be somewhere else, but here they were. One of the reasons College A made such a strong impression on me is that most of the students there said flat out, “Oh, don’t go to Ivy X, come here!” And it showed around the campus; people were bright (not just intellectually), enthusiastic, engaged, and happy. (The location didn’t hurt, either). I think this is especially valid for BS revisits: yes, they will try to put on their best face for you, but students in general aren’t as accomplished actors as admins. Go ahead and ask them if it was their top choice. Do they think it’s the BEST BS education/experience out there? Why? Who wants to spend a bunch of years with peers who can’t get over that they’re not some other place they’d rather be. THAT attitude is extremely infectious, as is the overachieving, target-based anxiety of kids like the Exonian article author above. It’s exhausting, and a huge disappointing waste.</p>
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<p>Really? I think the problem here is a lack of reality. If PS is the ostensibly easy route, wouldn’t PS students be uncompetitive when it came to standardized tests? Wouldn’t PS kids have to work twice as hard to educate themselves?These poor kids really think pretty highly of themselves and have no idea that there are other, equally intelligent people out there, that have achieved big things, and didn’t go to BS. This would be a BIG disadvantage when applying to college–out of touch with the real world.</p>
<p>I do not think it is fair for adults outside the PEA community to heap scorn upon a teenager for honestly reporting his feelings. Please respect his opinion, without personally attacking him.</p>
<p>This article should not have been posted in its entirety. If Phillips Exeter Academy wanted the Exonian to be freely available online, there wouldn’t be a subscriber wall.</p>
<p>Not a big deal. It’s just one student’s opinion on a certain issue, but I was surprised to see some adults react so <em>strongly</em> and read so much into it. The kid didn’t (and I don’t think they tried to) make a comprehensive and well crafted argument, and was simply expressing some disappointment about how CCO started the CC process. The point that an average student in Exeter isn’t and shouldn’t be the same as an average student in a public school is valid, because - hello, putting aside the rigor of Exeter, the school is very selective in admission in the first place. Now the author’s perceptions on whether an average student at E is indeed being treated the same as an average student from PS and whether they’d end up in the same “B-list colleges” are debetable, to say the least. </p>
<p>Adults, please be nice.</p>
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<p>Sorry, didn’t realize PEA had its own “community”. I also didn’t know that it was not OK to let a high school student know that their published opinion was quite naive. If a teenager can’t handle someone not agreeing with their opinion, they should probably keep it to themselves. Everyone it entitled to their “feelings” – but it is not helpful if adults shield these students from reality and instead let them believe that they are in some way “special” students that deserve special consideration in college admissions. </p>
<p>Why doesn’t this particular student understand that kids at PEA aren’t the only one’s working hard? Why haven’t these kids been instructed in what is going on outside of their small circle? Maybe this is the reason that many of the colleges are looking past the student’s impressive academic resumes (which I am sure are hands down quite good) and instead are looking for those students that are intelligent AND socially aware.</p>
<p>After months of reading the Exonian opinion page, reading the following week an opinion completely opposite of the previous week’s, hearing my kid on the phone saying, “Mom, you wouldn’t believe this crazy article in the Exonian this week!” I concur with D’Andrew and Periwinkle. These are high school kids learning to express their own individual opinions and voices. The intent of the opinion page, I think, is to stir discussion within the PEA community (not on CC, where we are, as Periwinkle points out, eavesdropping on a school-based conversation). The editorial page does not ever pretend to represent the views of the entire student body; the articles on the news page are much more balanced and researched.</p>
<p>And, hey, it’s the end of a long winter, a week from spring break, and the end of the term…cut them a little slack.</p>
<p>“heap scorn” is a bit strong. It’s a published opinion piece, and the opinion is not especially well developed. I assume there are still print copies of the Exonian distributed, as well; as such there can be no real expectation of privacy within a community of thousands. I think these were valid critiques of the position, and not of the person. The author certainly isn’t cutting CCO administrators (whose jobs likely depend to some extent on a placement rate deemed appropriate by deans, the head, and trustees) any slack. And this whole topic IS directly relevant to the original post, so why quash it?</p>
