Duke vs. Berkeley?

College Search & Selection
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<p>With financial aid and etc, I bet they will be about the same price, which invalidates any "OMGZ U GUYZ Berkeley is SOOOO much cheaper!!!11" arguments.</p>

<p>They're both excellent schools. I would argue that Duke perhaps has a slightly better reputation? It's hard to beat a private school rep and Duke is riiiight below HYPS in terms of prestige. (Except for all that lacross/rape business.) At the same time, though, so is Berkeley, so making the choice based on which one is more prestigious is basically impossible, not to mention stupid.</p>

<p>You will have excellent professors and lots of opportunities as a graduate from either school.</p>

<p>These things considered, I'd say it's all about fit. East or west coast? Crazy liberal or leaning conservative? Big or small? Basketball or football? :) They are pretty different schools but equally wonderful, so think carefully about what you want, and go where you'll be happiest.</p>

62

<p>"Why don't you show us facts that actually mean something?"</p>

<p>KyleDavid - Sorry, I didn't realize any of the numerous sources and pieces of data I presented didn't mean anything.</p>

<p>Also, I obviously don't think Berekely is substandard. Don't pretend I said that. Its just not as good as Duke for undergrad. </p>

<p>But I guess in your line of thinking...every school is equal for undergrad! I mean, since SAT scores don't matter, nor do prestigious scholarships, or grad placement...well, since every quantitative measure of undergrad is irrelevant according to you, every undergrad is equal. </p>

<p>Duke's no better than Cal, Columbia's no better than Mich, Dartmouth is about the same as Rutgers, Penn and Penn State are academic equals...I guess we should all decide what college to go to based on weather, or which school has the best frats?</p>

<p>Also, I argue vehemently because I'm tired of state school trolls skewing peoples perceptions on which undergrads are the best...by saying Berkeley is no worse than Duke for undergrad by discounting all the evidence otherwise, you are shortchanging people who want real opinions with their future success in their best interest.</p>

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<p>"With financial aid and etc, I bet they will be about the same price, which invalidates any "OMGZ U GUYZ Berkeley is SOOOO much cheaper!!!11" arguments."</p>

<p>Just as a side note: many people state that financial aid will invariably make a university cheaper, but really, it's different for every person. So Duke may end up being more expensive in the end.</p>

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<p>

I'm not sure, but it's not unheard of. I suggest contacting your admissions officer once you're admitted.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.admissions.duke.edu/jump/thed/contact.asp%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.admissions.duke.edu/jump/thed/contact.asp&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>For me, personally, I'd choose Duke, only because I'm from the Bay Area, and want to get away from here for my college years. All the arguments people present here are plausible. Berkeley seems to have a more renowned faculty, while Duke students are more qualified.</p>

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<p>Keep in mind that even though Duke might be as cheap or cheaper than Berkeley, it could also be much more expensive. I think Duke is much better for undergrads but at the same time Berkeley is a good school...keep that in mind when you see your financial aid.</p>

67

<p>Yup, both are great schools, but the fifty-thousand $ question is which one you choose if knife at your neck? Assuming there is no significant financial advantage; you should go for duke if you plan on getting only AB/BS and have a job. I?d also say Berkeley is much preferred if you see yourself continuing for PhD degree and becoming a professors/researcher type. </p>

<p>Another side note: school environment is an important factor. Make sure you will be comfortable in either place.</p>

68

<p>Thoughtprocess,
I don't know how much reliance should be given to the number of NMS. Looking at the list, there are a number of schools that most people wouldn't assume to be schools with great academic reputations. For instance, Arizona State (156), Texas A&M (136), Florida (230) have numbers exceeding most elite schools, including Duke (117). </p>

<p>Trying to be unbiased, the raw stats of Duke and Cal seem to be near identical: The number of HS grads in the top 10% at Duke is 87% and 99% at Cal, admittance rate is 22% at Duke and 26% at Cal.</p>

