Distance runners enjoy release of endorphins & “runner’s high”.
Well, I get the math when it comes to figuring out the non-drinkers but I never said S19 wouldn’t go to a party where there’s alcohol. He’s just not into the heavy drinking. I don’t think 75 percent of any school is heavy drinkers. Or I certainly hope not.
Frequent, not necessarily heavy, drinking exists at many schools.
My D played rugby at a college with a party reputation and went to the parties, generally both men’s and women’s teams together, despite her not drinking. Rugby players probably drink the most of any athlete. They were still all friends despite the difference.
She did tend to leave when things were getting real sloppy.
@homerdog Now this sounds like a school with a student drinking problem:
https://www.thestate.com/news/local/education/article220233790.html
@Corinthian Whoa!
HI @homerdog As you know a few of the schools on your son’s list are also on my D’s. A few things we have learned:
-At many of the LACs students really only go out/party on Thurs (sometimes), Fri and Sat. At a number of larger schools, one can always find people to go out any night of the week. Some students truly party 5-7 nights per week at some of these schools (not LACs)
-Most LACs offer lots of programming options on the weekend nites, but some are not well attended. It seems the schools do struggle to find consistent alternatives to parties
-Hard liquor is definitely more of a problem than beer, especially for women who on average weigh less and choose hard alcohol because it has fewer calories. Hard liquor is seemingly more highly correlated with sexual violence/rape, based on what we have heard (and some data suggests that as well).
-Interesting (and scary) data from a recent WashU survey (a school not known as a ‘party’ school, note they did not necessarily implicate drinking in all of this behavior): http://www.studlife.com/news/2018/10/29/wpa-survey-finds-widespread-sexual-violence-across-wu-fraternities/?utm_source=MadMimi&utm_medium=email&utm_content=Student+Life+Email+Edition+%2810%2F29%2F2018%29%3A+WPA+survey%3B+Pittsburgh+shooting%3B+Tarana+Burke+speaks&utm_campaign=20181029_m147967860_Student+Life+Email+Edition+%2810%2F29%2F2018%29%3A+WPA+survey%3B+Pittsburgh+shooting%3B+Tarana+Burke+speaks&utm_term=WPA+survey+finds+widespread+sexual+violence+across+WU+fraternities
-At LACs, we have heard it’s true that it’s easy to go to parties and not partake or just have one drink, or reject a joint being passed around, etc. We have heard students are generally very accepting of each others’ behaviors, with a ‘you do you’ mindset. However, this can be a double edge sword, as some might not tell those who have had too much to drink to cut back or stop, or that their boorish behavior is inappropriate.
-IME Library test does not work, as many students don’t go out until 10/11p, even on Fri/Sat nites. Sure there may be students in the library later than that, but they aren’t even taking advantage of campus activities beyond parties.
-Student newspaper articles are some of the best ways to learn about alcohol/party issues. Clery report will not show alcohol and drug hospitalizations, just infractions and arrests. Sometimes the campus police reports (usually available online) break out alcohol hospitalizations.
Sometimes, student and local newspapers have articles about alcohol-related issues. For example:
Davidson:
http://www.davidsonian.com/campus-police-investigates-suspicions-of-drink-tampering/
https://www.wsoctv.com/news/local/davidson-college-students-hospitalized-for-being-overly-intoxicated/519788340
Dartmouth:
http://www.thedartmouth.com/article/2018/05/substance-abuse-and-the-big-green
I might consider whether there is enough to do at the school besides party. Does the Rec Center do weekend camping/hiking trips? What else is going on at campus on the weekends? For clubs, are they clubs in name only or clubs that are active with a lot of enthusiastic participants? Intramural sports? Is the town big enough to offer much in the way of entertainment or organizations to join, or part-time jobs? It sort of depends what you want.
I would also take overnights with a grain of salt. Kids are not always on their best behavior or putting the school in the best light.
@homerdog Also have a son who is a varsity athlete, and doesn’t drink or do drugs. He ended up in large university in Canada where drinking is legal at 18, and pot use also. Somewhat ironic. He’s had a great time so far, and (maybe)because his team has players as old as 27(some with kids), there is a pretty mature attitude towards it all.
He went to large public HS, so he was already making choices about substance use early on. It is not uncommon for alcohol and drugs to be found at parties here from the age of 14 on.
I do think that it is important to find out if there is a drinking/drug culture in the sport your son is playing in. I don't know of any highly ranked LAC where alcohol and drug use dominates the campus, though.
@57special Yeah. It’s so hard to know the nuances of the drinking culture. Like I’ve said, we will wait to see where the chips fall and then have him revisit. No need for me to get all uppity about Middlebury (or any of the schools on his list) if he’s not getting in.
@homerdog My D is a sophomore at Hamilton and her experience has been that while there are certainly lots of kids who drink and smoke pot, etc. on the regular, there are also lots of kids who don’t or rarely partake. What you experience will really depend on the particular group of kids you come across, I think, and what is “normal” for them.
