<p>Woah. I remember the woman at the info sessions saying they didn't defer, but the supp doesn't lie I guess.</p>
<p>The admissions rep may have been describing their actual practice. I don't really know. However, if they aren't sold enough to accept an applicant in ED, they probably aren't going to be more sold in March. It's probably more fair to applicants to not defer a ton of students.</p>
<p>Not to mention that ED2 and RD at Swarthmore most likely will have applicants who were deferred or rejected from schools like Yale, Harvard, Brown, Williams, Amherst, Pomona. Competition might get stiffer with these applicants joining in who only as an alternative to their first choice EA or ED school will apply to excellent, though slightly less selective schools like Swarthmore, Haverford, and Middlebury.</p>
<p>Uhm, Kelly? Swarthmore is on par selectivity-wise with Williams, Amherst, and above (I think) Pomona, etc.</p>
<p>And from what I understand, EDII isn't known for getting all that more difficult. I could be wrong.</p>
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Swarthmore is on par selectivity-wise with Williams, Amherst, and above (I think) Pomona, etc.
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<p>Amherst, Swarthmore, Williams, Brown, Dartmouth, Duke are all roughly comparable from a selectivity standpoint. It's really not rocket science to figure out. All you really have to do is look at median SAT scores, although each school varies a bit in the type of student they are looking for. SATs are not the end all and be all for individual students, but when looking at a class as a whole, they are a pretty precise measure.</p>
<p>Swarthmore's five top overlap schools for applicants are Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Brown, and Amherst. I think Pomona would be on the list, too, except that there is limited overlap between California and East Coast schools.</p>
<p>If I had to guess, I would think that the biggest chunk of EDII applicants are students who opted to take the flyer at Harvard, Yale, or Princeton first.</p>
<p>I think the overall acceptance rates at Williams, Amherst, and Pomona are around 18%. Swarthmore's is around 25-26%. Not a large difference, but from an admissions selectivity standpoint, a significant one.</p>
<p>I think you have to add Brown to that Yale, Harvard, Princeton list.</p>
<p>NJPitcher--</p>
<p>Swarthmore does defer ED students to regular decision. One of my mom's friends from Swarthmore has a daughter who applied ED last year. D had high grades, 5s on a few APs, and quite strong SATs, but she wasn't very involved with any ECs. As a double legacy, she was defered to RD and then eventually accepted. This girl's uncle is the head of one of the academic departments at Swat and he told her to keep up a lot of contact with the school and to ask if there was anything extra she could send to prove herself. So basically what I'm saying is no one should give up if he or she gets defered--it's not a rejection yet!</p>
<p>kelly--</p>
<p>Acceptance rates can be misleading. Possibly more applicants to Swarthmore know that they are a good fit for the school. Swarthmore's applicant pool might have more people that the school wants than Pomona and the like do. I don't think that a 7% difference in acceptance rates--in this case, anyway--constitutes a gap in selectivity. And I agree that median SATs are good base for comparison.</p>
<p>cjsb0160 is correct--acceptance rate percentages can be misleading. Swarthmore will not have a lot of people applying "just to see" if they can get in, like most of the aforementioned schools. The applicant pool will be a little more self-selective, like that at University of Chicago. If the tough workload doesn't scare them off, then the quirky student body, rumored mild social scene or simple lack of name recognition will. It's something the students in love with Swat are counting on!</p>
<p>Just for the sake of accuracy, Swarthmore's acceptance rate for this year's freshman class was 22%.</p>
<p>Swarthmore's and Middlebury's SAT scores are identical at about 1430-1440. Acceptance rates are identical too for last few years at about 22-26%. Are the schools about even then in selectivity? Interesting to note that Middlebury's yield is about 45-50%, while Swarthmore's is always around or below 40%. Is Midd more desireable, then, based on the numbers? Why do most think Midd is less selective when the numbers are the same? I know Williams, Pomona, Amherst are considered the most selective LACs, with the next tier with Swarthmore, Middlebury, Bowdoin and others, if one looks at the numbers.</p>
<p>i would like to weigh in on this one. although midd is a great school, it usually is not placed on the same rung as a aws. a lot of the overlapped schools with swarthmore are the more exclusive ivy league schools and the low yield may be attributable to that. on the other hand, i'm not so certain that the ivy students view midd in the same light. that said, midd may have an overlap of schools that are not as high as the ivies. so midd may be competing with bowdoin, haverford, vassar and wes. out of those schools, i think midd may be the most desirable and that would give midd a higher yield. on the other hand, swat may be the least desirable among hyp, brown, dartmouth and amherst and maybe williams so it's yield would be lower.now this is nothing against midd or bowdoin or vassar, it's just that there are perceptions among high school students about what schools are higher on the food chain, deserved or not. as such, the acceptance rates of midd and swat may be identical, the quality of the applicants may be different and that may be why swat is perceived as more selective.</p>
<p>But how is the quality of applicants different if the stats are the same?</p>
<p>Midd's SAT scores are not an accurate gauge of selectivity because they are optional and many applicants don't submit them. An applicant is more likely to submit SAT I scores if they do well, a fact that skews Midd's averages upward.</p>
<p>That being said, I somewhat disagree with BlacknBlue's assessment of things. In an article in the Williams Record, Williams' dean of admissions had this to say:</p>
