EOP/HEOP, and other Opportunity Programs

Applying to College
1

<p>I see a lot of affirmative action threads being made, and subsequently being closed. So there is a lot of discussion on affirmative action based on race, but what about opportunity programs based on income?</p>

<p>Specifically, the EOP/HEOP program in New York is an interesting program because it aims at students who meet low income requirements and are considered "inadmissible" through regular admission standards. Basically, your grades and SAT scores cannot be too high if you want to participate in this program; regardless of how low your income is. If you get accepted into the HEOP program, you are given a full ride + tutors to the schools that participate (which include Cornell, Columbia, Barnard); despite the fact that you have to be considered inadmissible to these schools to even qualify for the program. </p>

<p>Introduction</a> to HEOP
This is the HEOP website where you can find the statistics.</p>

<p>
[Quote]
…on average, over 75 percent of HEOP students are Black or Hispanic</p>

<p>…66 percent of HEOP students scored below 1000 on their SATs

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I personally feel that the program caters to the wrong type of student. Why should someone who is considered to be inadmissible by regular standards have the upper hand in admissions, as well as a full ride to very good private schools? If anything, it should be aimed at low income, high achieving students; who are, instead, excluded from these programs because of their MERIT. In addition, it provides an incentive to low income students to not try their best for the best grades, or the best SAT scores that they can get.</p>

<p>What do you guys think?</p>

2

<p>Actually, Columbia and Barnard take in less than 25 students per year in to their HEOP programs (Cornell takes in a few more due to the land grant colleges) college whose pockets are not as deep take in between 10-20 and those students are from a cross section of students. The overwhelming majority of HEOP students attend SUNY.</p>

<p>At the school where I work at, the overwhelming majority of HEOP students at these 2 schools are neither black or hispanic.</p>

<p>The income thresholds for HEOP are as follows:</p>

<p>1 family member $14,100 </p>

<p>2 family members $19,600 </p>

<p>3 family members $22,350 </p>

<p>4 family members $27,800 </p>

<p>5 family members $32,850 </p>

<p>6 family members $38,550 </p>

<p>7 family members $42,900 </p>

<p>8 family members $47,250 </p>

<p>9 family members $51,600 </p>

<p>10 family members $55,950 </p>

<p>For Barnard, only the Critial Reading score can be 620 or below. Minimun GPA is an 85 (In over 15 years that I have been working with low income students, I have not seen anyone admitted with the minimum requirements yet). While there is a bit of a break on the critical reading, there is really not a break when it comes to GPA.</p>

<p>The HEOP program at Barnard & Cornell both include loans (stafford and Perkins) which must be repaid in addition to workstudy so there is no free ride.</p>

3

<p>I would like to see more discussion of programs like this, so thanks for opening the thread.</p>

4

<p>The most I know anyone has to pay for school through HEOP is 2k, for work-study; but thanks for clearing that up. You make good points that these elite universities only take a few students; I was simply illustrating that the program includes such elite schools. But there are a lot of schools which participate in this program (EOP/HEOP), which aren't Columbia/Cornell-status. </p>

<p>Thank you for contributing info about the top schools. But this discussion is also aimed at private schools such as Fordham, or SUNY's like Stony Brook or Binghamton; I have seen lucky classmates who have gotten in through HEOP/EOP while their financially challenged peers (who did not meet the academic requirements for EOP because their GPA's and SAT scores were too high) end up getting rejected or waitlisted. </p>

<p>Personally, I wasn't qualified for the program because my grades were too high (top 10% rank, high SATs scores). After financial aid packages from my schools came back, I discovered I had to pay MORE for SUNY's than my friends would (who had gotten in through EOP with much lower scores). If that's not a huge slap in the face for doing well in school, then I don't know what is.</p>

5

<p>
[quote]
Personally, I wasn't qualified for the program because my grades were too high (top 10% rank, high SATs scores).