<p>Well, I think it’s not worth this much controversy because it is just one kid’s feelings which he didn’t post it here; and, as many have pointed out, it isn’t very well researched, so doesn’t really add to the original discussion. Better to focus on actual admission stats than one kid’s perception (in an entirely different context from this thread) to have a discussion of any substance.</p>
<p>It’s true that he doesn’t cut the CCO much slack–but this kind of critique of the adults in charge is not uncommon on the Exonian opinion page. Having edited a newspaper at a Catholic high school that censored every article that even whiffed of criticism of anyone in authority, I’m appreciative of the freedom of the press granted at Exeter (and, I suspect, most other prep schools). I suspect the faculty and staff–who know these kids in a way that we do not–are able to weather the storm just fine. </p>
<p>To me, the point is not that it is possible for others to read the article; it is whether it’s fair for adults to blast a teenager so fiercely for writing an opinion piece for a particular audience in a particular context of which we are not a part.</p>
<p>But other adults are part of that context. Logical inconsistency: you say you appreciate freedom of the press at Exeter, but he’s a kid and we shouldn’t read too much into his opinion? I don’t follow.</p>
<p>My last words: the piece reeks of an elitist attitude of entitlement. Of course not everyone at this school or others subscribes to it, and the author may also change his mind later, but this is precisely the kind of condescension others “outside” of the community often note as both narrow-minded and narcissistic. Moving on…</p>
<p>I regret bringing up/posting the article and owe some of you an apology. I’ll be more cautious from now on. Let’s move on for now. Enjoy the rest of the weekend, everyone. It’s nice in my neck of the woods. Hope it is in yours too.</p>
<p>I understand that the author is a teenager and as such, is lacking in life experience. That is the point! Why is a student at such a well established BS so lacking in life experience? Might this be a reason that otherwise intelligent BS students may just be considered “middle of the pack”?</p>
<p>When colleges claim they are looking for those students that “stand out from the others”, why isn’t anyone thinking that that may be in a social context? I haven’t seen a college website yet that claims they are only interested in their particular college community–they all claim to want socially conscious students that can add to the greater good of society.</p>
<p>The OP asked if prep schools help or hurt college chances. This is an example of how they can hurt.</p>
<p>Yeah, I think we get the point. Please let go.</p>
<p>Finally.</p>
<p>Have a great weekend!</p>
<p>Not to heap on, because I think the thread is dying for good reason but:</p>
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<li><p>The piece is copyright protected and shouldn’t have been published here without authorization. That’s why there is a firewall. That there are published copies is moot, since the same law applies. The author is not here to defend herself, nor was the article published with the intent of eliciting comments from those outside of the community.</p></li>
<li><p>BS or not, these are still kids. Smart kids. Elite trained kids. But still kids. One need only look at the often angst filled discussions on the board from some parents who grieve that their child didn’t get a HADES choice or discuss the decision to fund BS in terms of “return on investment.” On at least one thread we had to coach a young girl whose father insisted she double up on AP science and skip humanities so she could get into an IVY. I told her she’d die of exhaustion before she graduated from the workload.</p></li>
<li><p>The reality is that (most - not all) BS students are often better prepared than they would have been if they had stayed at home. Kids matriculating to IVY’s from PS’s often struggle initially to keep up with the load. At one point MIT (which is not an IVY) had a program to help some students get acclimated to rigor and catch up during the summer before freshman year. It’s also why the first semester is pass fail. To take off the stress of “not being the best” in a school where every incoming student was when measured against former peers.</p></li>
<li><p>The reality is that a BS kid is now part of a more competitive pool. Where as “joe schmoe” public school might get 1 kid into Harvard every decade, BS kids are matriculating annually and with regularity in bunches. But now instead of competing against thousands of public and local private school students, they’re competing against students from only dozens of schools most of whom entered with similar college goals.</p></li>
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<p>And just as no Boarding school wants an incoming class filled with students from a homogeneous background (all NE or CA kids, for instance), so to does it apply to colleges. What’s the point of diversity if all the students at Harvard come from Exeter or the ones at Princeton come from Lawrenceville?</p>