<p>Also, I don't know how reliable that WSJ placement info is since it seems to change everyyear. I read somewhere on CC that the number of Dukies at HLS took a big hit this year. I'll try to find it and post it here.</p>

69

<p>thethoughtprocess,</p>

<p>How ironic that you think I did not understand your 2 major points and I/m puzzled how you have drawn such a conclusion. Actually, I did understand your points very clearly. On the contrary, I think it?s you who measurably failed to understand what I and some others here are trying to say. </p>

<p>Again, here are the points I?d like you to digest:</p>

<p>Number 1, both Berkeley and Duke belong to the same tier where Harvard, Stanford, MIT, UPenn, Chicago, Cornell, Virginia and the like belonged as well. Choosing between Berkeley and Duke is only a question and matter of PERSONAL preference and financial capacity. </p>

<p>Number 2, the information you provided were not hidden information. So long before you posted them here, I already knew about them. And for the record, I do not contest those figures. Sure they are important figures as they?re tools which help us understand the general student composition of each of the top schools in the US. The figures also showed us that ? in general ? Duke?s student body is slightly stronger than Berkeley?s. Again, I do not contest that. But that?s just what you have on you side for rooting for Duke ? the slightly stronger student body ? so far. Now, let?s go to a wider angle and include all criteria in choosing which of the two great schools would be better for the OP. </p>

<p>Let me start this by using a simple analogy. Let us think for awhile that Berkeley and Duke are both classic German cars. Let?s liken Duke to a BMW and Berkeley to a Mercedes Benz. The OP, coming here for an advice, is having a hard time choosing which car to buy, and his debating which car should fit him best. </p>

<p>He said he wants to take up premed. (Was it Biology?) Now, why won?t we assess both schools? Biology program? Do NOT give me the overall ranking of the university because I don?t think that would be much of a help to him either. </p>

<p>You suggested that he should buy a BMW (Duke). Your reason: it?s a better car because it?s made of a stronger and better materials than the materials used to make a Mercedes Benz. Then you ignored all the other criteria. </p>

<p>Basing on the information you provided, it appears you?re correct. But the information you provided encompasses all undergraduate majors, something that?s little use as basis for his decision. But even the data you presented can we actually see that the difference between Duke and Berkeley is NOT that big to seriously consider. A gap of a few points in SATs is not that major of and issue? and shouldn?t be. BUT then again, I would have to insist that we look at the BIO/premed programs of both schools and set aside other less important things temporarily. In other words, if you?re buying for a sports car, check the car?s speed and stuff. </p>

<p>If you?ll read again my previous posts, I already said Berkeley is expected to suffer in stats because it is a Public institution with a mandate to accommodate or prioritize its citizens. But look, despite its original mission, it did not suffer that much in quality, something that is expected from PUBLIC institutions. In fact, it continues to produce world-class graduates that fascinate the people all over the world. It continues to produce inventions that people in America and all over the world are now benefiting. Its faculty continues to receive accolades and recognitions in America and abroad. In fact, the Nobel Prize is highly associated with Berkeley (of course, that?s aside from Cambridge, Oxford, Harvard, MIT and Stanford). The books we currently use in schools are written by Berkeley scholars. The truth which you continue to ignore is, America owes its global prominence partly to Berkeley?s outputs. Many of today?s inventions are products of Berkeley?s discoveries. There are so much more good things to say about Berkeley but I won?t bore you. We can probably say the same thing for Harvard, MIT and Stanford. But can we really say the same thing for Duke? NO! And I?m sure a lot of people would agree with me. Berkeley has lots of rich history that?s hard to ignore that?s why it continues to be a huge magnate to elite students worldwide. Ask those OOS and international students why they insist on going to Berkeley despite the presence of equally good schools located right near where they are at a fraction of a cost. And take note, Berkeley is very, very tough on OOS and International applicants. You?ve got to have a very strong stat to get admitted. It?s also very expensive for them too because Berkeley does not offer any form of scholarship or provide discounts for OOS and International Students. </p>