<p>"Most students that have been accepted to Williams have also been admitted elsewhere, Nesbitt said. He estimated that most overlaps occur with Yale, Harvard, Amherst, Princeton, Dartmouth, Brown and Middlebury."</p>
<p>Middlebury lists its greatest overlap schools as Dartmouth, Williams, Amherst, Yale, and Brown.</p>
<p>BnB, part of your explanation makes sense. When I did a visit to Swarthmore, I met many students who shared where they applied/accepted. As you say, many were not accepted at Yale, Harvard, Brown, Princeton, Amherst, and most were happy to be at Swarthmore. They did not feel as if they were giving anything up when it comes to academic quality, just prestige and car sticker or parents bragging satisfaction.</p>
<p>Arcadia, the overlaps you listed also shows that Midd is identical to Swarthmore selectivity-wise/perception among high school students.</p>
<p>Middlebury is also a very selective college. However, the admissions profile at Middlebury and Swarthmore are so different that it borders on silly to even compare the two. I would guess that there is virtually no overlap in the applicant pools.</p>
<p>Middlebury has next to no diversity with 76% of the school being white US citizens compared to 62% at Swarthmore. For this year's freshman class, 49% of the accepted students at Swarthmore were non-white US citizens and another 7% were internationals. The diffference is even more striking in the percentage of full-pay students: 63% of the freshman class at Middlebury last year versus 47% at Swarthmore. </p>
<p>These two factors have obvious implications for the bottom of the SAT distribution curve. Wealthy white students score higher than lower-income, non-white students. You can see these differences in the stats for the two schools. The 25th percentile is higher at Middlebury (1380) than at Swarthmore (1350), a function of socio-economic and diversity profiles. However, at the top end, the 75th percentile for Swarthmore is 1530 versus 1500 at Middlebury.</p>
<p>The LACs with the highest median SATS are:</p>
<p>Harvey Mudd: 1380-1560
Amherst: 1360-1550
Pomona: 1370-1530
Swarthmore: 1350 - 1530
Williams: 1330-1520
Middlebury: 1380-1500</p>
<p>There are no other LACs with 75th percentile SATs of 1500 or higher. The universities in that category are Havard, CalTech, MIT, Yale, Princeton, Stanford, Dartmouth, Columbia, Rice, Duke, Chicago, Wash-StL, Brown, Penn, and Northwestern. </p>
<p>IMO, trying to split hairs on "selectivity" between any of the LACs listed above shows a lack of sophistication in understanding what really drives admissions. Specifically, you have to match the profile of the applicant to the admissions profile of the college. I could easily give you a hypothetical applicant who would be a lock at Middlebury and have no chance at Swarthmore. Conversely, there are applicants who would be a lock at Swarthmore and have no chance at Middlebury. It is extremely dangerous to think of admissions in terms of "generic" applicants. You really have to consider the prospects at each school for an applicant in your specific category. The prospects for a white, wealthy applicant with the same test scores are different at Middlebury and Swarthmore. The prospects for a Cambodian immigrant with 1350 SATs and strong community service involvement are different at Middlebury and Swarthmore. The prospects for an all-prep varsity football player with 1250 SATS are different at Williams and Swarthmore.</p>
<p>For an example of how the admissions criteria vary, consider that Swarthmore gives heavy weight to the "Why Swarthmore?" essay. Williams doesn't even ask the question.</p>
<p>Then are rankings like US News unsophisticated since they use admissions data as a large part of each school's overall ranking without looking at each school's priorities in filling its class? If so, then why are they so relied upon? So many of the perceived top schools owe their current trendiness/popularity to these rankings which drive more applicants to apply to them making their admissions data even more selective.</p>
<p>The point about SAT optional is an example of a detail that is important to consider.</p>
<p>50% of Middlebury's first year students submitted SAT scores versus 99% of Swarthmore's first year students. Which half of Middlebury's freshmen do you think submitted their SAT scores? I dunno, but I would guess it tended to be the students with the higher scores!</p>
<p>There's a similar difference in the details of the yield number. Middlebury accepted 49% of its freshman class Early Decsion compared to 38% at Swarthmore.</p>
<p>I don't think there's a difference in the quality of education at Swarthmore and Middlebury. They're both good schools.</p>
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Then are rankings like US News unsophisticated since they use admissions data as a large part of each school's overall ranking without looking at each school's priorities in filling its class?
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<p>Yes, of course. Choosing a college based on the USNEWS rankings is incredibly unsophisticated and superficial. For example, Columbia and Dartmouth are tied in the USNEWS rankings, but I can't image two high-end private universities where the undergrad experience would be more different than at those two universities. How about Emory and UC-Berkeley. They are "tied", too, according to USNEWs. Would the undergrad experience be even remotely similar?</p>
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I don't think there's a difference in the quality of education at Swarthmore and Middlebury. They're both good schools.
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<p>They are both good schools. I wouldn't say that one is "better" than the other in terms of generic educational quality. They are, however, quite different. An individual student, with specific educational priorities might well find one or the other distinctly better for his or her needs. For example, there is a signficant difference in the student/faculty ratio and a corresponding difference in very small class sizes. For example, 20% of Middlebury's classes have fewer than 10 students versus 37% of Swarthmore's. 10.6% of Middlebury's classes have 40 or more students versus 3.3% at Swarthmore. There is also a signficant difference in the percentage of graduates going on to get PhDs. (21.1% at Swarthmore; 6.0% at Middlebury).</p>