<p>Agreed. While learning a musical instrument/music is edifying, it must come from the heart of the individual concerned, not forced upon him/her by parents or anyone else. </p>
<p>The latter is a great way to kill or at least dilute an individual’s interest in a given musical instrument/genre of music. Saw far too much of this among HS classmates with “Tigerish” parents…including many who weren’t Asian or immigrants…including tony upper-east siders. Those classmates’ later manifest disinterest or even hatred for a classical instrument/genre revealed how being forced into learning such music/instruments killed/weakened their passion for them. Sometimes, the level of hatred for the instruments was such I’d hesitate to leave them unsupervised in a room with such instruments as they may pull a Pete Townsend on them. </p>
<p>Am thankful my Asian immigrant parents thought the whole idea of forced musical instrument lessons was absurd. </p>
<p>Am now slowly trying to learn the electric guitar on my own initiative. Something I enjoy though I doubt my neighbors nor the local wildlife would agree as demonstrated by a raccoon’s reaction to my attempts to butcher a '50s rock song on a Fender type guitar.</p>
<p>Is there any evidence that Silicon Valley companies have a much greater percentage of people with “tiger parents” than in the general population?</p>
<p>Indeed, most of the people in such companies graduated from colleges or universities low enough on the prestige scale that “tiger parents” would berate them for bringing shame on the family for not being able to get into HYPSM. Some even started at community college before transferring to their four year schools.</p>
<p>Back when California public universities were much less expensive, to the point that it was realistic to “work one’s way through college” even if one had high income parents (i.e. no financial aid) who contributed nothing, they were also much less selective, as evidenced by graduation rates back then. Perhaps that is what you meant by “weeding”?</p>
<p>Seems like what he describes his parents doing is not “tiger parenting”, since he mentions setting him up to “not just pursue a traditional path that society set up but to follow your own and think about things in your own way”. “Tiger parenting”, at least the Amy Chua caricature version, involves setting a very rigid path for the kid (must play piano or violin, not allowed to play other instruments, etc.), rather than letting him do science experiments with a blender and various kitchen utensils.</p>
<p>Plus, they let him attend a state school instead of “tiger parent”-acceptable school (HYPSM).</p>
<p>RE Post #92…to describe Kumon as an after school tutoring center is not truly accurate. It is a Japanese model that focuses on subject drilling until a child is competent in an area of math or reading and then they move on. My son started in 4th grade, and went until 7th grade or so to help with his math. Instead of learning the four different ways to solve a multiplication problem as they were doing in his class, the Kumon program starts the children at a level where they are fully knowledgeable (which may be a year or two behind where they are in school), and reinforces the learning with a series of repetitive worksheets that drill math concepts (reading too, although we did not do that program as long). I will say that by 5th grade, my son was one of the very few in his class who could pass the timed math tests for the multiplication tables (and the others who could also did the Kumon program). And yes, it is seems to be predominately Asian students who go, although not us.</p>
<p>RE the Cal University Medalist…what is even more impressive about this young man is that in addition to his incredible success in science, he has earned a minor in creative writing! In my mind, this makes him more unique.</p>
<p>What are the other kids in the school learning for math if they cannot pass those tests by 5th grade (assuming you mean a table of single digit multiplied by single digit numbers)? Seems like this should be expected knowledge by 5th grade, without needing additional classes like Kumon.</p>
<p>Keep in mind that among some immigrant groups…including East/South Asians, Berkeley has practically the same prestige factor…and more if we’re talking certain fields like engineering/CS HYP are considered relative laggards in comparison…especially HY. </p>
<p>IME…Berkeley gets more respect from East Asians abroad than from Americans here at home.</p>
<p>This is the first time I hear about the Kumon program. But I’m not sure I’m liking it based on these bits of information. I despised the boring multiplication worksheets my kids were made to do in school. Was it because they were better at math than their peers? Were they smarter or it was something we did at home, both dad and mom being math majors? We taught them how to manipulate numbers before they started school. However, we never made them do worksheets. We taught problem solving and how to think in a mathematical way. Once you understand how things work, you don’t have to memorize as much. I still pause when I need to multiply 7 by 8, which didn’t prevent me from getting a PhD in an area heavy on math. I don’t know what is wrong with this country that so many people fear math. Is it because math is not taught early enough? The pace at school is so slow, anyone can get bored. We gave up on school math very quickly and taught our kids after school.
Btw, I’m not Asian, even though English is not my first language.</p>
<p>Sorry if I didn’t make it clear, but my larger point was that what some “tiger parents” may consider to be elite schools may be more expansive beyond HYPSMC or even different. </p>
<p>The latter was especially the case with some Catholic “tiger parents” of neighbor kids and HS classmates whose list was more like Notre Dame(Conservative Catholics), Georgetown(Liberal Catholics), or BC(Liberal Catholics).</p>
<p>I would not call the Kumon method ‘tutoring’. More like, learning by incredible amount of repetition, slow injection of new methods and techniques, and lots of self-learning. I’ve had two kids go to Kumon math from K thru 9th grade…</p>
<p>Kumon works well for some subjects (algebra) and fails miserably for some others (word problems, geometry) or when actual theory and background are required (trig).</p>
<p>Now that our second child is leaving home, I’m thinking more and more about the choices we made as parents. Were we always right? I’m sure we made errors, but it’s natural to try justifying our choices. As I am analyzing my parenting experience, I’m wondering how much I am a tiger mom. I suspect there has always been a tiger in me, and I’m glad my husband was able to tame my inclinations somewhat.
Most parents want best for their kids, but their understanding of best is very different, as is understanding of how to get to that best. Some parents think their kids should make all the choices themselves. When they make mistakes, that’s fine because they will learn from them. I have always thought and explained to my kids that it’s better to learn from someone else’s mistakes than from your own.