<p>As to Berkeley being a weaker feeder school to top grad schools, there could be a lot of reasons why is that so. To begin with, there?s a RELATIVELY fewer qualified Berkeley grads, and I assume most of them started with weaker high school credentials. But that?s happening in all top schools, as evident on the data you provided. Even Harvard, MIT, Princeton, Stanford produce those kinds of people too. The more important thing to look at here is that, going to grad school is more of an individual effort. If you enter college with a mind set to get onto medicine proper, you work extra hard for that. If you have good undergrad stats, you will get into the school of your choice regardless which school did you graduate from.</p>

<p>To sum it up, Duke may have a slightly stronger student body than Berkeley, but that?s not a good and practical reason why you should turn down Berkeley?s offer, nor should be a reason to conclude that Duke is > than Berkeley. Berkeley is a great school with astounding global reputation. And if this sort of thing does not matter to the OP, then he can always consider it as a bunos. Nobody knows what holds for him in the future. Furthermore, Berkeley?s physical and biological science programs are slightly superior to most of its peer schools including Duke. And if you?re really set to go to medical school, that?s already a matter of individual effort and you can always get into top med school whichever school you came from if you have the right stats. You can get into the University of California San Francisco Medical School or Harvard Medical School even if your premed was acquired from a tier 3 school provided you have the right stat. How much more if your credential says you acquired it from BERKELEY! And lastly, the cost of attending Berkeley for the OP?s case is much lower than going to Duke. </p>

<p>On a personal note, Duke is a great school, no doubt. But I cannot say it?s greater than Berkeley. They?re just equal at best. But Berkeley?s great grad school reputation plus its unparallel global prominence makes Berkeley a more interesting school to go to. Personally, I sure won?t pick Duke there if I have an offer from Berkeley. I will only entertain a trade off if it were Harvard or MIT.</p>

<p>Good luck to the OP in choosing a school.</p>

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<p>*"Wow pateta...all that, and Duke's undergrads are still completely superior to those that attend Cal...go figure</p>

<p>I think this discussion has come down to people who acknowledge the facts, and people who for some reason think Berkeley is a great undergrad (which it is, but not compared to any legit top 10 school)"*</p>

<p>There shouldn?t have such thing as best OVERALL undergrad school. That's quite bizarre and utterly funny. Rate the school's program, not the school in general. We?re in college now, not high school. Grow up kid!</p>

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<p>
[quote]
For instance, Arizona State (156), Texas A&M (136), Florida (230) have numbers exceeding most elite schools, including Duke (117).

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Hold on there for a second, Smart Guy.</p>

<p>First, let's take a look at those numbers for a moment (official NMS Annual report 2005):
<a href="http://www.nationalmerit.org/05_annual%20report.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.nationalmerit.org/05_annual%20report.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Go to page 26 on the report (the PDF reader will read p.28) and look up ASU. You will notice three things:
- 1) the number of "scholarships" under the Merit Scholars column: 156
- 2) and then a second number in parentheses (136)
- 3) and then you'll notice an asterisk * next to ASU's 156</p>

<p>Read that asterisk (below) carefully: "an asterisk indicates that Merit Scholars whose scholarships are sponsored by the institution included". What does that mean? Basically that means you really need to subtract that number of "school sponsored" scholars (136) from 156 to calculate an "apples to apples" comparison of actual number of bonafide NMS. Why? Simple. Some schools give out their own version of "merit scholarships" (with their own criteria as to who gets them) ... and as you'll see, some schools (like ASU) give out over 100+. In sum, ASU's "real", bonafide non-school sponsored NMS number is 20. Same goes for Texas A&M's 136* (101) = 35. Same goes for University of Florida's 233* (188) = 42.</p>

<p>Next compare that to schools like the Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Brown, Dartmouth, Penn, Columbia, Cornell, Stanford, MIT, Duke, Caltech, etc. You don't see any asterisks there do you?</p>

<p>Finally, and perhaps more importantly, once you've got the bonafide "apples to apples" NMS number, it only makes sense to then look at the NMS per capita ratio. </p>