<p>The point she missed is to take the advice with a grain of salt. To recognize that nothing in life is guaranteed but she’ll be in a better position than most to navigate if she has a broad list. For some schools, she’ll be the person they’ll jump on first because they know she can handle the courses.</p>
<p>I remember my Exeter CC telling me to forgo MIT and Cornell - my top two choices - in favor of Ohio State, Ball State and Denizen - the latter two I’d never heard of. I ignored him and got into MIT (early) and Cornell with substantial aid. Cornell offered to up the ante and let me pick my dorm. If I had taken the CC’s advice I wouldn’t have even tried.</p>
<p>On the flip side they bristled that my sister chose dance in NY rather than college which would mess up their 100% matriculation score. So she applied (but didn’t enter) college to please them. </p>
<p>That’s the lesson - that while there are those who try to provide “reasonable” goals, they’re often motivated by stats and performance goals. We’re supposed to be smarter in guiding our children. The true stars follow their own path and take the lumps as they fall.</p>
<p>Still - we’re adults debating whether someone’s personal feelings are valid. She has every right to feel that way. That CC “honesty” should have come at application time, not after the child is enrolled.</p>
<p>Exeter, as does many BS spends a lot of time reinforcing that their students are the “best” especially during recruitment. They use the matriculation stats to their advantage (as evidenced to the many threads on CC that use them to justify their limited application choices). Parents are whipped into a false sense of security. Then the reality hits. No IVY is going to take students from a single school because it doesn’t allow them to diversify. </p>
<p>However if the list includes applying to EVERY Ivy and a few back-ups - and the grades are good - the choices are many.</p>
<p>God speed to those who follow their own counsel.</p>
<p>^^ exie - all totally valid points. However, as a parent, one does tend to consider college matriculation of a particular BS, given all other factors equal(fit, academic, size etc) when choosing between BS A and BS B. When we visit schools, and when we get brochures from schools, it is often pointed out to us that the ivy matriculation rate is such and such. Finally for the most part we part with not a small part of our income (no matter FP or FA) to send our kids to BS and for some its quite a hardship, undertaken in the wish to better one’s child’s education.
Yes, its totally natural to expect one’s BS to strive to help one’s kid to get into the best college possible.
For those of us who have gone through the college process, or going through one now, to hear the kind of things from this article is pretty distressing. And Andover is by far not the only school where the expectations are managed and lowered. The problem with college guidance at BS is that they must place all the graduating kids. So if they know that by advising x percent of the students to apply ED to a college where they have a pretty good chance of getting in, they can have majority of the outgoing class placed by break. Then they just have to deal with a much smaller population. Sometimes those Ed admissions are by far not the first choice of the student. Unfortunately the days of SoutherPrep’s experience are long gone. Schools control to a large extent where their students apply.<br>
So before we jump down on the student who wrote the article, we should walk in that students shoes.</p>
<p>The kids from the top HADES schools are for the most part the “elite”. One thing that the article did not get into was the fact the class ranking is an admissions factor, when you are in a class where more than one senior has already finished Calculus and has moved on to differential equations etc…, it become easy for someone who at a PS would have been in the top 2% to suddenly become a middle of the pack student 50%er. </p>
<p>Based on my experiences, I don’t feel that colleges really give these students a fair shake. But there are a lot of other factors in the admission process. Andovers implicated admission connection to Brown - in some cases school might not want to take too many students from one school even if they are exceptional. So if half of Andover decides to try for Brown, it is obvious only a few would get in as they strive for the demographic and geographic diversity (the Brown pipeline is a hypothetical).</p>
<p>Students should also think of the others that did not get their chance at Exeter or Andover etc. many kid who were just as qualified as they were got rejected by these same boarding schools. They have had an opportunity to study and compete with some of the “best and brightest” in the world. I remember hearing how for the first time my child was not just with a few like minded students, most everyone there came from the same background where they had few if any intellectual peers.</p>