I’ve seen kids who would eat only macaroni and cheese. Only these 2 things on their diet for years and their parents didn’t seem to mind. They even seemed proud of it. My husband and I have been a different kind of parents: we would always offer a variety of food. If it was new, we would put a little on their plate and made sure they would try. If they hated it, we wouldn’t make them eat it again, but we wouldn’t stop trying to find food they would eat. And we always talked about importance of healthy and varied diet. Now they can eat basically anything, if it’s cooked reasonably well. I think we were right, but I recall some unpleasant minutes at the dinner table when we faced resistance. Was it tiger parenting?
At least I can say proudly that during vacations we didn’t make them do homework or practice music. If they brought a book with them, I could remind about it on the plane, but wouldn’t insist. But I had to ask our son frequently to put away his sheets he used to solve math problems while walking on Paris streets.
I have to stop my rambling because it’s getting very late here. It’s such an interesting topic, and I appreciate very much the insights I’m finding on this thread.</p>
<p>Just wanted to mention that tiger parenting doesn’t necessarily mean pushing perfectionism in life- it might just apply to single fields of a child’s life such as music or sports. And among the non-Asian population, especially the latter, where it can be especially cruel of parents to force or pressure their children into pursuing such physical and often painful training.</p>
<p>Haven’t you read most of the posts related to “tiger parents” in these forums? Many posters think all Asian parents are somehow tiger parents. Just ask Xiggi. There was a thread regarding the Chows from Hong Kong who unsuccessfully tried to get their kids into the Ivies through a paid consultant.They were labeled tiger parents though they are not from the US.
Asian-Americans make up half of the Bay Area’s technology work force. </p>
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<p>I don’t view all aspects of tiger parenting as being negative. Working hard and being financial independent is one of those goals. Many of these people are first generation college grads and to their parents, that’s success already.</p>
Whether you despise it or not, not able to do basic math in a reasonable time prevents someone from learning next level of math. D2 understood the concept of multiplication and division, and she was also taught every which method of how to do it, but she was confused and fearful of math because she couldn’t do it proficiently. In fourth grade, I watched her doing additions by using her toes to count because she ran out number of fingers. It was a disgrace. After 6 months of Kumon, she was able to master basic math and was a lot more relaxed in her algebra class. She was then able to grasp higher level math when she wasn’t afraid to be called out on not able to do simple multiplication and subtraction.</p>
<p>*What struck me in the Tiger Mom book was when she described how the whole family (I think including grandparents) was on a trip somewhere – perhaps Greece? – and they actually missed the sites that they flew all that distance to see because it was critical that the girls practice their piano pieces for a few hours – and by the time they were done the exhibits were closed. That one day, or two days, couldn’t have been skipped. For what? That’s so utterly pointless in the scheme of things. Talk about not seeing the forest for the trees.</p>
<p>There are plenty of things I’ve done wrong in my parenting, as we all have.*</p>
<p>Wow! </p>
<p>That kind of black or white rigid thinking is what gets people (parents, kids, bosses, MIL’s (lol)) into trouble. Imagine missing the sites because of some music practice schedule. Nutty! </p>
<p>Yes, we’ve all made plenty of parenting mistakes. I’d like a do-over for potty-training (totally flunked that!) and a host of other missteps. Hindsight is 20/20.</p>
<p>*But nothing was gained from the extra day or two of practice when the family could have been at the Parthenon enjoying the sights. It made no difference whatsoever. If it was a “sacrifice,” it was a pointless one. You’re right, everything in moderation. There’s nothing “in moderation” about making kids sit in a hotel room practicing the same unimportant piano piece that they practiced the other 364 days out of the year.
*</p>
<p>Agreed.</p>
<p>I think that people who get themselves bogged down with this kind of thinking somehow think that if an exception is made, then everything falls apart. They don’t give kids enough credit. Kids can understand the difference between “blowing off” practice on a “once in a lifetime” trip and “blowing off” practice to play Nintendo.</p>
<p>I agree completely with mom2collegekids post #117 and Pizzagirl’s earlier posts on the topic.</p>
<p>The concertmasters of the local high school orchestra tended to fall into two groups: those who went to Julliard or majored in music at a university with a good music program, and then continued as musicians (several I know who did/are doing post-graduate work in music); and those who slid their violins under their beds and did not take them with them, when they left for college. The latter might return to music at some point–it’s unclear. There was no way for an orchestra audience member to predict in advance which would be which.</p>
<p>As a family, we have visited Italy many times, like some other places we have traveled to, so if we were to miss a site during one trip, my feeling is we could always go back again. There were few times when we decided to go on trips in spring, also happened to be right before a major recital for our kids. We had a choice of not going or had the kids bring their pointe shoes so they could stay in shape for the recital. Our family had to do a lot to work around our kids’ dance schedule. I would imagine other families had to do the same if they had athletes in their families.</p>
<p>oldfort,
I’m not trying to berate Kumon. And I totally agree with you that “not able to do basic math in a reasonable time prevents someone from learning next level of math.” What I’m puzzled with is that why healthy, normal 4th graders would be so afraid of math and would use fingers and toes to help with additions. Something is very wrong with this country’s educational system if 4th graders can’t do additions and multiplications easily. Where I grew up, most kids could add by 1st grade and multiply by 2nd grade. We learned order of operations in 3rd grade. Yet, we were not drilled like kids in Asian countries. Fortunately, I realized that mathematics curriculum is very inadequate here long time ago, and started teaching my kids math at home when they were very young. You can teach math to a one year old through play. As a mathematics major, I always understood importance of teaching math early. However, most parents in this country are not prepared for this. I’m glad Kumon helps some kids like your daughter.</p>