<p>"Also, I argue vehemently because I'm tired of state school trolls skewing peoples perceptions on which undergrads are the best"</p>
<p>State school trolls? That is the worst elitist bull that I have ever heard. (Glad I can see what kind of person I'm dealing with here ...)</p>
<p>"...by saying Berkeley is no worse than Duke for undergrad by discounting all the evidence otherwise, you are shortchanging people who want real opinions with their future success in their best interest."</p>
<p>Go ahead and keep on thinking that Duke is significantly better than Berkeley and many other schools; I'll refrain from putting myself under such delusions.</p>
<p>But hear this (and I'm not the only one who thinks it): undergrad is extremely difficult to compare, especially among the best universities.</p>
<p>"And we are talking about undergrad, not grad, I guess since there is NO evidence on Cal being as good as Duke for undergrad, Berkeley supporters continue bringing up grad programs and historic achievements by researchers rather than focusing on undergrad. On contrast, Duke is by far superior to Cal for undergrad and pretty much everything relevant points to that."</p>
<p>USNews, the independent ranking body which is known to be biased to private schools, has consistently ranked Berkeley in the top 3 or 5 in every individual program assessment. For example, Berkeley Haas is ranked top 3, Engineering top 2/3. </p>
<p>I would like to see USNews complete its assessments to all undergraduate programs just like it did in the graduate programs. Because as far as I am concern, when you rate a college, you shouldn't miss to factor in the strength of the program. This is something which USNews have FAILED to do when it came out with its ranking of Best universities. This is why great schools like Berkeley, Virginia and Michigan were ranked lower than they should have been. For example, Notre Dame was ranked ahead of Berkeley. Scholars all over America and the world raised eyebrows. It was a big joke. Let’s do a random survey amongst university professors from Florida, Ohio and New York. Let’s ask them which is the better school between Berkeley and Notre Dame and I’m confident that they will tell you it would have to be Berkeley flatly.</p>
<p>-whoa, i think all of you have way too much time on your hands. either way, duke and berkeley are great schools. However, I think Duke is better in undergrad a bit, but it's really up to you if you think it's worth the 20,000+ dollars in private tuition.
-it also depends on what you want to study and what atmosphere you're looking for.
-personally, i would choose Duke for undergrad and then Berkeley for the graduate programs if you're thinking of engineering or some sort.
-and why are you asking now? u couldn't have been admitted to both already. and if you were admitted to duke, you'd have no choice but to go.</p>
<p>I actually share the same sentiment... but just for the sake of curiosity... it would have been interesting to see how USNews could have rated Berkeley outside of the top 20, overall, when all its departments and courses are rated within the top 2/3/4. I'd like to see USNews display its ironies so that more and more people would have a reason to laugh at.</p>
<p>So far, the magazine rated 2 undergrad programs: Engineering and Business. And so far, Berkeley’s ranking was fantastic.</p>
<p>Does Duke offer engineering? </p>
<p>I hope that those anti Berkeley here wouldn’t recommend Duke over Berkeley when someone asks where to go if he intends to major in engineering or business.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I'm tired of state school trolls skewing peoples perceptions on which undergrads are the best
[/quote]
</p>
<p>The statistics you list are definitely indicators of a school's academic quality, and should certainly be considered. But the fact of the matter is, there just isn't much difference between the quality of education at Duke and that at Berkeley. THERE JUST ISN'T. Some stats I'm sure favor Berkeley, and others favor Duke. Both of these schools are excellent choices, amazing institutions with a lot of opportunities and great reputations. Choosing based on which one is "better" is impossible. And no, Duke is not inherently better because Berkeley is a state school. State schools rock and many of them are among the best instititions in the world.</p>
<p>And besides, I'm tired of this business like the only thing that matters in a choosing in a school is grad school placement and average salary upon graduation. Puh-lease! We make ourselves. No school is going to guarantee you those things. You have to achieve it yourself and earn it and it's not going to matter if you go to Longwood or Harvard. You know why Harvard has better placement than Longwood? Because the kids that go there were ALREADY smart and motivated enough to achieve the kinds of things needed to be successful. People present it like it's cause-and-effect--that the college is what makes the students go on to good grad schools--and that's just not the case. The kids already had what it took.</p>
you can't really go wrong with either decision!</p>
<p>Location
if you live in CA or anywhere else besides NC, I'd choose Berkeley over Duke
if you live in North Carolina, I'd choose UNC over Duke </p>
<p>Financial
no question I'd choose Berkeley, if ur instate u might get scholarship and other good stuff easier. So if you need $$$ choose Berkeley.</p>
<p>education
I'd say they are about the same depending on what major ur talking about. Some people may say Berkeley is overcrowded. But I'd still prefer Berkley</p>
<p>sports
It's better to go to Cal's football games than Duke's 0-12 record. However, it's better to go watch basketball games at Duke than anywhere else. But the old stadium might be small and hard to get tickets for students.
