<p>IMHO, size, location, and the relative importance of athletics are the 3 biggest differences between Swat and Midd. </p>
<p>IN GENERAL--
Midd kids are outdoorsy, outgoing, somewhat preppy, and athletic.</p>
<p>Swat kids are more introverted, quirky, intellectual, and (i don't mean this in a bad way) nerdy.</p>
<p>Middlebury's website indicates the median SAT I (which includes all SAT I's, not just the ones from the kids wanting them used in the evaluation process) was 1315 - not at all in the same league as Swat's.</p>
<p>USNews&Report just includes the 50% that wanted the optional SAT I's used in their evaluation. It is like comparing apples to oranges and really skews the selectivity numbers.</p>
<p>Basically, Middlebury lied on the Common Data Set test score information they provided to USNEWS.</p>
<p>On the class profile for the class of 2009, they list the 25th percentile SATs as 1230 and the 75th percentile as 1400.</p>
<p>Yet on their Common Data Set filing, they lie and say that only 50% of the students submitted SAT scores and that the medians are 1380 and 1500.</p>
<p>Sorry for the strong language, but "lie" is the only verb I can think of that really conveys what Middlebury is doing with the statistics they provide the guidebook publishers.</p>
<p>There are many examples of schools that "fudge" a bit on their stats (like not counting SATs for recruited athletes and other "special" admits). But, this is the most blatantly comprehensive disregard for the truth I've ever seen. There's a lot of difference between 1230-1400 and 1380-1500.</p>
<p>Are we sure that Midd didn't just make a mistake on their website? That SAT score sounds really low for a school of its caliber. I don't really think a school as popular with applicants as it is needs to lie.</p>
<p>Hey Kelly, I was just wondering - your profile says you are a student. Where do you go?</p>
<p>I'm a high school senior, not a college student. Applied EA to one school, might apply to Swarthmore ED2 or RD.</p>
<p>interesteddad--first of all, you're comparing stats from 2 different years (web site stats are for Class of '09, common data set is for class of '08). secondly, it states the following at the bottom of the Class of '09 profile:</p>
<p>"Note: Mid-50% Range: Half the class scored in this range; 25% scored higher, 25% scored lower. SAT 1's were not required for the Class of 2009 and ranges include all submitted tests, even if a different test type was used for evaluation e.g SAT II's, AP's, IB's or ACT.)"</p>
<p>The key words here are "all submitted tests, even if a different test type was used for evaluation..."</p>
<p>I interpret this to mean that Middlebury factored in all test types (including SAT IIs) into their averages. The common data set only asks for SAT I scores. Am I missing something here?</p>
<p>How would they do that?</p>
<p>I think that means they factored in the test scores even for students who chose to use other tests for evaluation. So it would make sense that the number would be much lower.</p>
<p>The language on Middlebury's Student Profile doesn't seem ambiguous at all:</p>
<p>
[quote]
SAT 1 Verbal Mid-50% Range 620-710
SAT 1 Math Mid-50% Range 610-690
[/quote]
</p>
<p>What they mean by the disclaimer is that the SAT1 scores reported above include SAT 1 test scores that were received by the college (they get the scores automatically with any College Board report), but ignored in evaluating the student.</p>
<p>ok--that makes sense. Wouldn't the common data set only include scores for those who chose to have their SAT I scores used in evaluating them?</p>
<p>arador,
kellymegreener is applying EA to Yale, yet doesn't seem to post on the Yale board. She seems to have taken a liking to "jousting" with posters on this board, rather interesting for someone contemplating applying ED2 to Swat.
