Emory called my home yesterday? Did that happen to anyone else?
It looks like they changed something on the scholars page on the website. I’m pretty sure it used to say “by mid February” when I checked recently regarding finalist notification, and now it says “by end of February”.
@Perspicax_ asked on 3rd Feb, 2019 on twitter that:
Is there any word on when the Emory scholars notification will be released?
@EmoryAdmission responded:
Thanks for asking. Scholars finalists are notified by March 1st, and are invited for an on-campus weekend program in early April. From there, scholarship winners will be chosen soon after.
@sparkle44 : Yeah, it would be slightly lower. Last year would have been 17% which is close to 18.5%. ED plans help make it marginally lower, but not much lower like you would expect at schools that have 35-40+% yield). You have to remember that Emory (nor WUSTL) are not like the other near peer elite schools which migrated towards higher yield models or just naturally had higher yield (maybe they benefit from the brand of being an Ivy. Let us keep it real, in overlapping areas, I do not consider Brown or Cornell, and sometimes even Dartmouth better than an Emory, WUSTL, Vanderbilt, etc academically. They get a brand bump for sure and Cornell is definitely ultra strong in certain areas that students have flocked to post-recession such as engineering. They may be kind of different in some ways, but they aren’t better or much better at least). Those schools sometimes have a significant difference between overall and RD. They don’t have to admit as many RD applicants because their yield prediction models are more accurate.
@Obed625 Please take that with a grain of salt. By 3/1 means anytime between now and then. Everyone needs to stop bugging these poor admissions people.
@bernie12
Exactly RD yeild is low so Ed only helps by a few percentage points, the same can be said for WashU. Which are just as strong as brown in most fields. My friend graduated from Brown last year, she took summer classes at Emory and said the teaching was better.
@dkahfdfhk
We received an automated message phone call about financial aid deadlines.
@emorynavy : Ah, to me Brown is an odd school. I hope your friend is lying, and will blame her lol. Emory does not put forth its best teachers during summer except in a few courses, so she was really seeing it at its worst. However, my problem with Brown is what many consider a strength, the lack of gen. ed requirements. That means they have to do a concentration but I guess can ultimately select outside courses sort of flippantly. Given the high GPAs coming out of Brown, I imagine there would be more migration towards easier teachers to ensure that your GPA is on par with everyone else’s. In said cases, I suspect worse teaching is more likely.
Again, many of the “easiest” teachers are often the worst because they don’t care enough (or have time for) for students to think they are worth challenging. Students may also heavily sample large survey style courses outside of their major and we know many research universities (even the elite ones. Emory does a decent job only because its survey style courses often have comparatively smaller enrollment versus many peers) are not the best at delivering survey courses. The gen. ed structures many other schools almost de facto require students to take smaller more discussion style and writing focused courses out of their majors.
Brown’s system is awesome for those who like complete freedom, but may have limits with regards to learning because it assumes that students have a natural inclination towards wanting to learn at a high level (which may clash with the concept of say…a GPA, especially if those are inflated throughout the university in question). We may have bigger inclinations than those at much less selective schools, but often it is limited to specific comfort zones (the major), so truly getting students to “explore” is hard and I think some studies have shown that even Brown students tend not explore other disciplines more so than those at schools with stricter gen. ed structures. The absence of a core/gen. eds does not lead to Brown students to the academic exploration it was intended to. The marketing entices many, but the reality may belie all of it, such as the idea that “Most selective universities are great for pre-meds because they have healthcare systems”.
anyone hear about scholarships
@Bernie12 when you discuss the supposed limitations of Brown by saying " it assumes that students have a natural inclination towards wanting to learn at a high level", you display your lack of interaction with actual Brown students. The 1 of 19 applicants that gains an acceptance to Brown is highly motivated, intellectually curious and self motivated. Have you ever spent time at Brown?
Perhaps you are juxtaposing how an Emory student would do with Browns open curriculum? Let’s compare the two schools selection process and perhaps you will have a better sense of who comprises the Brown student body and why your comments are based on misperception.