My D has been in sub free housing the whole time she’s been there and she reports that there are more kids who request sub-free housing than there are designated sub free dorms/houses which made the sophomore housing lottery a bit tense going in (she wound up being extremely happy with her housing situation this year thanks to a friend with a low number, fortunately!) She’s busy all the time with activities that have nothing to do with partying - clubs, games, hiking/climbing, etc. I think for the kids who feel like there’s “nothing else to do” but drink at a school like that, well I’m not sure it would really matter where they were, because it’s all about mindset.
One thing to keep in mind about “substance-free” housing is that substance-free doesn’t necessarily equate to substance-user-free housing.
Yes, often substance-free housing is the choice of the parent (or in the case of a young friend of mine, court ordered). It doesn’t mean the students are substance-free out of the dorm room.
@homerdog, I feel for you and your S. I know you spent a lot of time coming up with the list. Starting with the positive – it’s great the OV helped your S think about the social environment he thinks he’d like in college. It clearly allowed him to see a side of the school that he didn’t when he visited during the day. This is good!
With that said, I would start by asking if he really got the right read on the school at the OV. Is it possible that his hosts were boasting about their exploits and partying, thinking it made them sound cool and mature (although they need only have asked this crowd on CC if it was a good tactic!) Or are they are part of a wilder group of students on campus? My sense is that bragging about drunken exploits, especially among frosh, can be common in that “I’m initiated” way. But many of those kids exaggerate their exploits or talk about the same one (note the singular) over and over. I also think that sometimes kids who are a bit on the outside of this see it differently and exaggerate it as well. Is it possible that his hosts were not so experienced with the party scene, yet saw it as bigger and more threatening than it was? (Thinking of a current poster who equates his decision to not drinking with having no friends.)
It’s true that an OV host has a disproportionate impact on the experience. When DS was applying to schools, another poster and I were comparing notes on a school where both our kids were being recruited by the same team. Hers was offered weed by his host (and was very turned off.) Mine did not have this experience and came away with a bit of different feel. So maybe your S just was paired with a host who would not be his best bud if he were a student there. It is also true that doing the OV as part of the accepted student events often offers a lot more activities and a chance to connect with a lot of different students so MAY be a little better.
With that said, as noted, at all campuses, there is drug and alcohol use, and athletes are a part of that. Even world-class athletes in grueling sports partake of recreational drugs. One need look no further than Michael Phelps and Ryan Lochte to see evidence of that. And very smart kids who are studying a lot also blow off steam. Intense kids often find intense outlets and many take pride in this. And when visiting kids are put with team members by a coach, the coach may have no idea who that kid is off the field. (On my college team, many of the best athletes were socially the most risk-taking. I can’t imagine that the coaches knew some of the more hair-raising details!)
So some of the questions that he might want to ask:
How much sub-free housing is there and who lives there? At many schools known for their partying, there is A LOT of sub-free housing – way more than you’d think. The kids there can go out and have a beer if they want, but it’s not happening where they live and they can go to their dorm to avoid it. If the description of the kids who live there, however, is not one that sounds appealing to him, he may want to pay attention to that because it may reflect the opinion of students who do not partake of substances period.
What does other special housing look like? Most campuses have housing for students who want to live with others for some purpose, and they create their own communities on campus. This can be a bit of a window into some of the other “types” who are there.
Do most of the kids on my team hang out together? If so, what do they do? Since XC is a fall sport, his team will be his initial “family” on campus. If they generally eat dinner after practice together, that’s great. If they live together – which commonly happens at LACs – he can ask what they do when they hang out. They may watch sports, play music, game, just hang. Or they may drink. He can determine if it’s just beer or hard alcohol and whether many seem to opt out. Or maybe they may all have different friend groups outside their sport.
What do the kids on my team do that ISN’T XC? If kids seem to be involved in other activities, that would signal to me that there are a lot of opportunities to find things and people that don’t have to do with alcohol. Kids may have jobs on campus, do theater, go hiking on the weekends, volunteer in town, etc. The more chances there are to meet kids who like to do what you do, the more chances you’ll have to connect on levels that do not involve alcohol.
What do I pick up when I read the school newspaper? Sure, most of it’ll have a slant –the slant of a kid who’s there and motivated enough to write about it. But students may also respond in letters to the editor, and frankly some of this can be revealing. I recall reading at one school, “Why can’t hook-ups at least say hello?” At another, complaints about how all the sports teams lived together in one dorm (and several letters responding that the lottery set-up was the cause.) And yet at another, how there were tons of clubs that did nothing. And at another how the school’s idea to have monthly dances had been a flop. This can be helpful in providing a glimpse into how students see their community and interact with each other.
What are the school’s policies on alcohol and specifically, what is the school’s involvement in serving it? Many schools prohibit hard alcohol but not beer. Some serve beer to students of age on campus at a pub (a venue that may have live music). Some offer it at parties (realizing that this is preferable to having students leave campus to drink.) A school that has a pub where beer is served and entertainment is offered may allow students to drink a beer while they listen, dance, or visit with friends or drink a soda while they listen, dance, or visit with friends. It may be helpful to look for things where there is an option to do an activity with or without alcohol. You can go listen to a visiting stand-up comedian or watch a movie stoned, drunk, or straight. But you’re all doing the same thing.