I don't know how good is Berkeley's sports but Duke's sport is SOOOOOO overrated. Plus, CA has more fun stuff to do than NC.</p>
<p>that's my opinion
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</p>
<p>I post that again :D Who said Duke is better than Berkeley in everything is wrong! I chose Maryland over Duke! If I got in Berkeley I would consider it (especially instate) I don't know what u talking about.</p>
<p>
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I hope that those anti Berkeley here wouldn’t recommend Duke over Berkeley when someone asks where to go if he intends to major in engineering or business.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I hope that those pro Berkeley here wouldn't recommend Cal over Duke when someone asks where to go if he/she intends to go to the best undergraduate program he/she can.</p>
<p>(btw, just for the record, the OP originally asked about biology - not engineering or business - it's very sly how some people slip "engineering" - out of nowhere - into any Cal related discussion - even though the original post had absolutely nothing to do with engineering... <em>amused</em>)</p>
<p>Then read my posts from the start to the end so you will understand how those undergrad degrees in eng’g and business got into the picture. But in case you're too tired to do it, I will help brush up on it.</p>
<p>The USNews, an independent ranking body known as an anti-public, etc, etc...has so far assessed only 2 undergraduate programs, and these are Business and Engineering. In those two separate assessments, it was evident that Berkeley, a world-class academic instiution, ranked quite impressively: #2/3 in engineering and #2/3 in business. What I was trying to say is if USNews has continued its job and assessed each and every undergraduate academic majors (example all languages, social sciences, physical sciences, IT, etc.) it would have been a more useful tool to the public. It would have been less debatable. As it stands, the results of its ranking (which, BTW, has weird criteria, etc...) came out quite deceiving. It does not provide the right information that its readers are asking. Why is it more important to rate each undergrad academic field than rating the combined undergrad programs as one? Simply because a college student majors just one field and that’s why is his main concerns. Have you asked to yourself why would he go to Harvard in engineering if he has been accepted at Caltech as well? Should a student choose to go to Harvard just because it is Harvard? </p>
<p>And since you're so confident to recommend Duke's BS Biology, show us a proof -- even just one single proof -- that will justify Duke's Biology's undergraduate program is superior to that of Berkeley's. </p>
<p>I would be very interested to see that. Please do not vanish after reading this.</p>
<p>*My internet connection has lagged and it has been like this since the earthquake in Taiwan. I wanted to re-edit my last post before this but 20minutes have already lapsed so I want to ask you all an apology that I have to repost the same message but this time, it has been edited.</p>
<p>Here it is one more time:*</p>
<p>the_prestige, </p>
<p>Then read my posts from the start to the end so you will understand how those undergrad degrees in eng’g and business got into the picture. But in case you're too tired to do it, I will help brush up on it.</p>
<p>The USNews, an independent ranking body known as an anti-public, etc, etc...has so far assessed only 2 undergraduate programs, and these are Business and Engineering. In those two separate assessments, it was evident that Berkeley, a world-class academic instiution, ranked quite impressively: #2/3 in engineering and #2/3 in business. What I was trying to say is if USNews has continued its job and assessed each and every undergraduate academic majors (example all languages, social sciences, physical sciences, IT, etc.) it would have been a more useful tool to the public. It would have been less debatable. As it stands, the results of its ranking (which, BTW, has weird criteria, etc...) came out quite deceiving. It does not provide the right information that its readers are asking. Why is it more important to rate each undergrad academic field than rating the combined undergrad programs as one? Simply because a college student majors just one field and that’s what is his main concerns. Have you asked to yourself why would you go to Harvard engineering if you have been accepted at Caltech/MIT/Berkeley/Stanford's engineering? Should a student choose to go to Harvard just because it is Harvard? </p>
<p>And since you're so confident to recommend Duke's BS Biology, show us a proof -- even just one single proof -- that will justify Duke's Biology's undergraduate program is superior to that of Berkeley's. I would be very interested to see that. And please do not vanish after reading this post.</p>
<p>"Unless it was for financial reasons, that doesn't sound like a very good choice. I can understand Berkeley over Duke, but Maryland?"</p>
<p>I'm not really familiar with U of Maryland but I can't say that it's not prestigious. To be honest, I’m not even familiar with Duke until I got myself involved in this discourse. But it seems some US universities that I have little knowledge of are really well regarded even if it does not have that global appeal that much. Duke was the classic case. </p>
<p>The following PUBLIC schools that I can say are popular outside of the US are the ff:</p>
<p>UC Berkeley
U of Virginia (UVa)
U of Michigan
UCLA
U of Texas
U of Illinois
U of Florida
Purdue
Georgia Tech
Carnegie Mellon (???)
William and Mary
U of Wisconsin </p>
<p>The names that appear here are not in order. And this is just a personal observation.</p>
<p>Though you may argue that this is a ranking for graduate studies, I’m sure a substantial portion of these leaks down to the undergraduate level as they share the same campus, the same books, the same laboratory, the same faculty, etc…</p>
<p>Could it also be that Duke is a powerhouse in undergraduate Biology even if their graduate program in Bio sucks? Yes, it could be. But I need proof.</p>
<p>IMO---CAL is by far the better choice based on academics and intl.recognition,-but you have an addtl element to consider-you live in the Bay Area. This is a factor that may sway your decision toward Duke.