[/quote]
</p>

<ol>
<li>Definitely not true, while you may have been out side of the CR score guideline, or you may have been outside of the economic threshold (2 factors where there is no wiggle room) but I can unequivocally say you did not get rejected for the fact that your grades were too high .<br></li>
</ol>

<p>I have seen a lot of HEOP candiates (GC here) and I can also tell you that accepted candidates tend to be more at the higher end of the spectrum (especially grades) as far as HEOP admissions standards are concerned (I work at a NYC public high school with title I funds and a full bilingual chinese & esl program and can tell you first hand that many of the top ranked students at my high school has near perfect math scores and some are breathing on the CR guidelines (others not so much because english is not their first language), was accepted to Stonybrook/Bing/Fordham/NYU and there are definitely loans in the package). </p>

<p>2.At SUNY schools, they insure that there is no gap in the HEOP FA packages perhaps adding ~2k in grant aid from the school.</p>

<p>3.As you also know HEOP admissions are also a holistic process where your essays, and recs do matter. I had a student accepted last year to a HEOP program who wrote one of the best essays I have ever read (and goodness knows I have read thousands of bad/lackluster/I really don't want to know this person essays).</p>

6

<ol>
<li>Ah, by grades, I meant = GPA + standardized scores. If the limit on CR is true, then that must be why I wasn't accepted. In terms of GPA, there are people who are in the top 1% of ranking at my school who qualified for HEOP. So there isn't a limit on GPA, but there is a limit on CR/SAT scores? </li>
</ol>

<p>You are right about the loans in the package; I wish I could edit that in the OP to say that. However, I must say there is substantial amount of aid received from the schools. I also wasn't aware about the financial aid at SUNY's, interesting.</p>

<p>I noticed you're mentioning HEOP a lot, but what about EOP (which the SUNY's participate in)? Do you know if the guidelines are different?</p>

<p>It's actually really great to have this information; my counselor told several of my classmates not to bother applying for such programs because their grades and ranking (not SAT scores) were too high. I'm headed to school right now, but thanks clearing some things up.</p>

7

<p>My older brother and sister both got went to colleges in the HEOP/EOP program.
My brother went to NYU and my sister Cornell. I can attest to the fact that HEOP/EOP standards are different depending on the school. Schools such as NYU and Cornell have more stringent standards than other schools. HEOP/EOP is not a program that only accepts below par students. My brother graduated in the top 10% of his class. He got a full scholarship package to URochester but he still decided to go NYU. My sister was also a great student and got great aid packages and was accepted to great schools. However, they both looked at the benefits HEOP gives its students. They knew they wanted to go to grad school and HEOP/EOP graduates are eligible to receive on free Master/or professional degree as long as they go to school in the SUNY system. My brother went to SUNY Stonybrook Medical School in the MD/MPH program and now he works at Yale New Haven Hospital. My sister enrolled SUNY Downstate Medical in the MD/PhD program 3 yrs ago.
This program in for those who want to succeed but don't have the financial means to go to school. Believe me a lot of kids don't know how lucky there are that they don't have to worry about $$ for school. I know a lot of people (friends, cousins, etc) who are in this program and they are happy. HEOP/EOP helps the financially strapped but does not give free tickets to the academically unprepared.</p>

8

<p>
[quote]
So there isn't a limit on GPA, but there is a limit on CR/SAT scores?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Right!! the income and CR information is very specific and as wow mentioned varies from school to school where the more elite schools the student may end up falling not far off from the low end of the middle 50 as far as CR is concerned but academically their scores GPAs are probably right there with their other classmates.</p>

<p>wow,</p>

<p>Great post.. Thanks!!</p>

<p>Like the privates, admissions guidelines for SUNY vary from school to school.
The SUNY schools not only look at the CR scores they also take into consideration regents scores. While a student may not have great CR scores, they could have great regents scores especially in English, Global and US History.</p>

<p>Here is the SUNY Admissions InformationSummary – 2007</p>

<p><a href="http://www.suny.edu/student/downloads/Pdf/2007_Admissions_QF_StateOp.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.suny.edu/student/downloads/Pdf/2007_Admissions_QF_StateOp.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Whether a student is accepted through HEOP/EOP wow is right in saying that they are not taking students that are not academically prepared (you must remember SAT scores are only a small part of the equation and GPA will hold more weight).</p>

9

<p>This post wasn't meant to insult students who got into through the HEOP (as I mentioned, top 1% ranked students got in through HEOP at my school). Which is why I put the word "inadmissible" in quotes (because it is how some schools, which participate in the program, describe its students). </p>

<p>I'm not disagreeing with wow2012; I do think that students who don't have the financial means to go to a great college should receive aid for their education. Students from middle-high class background have a huge advantage if their parents are willing to pay for their education. I'm interested in low income students competing against other low income students. </p>