And of himself, who do I want to be in college? This one is to me a big one. A friend’s kid, who was not one of the “popular kids” in high school, was determined to be “someone” in college (slightly bigger school with big Greek and sports scene). And from what my friend reports, her kid is going to frat parties, doing shots before going out, making sure that there are invitations to the “right” parties on campus, and feeling like success is within grasp. For that kid, fitting into the dominant culture, and frankly, doing the dominant culture in a big way, was important. I’d ask your S to think about what a good week or so would like to him and then figure out whether this is achievable at the various schools. I think that the majority of kids at those rural LACs (and pretty much everywhere) do use some kind of substance (alcohol being the main one) some of the time and they use it on campus. I do not think that the majority are getting black-out drunk on a weekly basis but perhaps I’m wrong. If your S could see a slate of activities that work for him, he may not be as far afield as he might think. The revisits for accepted students would give him a second look and a chance to ask the questions that matter. But at a rural LAC, the dominant culture concept is important because of size and isolation. If you don’t like what’s offered at a bigger school, the minority is big, and at a city school, you might be able to build a bit of a life away from school. With those on your list, that IS the community – if you don’t like your neighborhood, there’s nowhere to move to.
Of the schools that you are looking at, I suspect that Carleton might be the best fit on this front based solely on the kids I know who have attended these schools. But you only need one good friend group to be happy!
Another parent of D3 athlete whose kid did not really do overnights – being in season in the fall meant kid had his own competitions and could not stay over because he had to get back to school to compete. We realized the upside was that kid was not basing his perceptions of schools on seemingly random, and ultimately, not predictive, experiences with parties. At that time in high school, my kid swore off polluting his body with alcohol etc. and drew some strong negative conclusions about one school where the team partied on a Wed night after a bad loss on the field. He couldn’t fathom those choices at the time. Once he got on campus, he started to drink sometimes, more socially than to excess, and has learned to find the balance.
Team culture matters, so talking with current athletes about how they socialize is helpful. Finding out if the athletes in a particular sport tend to join the same fraternity can be useful information, or finding out how many athletes from the team are in greek life at all – for those schools such as Kenyon where there is greek life. Of course, that is a non-issue at places like Grinnell or Oberlin. Some teams, like swimming, cross country and T&F, seem to be more intense and strongly discourage any kind of alcohol etc. Beyond that, you want to know if there is room for students to feel comfortable with their own choices. Personally, I think that is information that a prospective student can glean from visits with the team without including an overnight.
@Mwfan1921 makes a good point about weeknight parties. At many LACs there are certainly weekend parties but only occasional Wednesday or Thursday night parties. But at some bigger schools it can be 4-5 nights per week.
Georgetown may be a school with a high achieving, smart student body that does not have a party rep. Downside is that a lot of the social life takes place off campus, so it can be a much slower community build.
@homerdog, I get what he’s looking for, a school where the dominant culture isn’t all about partying. I think he may find that at Hamilton or Bowdoin. While all of the northeast schools have some work hard, play hard culture (honestly, I think it comes down to academic pressure and weather), there will be students who don’t party.
I’d be wary of schools that regularly make top ten party school lists, though. While there will, of course, be students who don’t party, a kid who doesn’t may feel like an alien at those places.
My son’s host (a freshman) when he visited the LAC he now attends was a drinker with a lot of booze in his room. This was disturbing to my non-drinking, rule-following son. However, as a student there, he hasn’t found alcohol to be an issue (not that other students aren’t drinking, but it’s a place where people can do as they please). I can’t say the same for his sister; her school (much larger) has a pervasive and dangerous drinking culture.
@homerdog, my D was concerned about drinking culture as well when putting together her list but we also had to consider finances. We looked hard at schools that had sub-free dorms and things to do off campus, meaning she had to be within walking distance of a town. She really only wanted LACs (although her ED was Vandy and she considered Tufts) in the Northeast. From research we took Hamilton and a few others off the list…definately were not interested in a work hard/party hard school. Also took most schools with major greek life and too rural off the list.
She attended what then was a safety (not any more for her stats anyways) Skidmore, easy walk into town, great sub-free housing, and more artsy/creative than athletic, although she is none of the aforementioned…she is STEM. She found lots of friends, all of which partied a bit, some with weed and some with alcohol, but all with a good focus on their academics. She attended the parties with them and went downtown and is widely known as the DD you can count on.
She is a senior now and has started to drink. Still doesn’t like weed or tobacco use. Taking baby steps in her drinking and still understands how important academics are…geez, when the COA at a school is $70K+ I’d be pretty steamed if my kid was a 3.0 and partying hard (that is not the case but I digress). She found her tribe, not a t-totaler tribe, be others with a good sense of responsibility and focus. Have they made mistakes by drinking too much? One or two. But the rest of her friend group embraced and took care of them and expect the same in return. Hopefully if she miscalculates what she can handle, they will be there for her too. Its all about the friend group I think.