Good Luck!</p>
<p>
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Have you asked to yourself why would you go to Harvard engineering if you have been accepted at Caltech/MIT/Berkeley/Stanford's engineering? Should a student choose to go to Harvard just because it is Harvard?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Well, most people with the luxury of choosing between Cal and Harvard choose Harvard. That's not opinion. That's just a fact.</p>
<p>Even when it comes to something like engineering, graduating with a Harvard College degree is more desirable. Sakky has made extensive and consistent comments as to "why" this is the case.</p>
<p>
[quote]
And since you're so confident to recommend Duke's BS Biology, show us a proof -- even just one single proof -- that will justify Duke's Biology's undergraduate program is superior to that of Berkeley's.</p>
<p>I would be very interested to see that. Please do not vanish after reading this.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>um, when was i "confident" or when did i "recommend" Duke's biology program over Cal's? </p>
<p>try re-reading MY posts for a change. all i said was that the original post asked about biology - and the only reason i brought that up at all was to highlight the disconnect or irrelevance of YOU bringing up engineering within that context. nothing more, nothing less. </p>
<p>of course i don't expect you to understand that level of nuance since you are like a blind pro-Cal fanatic enraged with sound and fury.</p>
<p>don't be bitter. :)</p>
<p>...btw, i have no intentions of "vanishing", and i certainly wouldn't do it on your behalf.</p>
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To be honest, I’m not even familiar with Duke until I got myself involved in this discourse.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>But see, it's not a matter of whether you're familiar with the school. Duke is consistently considered a top 10 school by many, many people. Cal, too, is considered an excellent institution and the best public school in the nation.</p>
<p>Maryland can't hold a candle to Duke or Cal. Sorry College Park fans, but that's the truth. So I find it strange that someone smart enough to get into Duke would actually turn down Duke for U-Maryland, unless of course it is for financial reasons.</p>
<p>Program rank is irrelevant. A great majority of Stanford engineers don't even go into engineering. They go either go into management/ business or professional/ graduate school and the top undergrad programs according to USNEWS shine at placing undergrads into the next phase of their life in a better way. Cal students never seem to understand this. My best friend was a History major and is now a venture capitalist, do you think the History "program rank" mattered? Nope, what mattered was Dartmouth college. that's the bottom line. too many people go into places like Cal and get stuck in "programs" when their Ivy (and duke, etc) counterparts can major in anything and then do anything. Publics just don't get this.</p>
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[quote]
Unless it was for financial reasons, that doesn't sound like a very good choice. I can understand Berkeley over Duke, but Maryland?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I'm in grad school tho (engineering) :D that's why. Yes I don't have to pay for going grad school at Maryland. At Duke I know I will and houses and stuff too. </p>
<p>but this is undergrad, well there are alot of other things I'd prefer Cal over Duke. I know 1 person transfer from Duke to Maryland undergrad. But kids here at Maryland really hate Duke for multiple reasons :D (well every hates Duke not just Maryland) SOOOOOOO overated.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Maryland can't hold a candle to Duke or Cal. Sorry College Park fans, but that's the truth. So I find it strange that someone smart enough to get into Duke would actually turn down Duke for U-Maryland, unless of course it is for financial reasons.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>for my case, grad school, I've been living here, I don't wanna move down to NC. :D also fanancial reasons. Yes, people SAY that Duke is better than Maryland, but not overall. Some majors Duke wins, some Maryland wins, it's depending on ur majors and where you wanna fit in. As for the rankings, Some international universities also rank Maryland higher than Duke overall. Search for the top world's universities. both Duke and Maryland are unknown to international people. Ok I'll take Maryland out of the conversation.</p>
<p>Berkeley is very well known. Go to China or Europe and they will know where Berkeley is. It's just what rankings / majors you wanna choose. For me I'd choose Berkeley.</p>
<p>Though you may argue that this is a ranking for graduate studies, I?m sure a substantial portion of these leaks down to the undergraduate level as they share the same campus, the same books, the same laboratory, the same faculty, etc?</p>
<p>Could it also be that Duke is a powerhouse in undergraduate Biology even if their graduate program in Bio sucks? Yes, it could be. But I need proof.
Tsk, tsk. Do more research before you make yourself look like foolish. ;) As I mentioned before, Duke is a powerhouse for ecology/evolution **both on the undergraduate and graduate level<a href="in%20the%20%5Burl=http://www.stat.tamu.edu/%7Ejnewton/nrc_rankings/area14.html%5Dtop%203%5B/url%5D">/b</a>, although its biochemistry and genetics programs aren't quite as strong. In any case, their graduate program hardly "sucks." Duke easily comes out on top in programs like botany, BAA, marine biology, and environmental science. As I mentioned on the very first page of this thread, Duke offers many resources for a biology major that Berkeley can't match (like a marine lab, primate center, and med school).</p>