Emory has roughly 25% more undergraduates (8k vs 6k) then Brown but receives roughly 65% of the applicants (27k vs 38k). Consequently, Emory’s acceptance rate is a multiple of Brown’s 7.2% acceptance rate. Typically Brown had over 2,000 valedictorians apply annually of which approximately 80% rejected. 60%+ yield. I can go on…
Not to diminish Emory but the students are likely different. The typical Brown student is in fact “naturally inclined to learn at a high level”. They have done it their entire academic lives or they wouldn’t have gotten accepted.
The open curriculum ensures that every class is filled with kids that have chosen the course, not forced to attend. The flexibility allows students to take risks and pursue new interests which they actively do. In terms of the quality of teaching Brown consistently is rated by students and guidance counselors to be top 5 nationally, while Forbes, WSJ and Niche all rank Brown in the top 10 overall.
So for you “Brown is an odd school” because students are not “naturally inclined to learn”. You are however misguided when you seek to superimpose your limited perspective across all college students (particularly the most elite of schools). Lazy kids get weeded out by the admissions process at these schools. The kid that gets into Brown does so because they possess the skills, motivations, and work ethic to take full advantage of the open curriculum.
I wouldn’t in the absence of first hand experience comment or seek to diminish the Emory experience, I would respectfully ask you to display the same restraint.
@Nocreativity1 Please note I am critiquing how the Brown model may not work for ME…there is no need to play the intellectual snobbery card. @emorynavy claimed a friend had experienced better teaching and I am explaining how it may be that friends’ fault and how I imagine how Brown’s model could lead to course selection choices that cheat oneself out of the good learning and teaching experiences available. I make no claims about intellectuality at Brown and make a general statement about undergrad tendencies…and sorry, I doubt Brown is special in that regard no matter how many individuals may like to say it is. Brown students experience the same pressures as those at other elite schools. And the freedom afforded in the curriculum also allows for freedom to screw up. Emory students and others at schools with gen. eds manage to do the same, so one can only imagine it as possible with Brown’s model. I am.not hear to claim students at ANY elite or other school are special snowflakes. All these systems have weaknesses.
@Nocreativity1 : I also don’t do the thing where I conflate pre-professionalism and careerism (which is very present at ALL elite privates and even publics) with intellectualism. There are many highly pre-professional schools in the top 10 that are also known for intellectualism. Either way, no school is safe from my criticisms, not even Emory. I just don’t think I should be giving special treatment to any of these places. Part of my critique on the open curriculum comes from the patterns I saw at Emory post-2008 (there were more prescribed gen. eds before then). And believe it or not, Brown’s idea isn’t actually new and there is still a lot of controversy with regards to what undergraduate education should look like, so I am not the only one to think about this and critique it generally. What happened to Emory was that the gen. eds are now kind of “loose” and semi-generic (some gen. eds may be comprised of a 100 or more course options each and the delineations between some are vague), and then like some schools, there are skill-based requirements like first year writing requirements and several continued writing requirements. Loophole is: As many opportunities as there are to explore outside of my major(s) because of these gen. ed requirements, many of the skill-based GERs (particularly the CWR) can be fulfilled within a person’s major, and now this even goes for science majors. This is good and bad depending on the major. I do believe that students should be able to do writing within their discipline, BUT when we talk STEM majors, there may be only 1 or a couple of CWRs in those whereas several other majors may be full of them. Needless to say, the latter group may be able to fulfill this without ever writing outside of their own discipline and many STEM majors would absolutely have to go outside of it (technically a good thing in my book, but the inequality is the problem). So even within this framework, there is plenty of dodging to be done once a student decides: “oh I really want to be able to challenge myself outside of my major, but x,y,z external pressures make that a risky endeavor”.
