<p>OK, so I had the good fortune of getting an acceptance letter from each of the above named schools. I was wondering, in terms of academic caliber and job placement, how the four would be ranked. First off, I know Duke has a really large Econ program, and has an emphasis on strong alumni connections. Dartmouth is much the same, with respect to a strong Econ program and an emphasis on alumni connections. Berkeley has a lot of international prestige, and California puts it in a good position for future business deals with Asia (I am Chinese). Finally, the MMSS program is supposed to very excellent, and accepts very few students. So, which to choose?</p>
<p>Any advice, on any of the schools will be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance!</p>
<p>As of now, I’m unsure. However, top choices would be: Finance, Management Analyst (Consultant), or Actuarial Science. But, majoring in Econ undergrad is fine with me, as there is recruitment straight out of college, which is my goal. In the future, I may also decide to get a Ph. D after working a few years so that I can become a business professor (probably my overall top choice).</p>
<p>OP,
In case you don’t know, econ at Berkeley and Northwestern is ranked significantly higher than that at Duke/Dartmouth. I throw that out just because you mentioned their “strong econ” but not Berkeley/NU’s and thought you might have been misinformed on that. </p>
<p>MMSS is going to give you strong technical background for an actuarial career. Quite a few MMSS students were actuarial intern in the past few years: <a href=“http://www.mmss.northwestern.edu/students/Internship_Directory.pdf[/url]”>http://www.mmss.northwestern.edu/students/Internship_Directory.pdf</a> It also gives you strong training for research in social sciences/finance if you decide to do PhD in the future. As far as academics goes, I don’t think econ at Duke/Dartmouth is gonna match MMSS+econ at Northwestern. Hass’ is a different animal and is a business major. </p>
<p>Also, if you get good grades in MMSS, you can get into the Kellogg certificate program. MMSS automatically fulfills all the pre-reqs requirements. [Kellogg</a> School Certificate Program for Undergraduates - Kellogg School of Management - Northwestern University](<a href=“http://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/certificate/index.htm]Kellogg”>http://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/certificate/index.htm) The four courses under both certificate programs are actual MBA courses that cover the same materials Kellogg students learn.</p>
<p>For jobs in finance or consulting, Dartmouth and Duke by a mile. They are much, much more represented on Wall Street and in management consulting than the others. For being an actuary it doesn’t matter.</p>
<p>^hmom5,
Are you 100% sure that even MMSS or Kellogg certificate doesn’t offset or surpass the alleged advantage that Dartmouth/Duke has over <em>regular</em> NU students? You seemed to keep comparing NU with Duke/Dartmouth while ignoring the special program. Note that MMSS students have proven they could get summer analyst positions with firms like GS. Also given that MMSS enrolls just 20 freshmen, doesn’t it occur to you the chance of them getting those summer positions is just as good? In this past winter quarter, even McKinsey came to recruit MMSS students, despite the economy.</p>
<p>I’m not going to dispute the quality of NU’s MMSS program or Kellogg Certificate program, but I feel you do have an intrinsic (and not unwarranted bias) in favor of NU. =p</p>
<p>However, the advice you gave sounds good and I will definitely still keep NU under consideration. Another factor I have in mind however, is overall intelligence of the undergrad population. I know Northwestern has lots of smart people, but I’m not sure if there is not somewhat of a gap between them and Dartmouth/Duke.</p>
<p>These are all fantastic choices with Dartmouth having the edge IMO. But the reality is if you work hard at any of these you will get your choice of job.</p>
<p>silyaznfoo,
I may have bias but I do have data to back up what I said. I think most people that have commented here don’t know anything about Kellogg certificate. The probably think it’s some kind of baby business or businss minor because there are only 4 courses. But when the pre-reqs are included, it’s actually a 11-12 course program. Those four courses are full-blown MBA courses that would blow any typical undergrad business courses out of the water.</p>