<p>For example, ASU's 20 as a ratio of its incoming 2005 freshman class vs. Duke's 117 as a ratio of its incoming 2005 freshman class. I think it's pretty clear who is stronger.</p>

<p>When all is said and done, you'll find that Duke's number (as well as those of the Ivies/Stanford/MIT/Caltech) not only hold up to ASU, Florida and T A&M, they blow ASU, Florida and Texas A&M out of the water... as one might expect they would.</p>

<p>In fact, I've run those numbers before:
<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showpost.php?p=2885267&postcount=115%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showpost.php?p=2885267&postcount=115&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>*"This entire thread makes me laugh. Everyone states his/her opinion as fact. Face it, everyone: there is no "clear choice," because if there were, then there wouldn't be so much contention. Basically: Berkeley is an awesome choice, as is Duke. No matter what, you're going to get the same excellent education. I guarantee it. Neither is inferior to the other (I agree that often those who find that one is better than the other have the "US News disease"). They're unique, but it can be said: they're both exceptional. It simply depends on how you take advantage of what each has to offer.</p>

<p>The question is: how do you choose? This is where other factors come in: price, location, fit, etc. For me, Berkeley wins in that area. But then again, that's just me."*</p>

<p>This is exactly what my point is. They both belong to the same tier. And regarding to the statement I made that Berkeley is more popular outside of the US... was just a bunos to Berkeley.</p>

73

<p>you can't really go wrong with either decision!</p>

<p>Location
if you live in CA or anywhere else besides NC, I'd choose Berkeley over Duke
if you live in North Carolina, I'd choose UNC over Duke :D</p>

<p>Financial
no question I'd choose Berkeley, if ur instate u might get scholarship and other good stuff easier. So if you need $$$ choose Berkeley.</p>

<p>education
I'd say they are about the same depending on what major ur talking about. Some people may say Berkeley is overcrowded. But I'd still prefer Berkley</p>

<p>sports
It's better to go to Cal's football games than Duke's 0-12 record. However, it's better to go watch basketball games at Duke than anywhere else. But the old stadium might be small and hard to get tickets for students.
I don't know how good is Berkeley's sports but Duke's sport is SOOOOOO overrated. Plus, CA has more fun stuff to do than NC.</p>

<p>that's my opinion</p>

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<p>"I read somewhere on CC that the number of Dukies at HLS took a big hit this year."</p>

<p>......And we all know that everything we read on cc is always true. :)</p>

<p>What is "HLS"? :confused:</p>

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<p>Harvard Law School</p>

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<p>Thanks.</p>

<p>( I though Yale might have been replaced with some school starting with an L, and I missed it....... )</p>

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<p>Prestige,
You are right about the per capita NMS numbers. I concede that...I figured someone on CC would've done an analysis!
I think your analysis might have to include data from all the rankings for the same period however (I see you have '91-07 for US News) to be consistent. Since, however, I think the other data isn't done annually, I think your analysis should be okay--I have read that the WSJ feeder score was done once before in 2003.</p>

<p>SG</p>

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<p>1sokkermom,
Look at this link on the number of HLS students for 2006:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.law.harvard.edu/admissions/jd/colleges.php%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.law.harvard.edu/admissions/jd/colleges.php&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>The year prior, the number was like 60 for Duke. I am trying to get the link but CC is not allowing the search engine for some reason.</p>

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<p>^ While this may be interesting, this list provides no information about application rates, acceptance rates, or individual institution matriculation rates for any given year. It merely provides a total number of current students at HLS that attended various institutions as undergraduates.</p>

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<p>This is the sort of info in the WSJ Placement Rankings. The matriculation tables can change dramatically from year to year and I remember that on one other thread referencing the data at HLS for last year, Duke had something like 60 students there. This year there are like 40 something. I just wanted to point that out.</p>

<p>For some reason, CC is no longer allowing searches of other threads--so I can hyperlink. It would be a shame if we can't search this site!</p>