Note that this was the actual quote:
“but may have limits with regards to learning because it assumes that students have a natural inclination towards wanting to learn at a high level” (perhaps I should rephrase and have said:
"I’m sure students may come in wanting to learn at a high level, but we can’t assume that this desire is not susceptible to corruption and external pressures that will influence their course selection and academic choices)…emphasis is on HIGH LEVEL (specifically) versus the capabilities of the students at each school which is very high at the top 40 or so of schools in USNWR national universities. And I define that by cognitive complexity of the tasks students are willing to take on in school (largely based on Bloom’s Taxonomy:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloom%27s_taxonomy) . Let us face it, it is well-accepted by now that universities run undergraduate entities on more of a “consumer model” and that students are in on it. This partly explains all of the grade inflation at most of our favorite elites, including Emory: http://www.gradeinflation.com/
In addition, many high achievers (no matter the school) tend to be risk averse academically, and why wouldn’t they be given the above data and various post-grad. aspirations (If courses with instructors that mainly demand level 1-3 tend to grant more A’s, I am willing to bet students will flock there and that said instructors are well known) whether it be graduate school, professional school, whatever.
But it also influences curriculum design whereby most schools (especially elites, many which had stringent gen eds or cores) have actually relaxed general education requirements in the 90s and 2000s because what do consumers like: “choice” and “freedom” which may not always result in learning, even among high achievers. That in addition to a pressure to earn high grades in places with plenty of high grades is no doubt going to influence course selection tactics even at the most “intellectual” of schools. What makes Brown odd is: A) only school to have completely open curriculum beyond the major (likewise, Chicago and Columbia are odd for holding on to their cores in some form) and then the fact that despite this, people tend to apparently stay in their comfort zone at Brown. However, this makes sense based upon the story I tell above.
Either way, I can literally talk all day about the problems of undergraduate education or things that make me wonder, especially with regards to “elite” education. Brown, Emory, what selective schools are not impervious to greater forces that affect the nature and tone of undergraduate learning and education and I am not going to pretend that there is some fantasy campus among us where most students’ course selection decisions are governed by a desire to “just learn for learning’s sake” . That sounds so nice, but I’m cynical about that and so are many faculty. With that said, I could still hope that “elite” universities try their best to optimize the chances that students learn at a high level/the right skills whether the students want to or not, because they need to. That needs work at a lot of places. There is indeed a saying from some university administrator back in the day: “An education is the only thing folks are willing to pay for and not get”. Many places make it awfully easy to not really get one and I am not crossing my fingers on : “Well these are high achievers and they totally just wanna learn at a high level and will force themselves to do so”. The choices undergrads make with regards to academic experiences and choices exists in a context that includes way more than a simple desire to learn.
Interestingly, some LACs still have the right idea, but most also have a sky high grade inflation which suggest that they experience similar pressures. The reason they can stick to a broader educational mission in light of some of the pressures is likely mainly due to their size and how smaller size allows for more provocative and challenging pedagogical techniques to be implemented on a larger scale than at medium and large research universities of all calibers.
- I have taken this thread off-course. It is what it is, but you can't get butt-hurt and offended about my opinion of something as basic as the curriculum structure at a school. You and everyone else will be defending themselves from me all day and everyday because no one is freaking safe from me. I get defensive as well, but only when someone demonstrates that they don't understand how something works. In my defense I will usually explain how it actually works. Things like: "Berkeley has more grade deflation than Emory or wherever, for example...or "Is Emory X, Y, Z good in such and such at the undergraduate level", I'll defend Emory if I have the evidence or something to show for my stance. But even then, I'll try to be nuanced and balanced and straight up say: "I can see how this could be a problem at Emory"...no one else likes to self-critique or see their alma maters critiqued in anyway, and I somewhat get that, but I think we should be able to handle it and also be honest.
I notice you also did the “we get more apps and have a low admit rate” thing. That has nothing to do with undergraduate EDUCATION. Is undergraduate education at Vanderbilt and WashU the same because they had similar admissions metrics? Is Vanderbilt now = Harvard academically. Was Chicago worse off academically when it was ranked 18 and had higher admissions rates and lower app. numbers than its peers? That makes no sense to bring an admissions rate into the conversation as a lot of admissions is manufactured and based on historical branding.