<p>I really don’t see how Dartmouth/Duke would be above Kellogg certificate. I have already posted the link that says the MAJORITY of Kellogg certificate students “obtained summer internships at top companies in various industries, including investment banking, management consulting, actuarial consulting, stock analysis, hedge funds, fixed income sales and trading, private equity, mergers and acquisitions, securities, private banking, and healthcare investment banking”. There’s no way the majority of Dartmouth/Duke students who apply would obtain those jobs. That’s implicitly confirmed by slipper1234 when he said “the reality is if you work hard at any of these, you will get your choice of job”; so in short, you need to do well in Dartmouth/Duke to have a chance and that by definition does not mean “the majority” but the left tail of the curve. Those jobs would not be just handed to you if you are just average over there. </p>
<p>Another thing I forgot to mention is if you were in Kellogg certificate, there’s a dedicated career services professional that would help you identify suitable career paths and secure summer internships. You would be using the resources of Kellogg, not just the regular career services center for undergrads. </p>
<p>The only catch is the Kellogg certificate isn’t a given and you have to apply. So there’s a risk of not getting in.</p>
<p>Well, let’s assume SAT/ACT range is a good estimate of “smartness” and take a look at the ranges from collegeboard.com:
SAT CR, Math, ACT ranges:
Dartmouth: 660 - 770, 670 - 780, 29 - 34
Duke: 660 - 760, 680 - 780, 29 - 34
Northwestern: 670 - 750, 690 - 780, 30 - 33</p>
<p>I don’t see much of a difference there. Not to mention the average for college of arts and sciences at NU was 15 points higher than university average (because specialty schools like music, communications have lower averages).</p>
<p>Sam, I’ve hired for 30 years for a BB ibank. It’s Dartmouth and Duke by a mile, NU is not even close. We really are not talking SAT scores, we are talking entrenched networks on WS, which like it or not is all about nepotism.</p>
<p>Thanks to everybody for the feedback so far!</p>
<p>@ Sam, I don’t disagree that the SAT scores don’t show too much of a gap, but in overall terms of selectivity, I still feel Northwestern is easier to get into. At my school, the average accepted GPA is 4.34, while Duke is 4.63, Dartmouth is 4.66, and Berkeley is 4.4. A 4.5 GPA is approx top 10 out of 500.</p>
<p>Also, I feel slipper1234 makes an excellent point. I’m a dedicated and motivated worker, and I believe I can succeed at any of these schools (not to be cocky or anything). So, it may just come down to which school I feel I would enjoy myself in better. But, for the sake of discussion vis a vis the academic caliber of the programs let’s keep this going. =)</p>
<p>It seems like we are going through circles. Yes, Dartmouth/Duke has greater network and therefore is better than <em>regular</em> Northwestern in terms of getting WS job. I think it’s pretty clear I never said otherwise. What I was saying is that the success rate of landing those high finance internships seems to indicate the Kellogg certificate program offsets the disadvantage and does more. The Kellogg program started not long ago; why are you so sure that there isn’t anything about it you don’t know? As I mentioned, the Kellogg certificate has its own career advising set up just for the students in that program and it uses the resources of KELLOGG! On the other hand, Dartmouth/Duke students can only use their run of the mill undergrad career services center. So right there, there’s already a difference. This is esssentially an honors program of an already a top-15 college with the Kellogg’s name; I’d hope you can start to give it some credits. </p>
<p>Are you telling me Dartmouth/Duke students overall would have that kind of success? I don’t think WS has that many openings to fit the whole class of Dartmouth/Duke!</p>
<p>Also, I mentioned SAT only to answer OP’s question. The OP is looking at several things, not just WS potential. It’s interesting how people would just start talking about WS and then narrow the whole discussion to it as if it’s the only thing that matters.</p>
<p>silaznfoo,
Northwestern has higher admit rate so it is easier to get in. But I don’t believe there’s much difference in the caliber of student body. I think geography may play a role in the GPA differential if your HS is in the east coast since schools like to diversify its student body. The success of NU students in winning prestigious scholarships show that you will find as many amazing students. Here’s a partial list of awards this year:
2 Rhodes
1 Marshall
1 Mitchell
5 Gates Cambridge (the most in the nation)
2 Churchill (the most in the nation)
3 Goldwater
29 Fulbright (likely among the top-3 if not the most)</p>
<p>
Northwestern’s econ is ranked higher than Duke/Dartmouth’s and MMSS is rigorous. Kellogg cert courses are MBA courses at Kellogg. I think as far as pure academics go, the answer is pretty clear.</p>
<p>Also, I disagree with hmom saying it doesn’t matter for actuarial jobs. Actually, quite a few MMSS students have done internships with large insurance companies. According to their 2006 alum letter, 2 of the MMSS alums became Fellows that year (the entire US has only 2000+ Fellows). There’s already ties established. Insurance companies don’t care too much about names because they know many students even at top schools don’t have the math ability to succeed. They specficly look for programs that have a history of getting them students with enough math talents and MMSS is one of them.</p>
<p>Sam, he also can’t assume that he will get into the Kellogg Certificate Program even though it is easier coming from MMSS. We are talking about the overall strength and recruiting on Wall Street which is definitely stronger for Duke and Dartmouth.</p>
<p>^Yes, I already mentioned the risk clearly and I am sure the OP knows it. No, we are not talking about recruiting for the overall school. I wouldn’t even bother if that’s the case as Dartmouth/Duke does have clear edge there. I think that’s well-understood. But look at the title of this thread. The OP is specficly questioning how much “extra” MMSS/Kellogg cert provides. Also, even with just MMSS, I saw that out of the 07 alums, 7 got intern positions with GS, LB, and ML and most of them were NYC locations. That’s 7 out of a class of about 40 people and many of the 40 students were having other plans such as going to insurance, think tanks, or grad schools (MMSS isn’t supposed to be a business program). That’s a decent rate. But for a risk averse person that isn’t sure he’s gonna do well on MMSS (it’s pretty rigorous after all) or get into Kellogg cert, then Dartmouth/Duke is gonna be better for WS recruiting.</p>
<p>Also, the OP isn’t even deadset on IB which is kinda dead at the moment. So this shouldn’t be all about WS recruiting anyway. MMSS is a kick*ss program strictly from the pure academics point of view. How OP factors that into his decision is up to him.</p>
<p>OP, just one more thing: the first sequence of “Statistical Methods for MMSS” (fall quarter of your second year) should give you most of the background you need to sit for the first actuarial exam (if you haven’t already taken it by then and want to take it at some point).</p>
<p>I’m not telling you the certificate program is not amazing, special one of a kind or the best thing since sliced bread. I have no clue.</p>
<p>What I am telling you is that firms hire from the same schools year after year. Individuals like to hire from the schools they attended. When you go to any school that does not have a strong network in an industry your chances of landing a job are seriously reduced.</p>
<p>Do you really think the folks hiring take the time to find out about NU’s new certificate program?</p>
<p>Well, if your main motivation is career in banking and finance or consulting, Berkeley-Haas and Dartmouth would be the top choices, although all the rest have pretty good records of sending grads to top paying jobs. If you’re not Asian, I think you would be a great addition to Berkeley-Haas as your presence there would create a good mix of social, racial and cultural atmosphere. But since you’re Asian, you’d be just another smart, very talented Asian student at Berkeley. For that reason, I would not recommend you to go to Berkeley. That means, Dartmouth would be the best option here for you. Of course, the other options are all excellent alternatives. </p>
<p>Personally, this is how I would rank them: Berkeley-Haas = Dartmouth > Duke = Northwestern MMSS (and Kellogg Certificate). </p>
<p>But since you’re Chinese, I’m afraid I would have to reverse that.
Dartmouth = Duke = Northwester MMSS (and Kellogg Certificate) > Berkeley-Haas.</p>
<p>Any proof for that? Maybe Dartmouth would be better than Berkeley-Haas, but Duke over Berkeley??? That’s not quite true at all. In fact, Berkeley grads, including grads of other colleges or colleges outside of Haas, earn more than Duke grads do. Berkeley has a strong alumni network, though much of that is strongly seen in the West Coast. I doubt if Duke grads are preferred to Berkeley-Haas grads are even in East Coast companies.</p>