<p>The article if anything rips the CC office, remember there is an “A team” and a “B team”. If you get the B team you may end up unhappy with their recommendations. Sounds like the author got the “B team”. If you are not happy then take that drive and innovation that got you into your BS and apply it. </p>
<p>In a few years when the student matures, they will find that the life skills that the gained are worth far more that the name they might have on their college degree. Leadership, loyalty to friend and teammates, are all part of their common life experience. Some times you fail at achieving what you want or believe you should get. The most important thing is that you (student) are happy.</p>
<p>By appreciating freedom of the press, I just meant that I appreciated that Exeter–unlike my old school-- lets kids moan and groan and protest authority–unreasonably at times–without censoring them. </p>
<p>The staff and teachers challenge them all the time to support what they say with evidence and to think through their arguments carefully, but they don’t shut them down or cast judgments on their character. They recognize that they’re not adults yet, that they’re still learning to think through and support their opinions. Harkness is all about patiently teaching that process–think of this article as the start of one of those conversations, not the end result. </p>
<p>I wonder sometimes whether the web isn’t a bit too equalizing–that is, without their physical presence, we expect teens to be more like us than we would if they were sitting in our living rooms, chatting and playing x box.</p>
<p>But yeah, also ready to move on…though I’ve got nothing good to say about the weather here…</p>
<p>A few thoughts…</p>
<p>It’s not just one student’s opinion, that’s why it has struck such a cord here. She’s touching on a nerve. Agree–all the elite BSs manage expectations from the get go, would you believe even before you get in? At one revisit day at a HADES school, the headmaster made it very clear to parents that should their child enroll, not everyone is going to an IVY if that was the goal.</p>
<p>I think we all get the argument that an elite college can’t fill all its seats from one school be it private or public and also that they want the brightest and the best from around the globe, as well as diversity and face it, yes, disadvantaged kids who show themselves well and yes, those who have exceptional musical, athletic and other talents. Admission officers at elite colleges may also see themselves as being able to give opportunity to someone who might not otherwise get the chance, so they are looking for the kid who shows promise without past full advantages.</p>
<p>But…her piece resonates with so many students and parents who want the BS to acknowlege that our kids who got in and enroll at these top flight academically rigorous schools, are at least in their freshman year at the top of the pack, along with those kids who didn’t get in, but had the same or better grades, scores and credentials.</p>
<p>It’s okay for the CC office to lower expectations, no one will be surprised that we all can’t go to Harvard, but they are doing it the wrong way. College Counseling should be started at the 9th grade level. They should be saying, Look…you were all chosen for some heck of a good stack of grades, recs, ECs and standardized test scores; and if you want to go to an elite college vs. the best fit–if that is your goal (and maybe it shouldn’t be, it isn’t for everyone!), now is not the time to rest on your laurels…don’t expect that now you have some kind of golden ticket that you slip into your college app that will get you in…You have to keep working, identify your strengths and talents with the help of your advisors and develop them!!!
Unlike some other communities, THIS community is rich in resources…seek them out.</p>
<p>When I was in medical school, from the very beginning, the Dean said to us, we will give you an opportunity to learn how to become doctors. We will not teach you how to be a doctor nor will we be responsible for teaching you how to pass any board exams. That is up to you. This is only an opportunity. Although the students all booed and hissed thinking their $100,000 education (now it’s $200,000)should guarntee them a license to practice after four years, most of us got it. HADES and GLADCHEMMS are opportunities, nothing else. No golden tickets here…Students, arm yourselves with a healthy dose of skepticism if you are led to believe or if you lead yourself to believe otherwise!!! </p>
<p>And so because the St. Paul’s thread (not putting down SPS) is also so fond of Latin sound bytes, Caveat Emptor…</p>
<p>Putting to the side the numbers (I’m no math/statistics wizard, but there are too many “top” boarding, private day, religious, and public schools for every one of these student to be admitted to an Ivy, let alone the standout, excellent kids at lower tier schools), I haven’t seen posters use the term so important on this board–fit. </p>
<p>IMO, fit is just as important for college as it is for high school. There are many excellent colleges and universities out there, each with their own flavor. Maybe I’m naive, but I don’t want my kiddos thinking anything other than an acceptance to an Ivy (or MIT, Stanford) is a consolation prize.</p>