@Nocreativity1 But Brown is known as the easy ivy so Noone is surprised, when those claims are actualized. The overall intent of open curriculum is great but the system is easily gamed in an effort to get the highest GPA possible.
My friend had her opinion and I believe her. Doesn’t mean Brown still isn’t of a certain class, but youre trying to make a point that their better than Emory students by comparing yeild rates is confounding two different unrelated point. SAT/Act score are similar between the two schools. Yeild and acceptance rate is a measure of popularity.
@Bernie12 biggest irony… your imbedded inferiority complex caused you to misunderstand Emorynavy’s initial comment Here it is again for your benefit;
“My friend graduated from Brown last year, she took summer classes at Emory and said the teaching was better.”
She/he was complimenting Emory based on a friends anecdotal first hand experience. You either didn’t fully read or understand the comment (no “intellectual snobbery” as you put it intended), just fact.
You then proceeded to respond to your misinterpretation, by going on a speculative rant, having had no first hand experience with Brown.
You then stated…“you can’t get butt-hurt and offended about my opinion of something as basic as the curriculum structure at a school.”. I am not as you so eloquently say “butt hurt”. I am however highlighting that the basis for you opinion is flawed. You speculate with no first hand experience that Brown students lack the intellectual curiosity and ambition to self regulate themselves in a rigorous manner. That may be the case in your experience but not in mine specifically to Brown or other super elite schools. I am not saying Emory students aren’t similarly driven…you are.
Just as a last aside you don’t ever hear Ivy parents or kids when their schools are criticized, responding with a theme of at least they are better then Emory. Not because Emory isn’t worthy (once again it’s an outstanding school) of such comparison, but because with confidence one doesn’t have to diminish others to feel good about one self.
@bernie12
@Nocreativity1 That’s enough guys. No more ranting in the thread!!! DM each other, if need be.
This is an Emory Class of 2023 thread. Why has this turned into Emory VS Brown? No wonder so few students actually come to this thread to post. This discussion doesn’t belong here.
@Emorynavy “The overall intent of open curriculum is great but the system is easily gamed in an effort to get the highest GPA”
The higher GPAs at Brown aren’t a function of gaming (note Brown’s avg GPAs are currently only marginally higher than Harvard, Yale, Dartmouth, etc) but by more engaged students. If you aren’t forced to take classes of little interest you will typically do better. If you can take a class pass fail you will reach outside your comfort zone. If every kid taking the class has chosen to be in there more team work takes place and grades may improve.
This isn’t gaming the system, it is learning, which it what college is about. The “easy” Ivy suggests a lack of rigor. The reality is the kids work just as hard but with little risk of failure in areas of study they are extremely interesting to them. This allows them to both get good grades and be happy.
That in turn why the school is as you describe it “popular”. That popularity in turn allows the school to attract a student body that takes advantage of the flexibility of the open curriculum.
Good luck to all of you that plan on attending Emory. Fantastic and prestigious school.
MODERATOR’S NOTE: As @collegemom9 points out, this is not the thread for a discussion of Brown. Please get back on track. Note that this is an instruction, not a suggestion
Not sure I agree that ED only helps marginally at Emory. It helps a great deal and that more relates to quality of the pools. The RD round is uber competitive with, unfortunately, many choosing Emory as part of a backup to more elite schools such as Duke, Ivy schools, or similar. I’m not suggesting that those enrolled under ED pools can’t compete at the highest level with kids with stronger applications, because anyone admitted to Emory has the ability to perform at a high level. It’s what you do when you get there.
Congratulations to Emory on achieving a top 10 ranking on Forbes "“Top 25 Colleges of the South” list.
- Duke University
- Rice University
- Vanderbilt University
- University of Virginia
- Washington and Lee University
- Davidson College
- College of William & Mary
- University of North Carolina – Chapel Hill
- Emory University
- Wake Forest University
All amazing school’s proving just how many diverse and outstanding college options exist beyond the traditional northeast school’s. Something for everyone and a better climate!