BTW, I do enjoy your photos in the Gazette.</p>
<p>Yup, arador, love your photographs in the Gazette. I think you are an amazing, amazing photographer. </p>
<p>Actually, the profile of Arador and others like him show the calibre of students that Swat admits (regardless of discussions about comparisions with other schools). Arador was also responsible for the website for admitted students last year. And take a look at his postings on this board. I am very impressed.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Wouldn't the common data set only include scores for those who chose to have their SAT I scores used in evaluating them?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Yeah, if you want to inflate your scores and your USNEWS rank and you don't mind giving your prospective customers misleading data about whether the school is right for them or not. </p>
<p>Imagine what Swarthmore's median SATs would be like if they didn't report most of the bottom 50%?</p>
<p>Middlebury clearly receives SAT scores for a much larger percentage of the freshman class than they report to the guidebooks and the actual profile is clearly much different than the reported profile. </p>
<p>In retrospect, it should have been easy to spot that they are playing games. Only two general undergrad schools (Harvard, Yale) and three tech schools (CalTech, MIT, Harvey Mudd) report a 25th percentile as high as the bogus number Middlebury submitted to the guidebooks.</p>
<p>Other SAT-optional schools play games, but not to the extent of only reporting SAT scores for 50% of the freshmen. For example, Bowdoin reports SAT scores for 74% of its students.</p>
<p>I guess the lesson is to also look at the ACT range. Middlebury's median ACT scores (23% of freshmen) are equivalent to an SAT range of 1260 to 1420.</p>
<p>If someone submits SAT II scores to an SAT I optional school with the intention that their SAT I scores not be used to evaluate them, it would be unethical for the college to use the SAT I scores (which are included with the SAT II report) to evaluate their candidacy. If scores are not used to evaluate candidates, then they should not be included in the school's common data set, which is the mechanism through which guidebooks get their data. That is the nature of SAT I optional schools.</p>
<p>The common data set is very clear in its instructions:
"Percent and number of first-time, first-year (freshman) students enrolled in fall 2004 who submitted national standardized (SAT/ACT) test scores..."</p>
<p>If I choose not to submit SAT I scores to an SAT I optional school, then I'd imagine that my scores would not be included in that report. </p>
<p>I think that the fact that 84% of Midd students were in the top 10% of their high school class is a testament to their outstanding academic achievement.</p>
<p>Yeah, I understand the semantics game they are playing surrounding the word "submit".</p>
<p>I guess the lesson is that it's not enough to just look at SAT scores reported to USNEWS, but you also have to look at the percentage of students included in those reports. The problem is that I don't think you get the percentage in the standard USNEWS guidebook. You have to get the premium online edition or the deluxe printed edition.</p>
<p>This could really mess up somebody trying to put together a realistic application list. For example, USNEWS shows that Middlebury is harder to get into than Haverford. However, Haverford's real median SATs are much higher (1280-1460 with 100% of students "submitting").</p>
<p>I actually contacted USNews about this a month ago when I first noticed it and they have never responded. It is quite shocking actually.</p>
<p>I find it hard to believe it is merely an oversight.</p>
<p>It would seem that the spirit of the Common Data set would be such that all SAT I's received, whether or not the student chose to have the results used in their evaluation, would be expected to be reported. </p>
<p>I am surprised USNews and/or Middlebury would be so obviously misleading.</p>
<p>The same holds true for every SAT I optional school (including Bates, Mt. Holyoke, Bowdoin, and a number of other highly selective schools)...</p>
<p>I think most students applying to college see Swarthmore and Middlebury and Bowdoin as more academically similar than different.</p>
<p>Arador, Ill know on the 16th if I got in EA to Yale. If I do, Ill be a third-generation Yalie along with an older brother who is a junior there and gives me all the info I need about the school. More than Id find on any Internet message board about Yale.</p>
<p>But even as a legacy, admission to Yale is no guarantee. So Im looking at other places in case. Like a lot of students, Im attracted to Swarthmore by its academic reputation, but when I first came to these boards to get info, I found many of the regular posters here defensive and misleading in the kind of rosy picture they try to paint of the place (example of defensiveness: Momof3s only post on this particular subject thread). Search for my earliest posts and youll see more of what I mean. I know all schools have their fans on this site. Thats fine, but I think students would like to hear about the positives AND the negatives when looking at schools. I found this especially interesting, because I could not reconcile the pressured, stressed out, depressed, doom and gloom atmosphere of the place I witnessed during my visit with the happy happy isnt everything great descriptions given by some posters here (most of them not students there) who youd think worked for the public relations department or admissions office. I also dont know why some posters get so upset when anyone mentions the pecking order of schools that we all know exists.</p>
<p>The funny thing is that Swarthmore (and any other school) is more interesting as a place with both happy and unhappy students or students who are a little bit of both. I also found the chalkings thing funny, amusing, shocking, and all that, so I liked to reference it many times here. Its called a sense of humor; some posters here are just too serious about what they think is defending their schools (or their childrens schools) and would probably benefit from getting a bit of one.</p>
<p>BTW, I like your pictures too. Check out these:</p>
<p>That first one kills me! Good luck all ED1 applicants!</p>
<p>"I could not reconcile the pressured, stressed out, depressed, doom and gloom atmosphere of the place I witnessed during my visit with the happy happy isnt everything great descriptions given by some posters"</p>
<p>Then why are you considering applying there at all (let alone ED II)???</p>