<p>Hypothetical situation: Two low income students from different high schools have identical high GPA's, same high ranking, both have good EC's, same awards, etc. Let says one gets a 1250 and the other, a 1500. The one with the 1500 isn't going to qualify for HEOP, and will be competing for admission vs regular applicants. Obviously other factors like recommendations will come into play, but HEOP is a major advantage in admissions. </p>

<p>My question is: Why is it that there is a limit on the Critical Reading/SAT score, but not on GPA? IMO the SAT is a lot more trivial than GPA, and shows much less about a person's ability to perform than a 4 hour exam.</p>

10

<p>
[quote]
Two low income students from different high schools have identical high GPA's, same high ranking, both have good EC's, same awards, etc.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Not going to happen as college admissions will take into consideration that the HEOP student coming from Stuyvesant (yes, Stuyvesant) with the same GPA will be a different student from Samuel Gompers high school in the bronx. However, students are still evaluated in context to their environment.
HEOP is not a major advantage in admissions as you see you self, most colleges in the SUNY system are hardpressed to take in 100 students from the entire state through the entire cycle and as I said in my previous post most private colleges take way less than that. When you take into consideration the number of students from NYS applying to college (NYC has a over hundred thousand alone) actually getting HEOP is probably more competitive than getting in to an elite school because there is not enough space or $$ to fund every worthy student.</p>

<p>
[quote]
My question is: Why is it that there is a limit on the Critical Reading/SAT score, but not on GPA? IMO the SAT is a lot more trivial than GPA, and shows much less about a person's ability to perform than a 4 hour exam.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>The GPA is an indication of performance over a sustained period time (3 to 3.5 years) and actually shows more about a person's ability to perform than a 4 hour exam which is why even in elite admissions, GPA is given more weight than SAT scores.</p>

11

<p>Yeah, I agree that GPA should be given more weight; perhaps I phrased my point poorly.. So why is it that the limiting factor in this equation is an ancillary statistic?</p>

12

<p>Bump.10char</p>

13

<p><a href="http://www.highered.nysed.gov/kiap/pdf/HEOPWebBrochure2008.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.highered.nysed.gov/kiap/pdf/HEOPWebBrochure2008.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>
[quote]
Who is Eligible?</p>

<p>To be eligible for HEOP you must meet all of the following conditions. You must:
3. Be educationally disadvantaged. An educationally disadvantaged student is a student who otherwise would not be accepted as a matriculated student under the institution's normal admissions standards in the degree program for which application is made. ** At open admissions institutions, an educationally disadvantaged student must meet one of the following criteria:
.....
.....
.....
d)Meet other acceptable academic criteria, **which differentiate the HEOP student from regularly admitted students (e.g.lower test scores, lower GED scores).

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Notice it doesn't say anything about GPA. </p>

<p>Cornell</a> University Office of Minority Educational Affairs</p>

<p>Cornell's policy</p>

<p>
[quote]
To be considered for EOP/HEOP, applicant must:</p>

<ol>
<li>Be high school graduate or possess a State-approved high school equivalency diploma (GED).</li>
<li>Be a New York State resident or permanent resident alien residing in New York State.</li>
<li>Meet the academic criteria for the college the student has applied to and demonstrate a potential for successful completion of a bachelor’s degree.
** 4. Be inadmissible under regular admission.**</li>
<li>Meet the economic guidelines (listed below) determined by the New York State Education Department.

[/quote]
</li>
</ol>

<p>So it's clear that HEOP applicants are held to a lower standard. But that standard is NOT GPA (which is more indicative about a person's work ethic and potential), but rather a test which is composed of three elementary sections taken over 4 hours. Nobody else finds this absolutely absurd?</p>

14

<p>Program</a> Offers Free Tuition To Disadvantaged | Columbia Spectator</p>

<p>
[quote]
Bill Short, president of the New York State HEOP Professional Organization, said by e-mail that the purpose of having a maximum SAT score is to find the students whose finances interfered with their ability to succeed. "The difference comes down to which student had access to better prep, and were therefore [at an] educational disadvantage."

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I think he might advantage and student*s*.</p>

<p>Or simply be more keen at taking tests. An SAT prep book is $13 online, $20 at Barnes and Noble. Although the article does mention that less than 5% of HEOP applicants make it, but that's beside the point.</p>

15

<p>I have a little problem here. I applied EOP program when I was doing my cornell application, but then I realized it was something different than I thought. Because of my family financial problem, I thought if I applied EOP program, I can have free tuition. But then it says EOP gives students who have the ability for academic success, but not the requirements for regular admission, the chance to attend Cornell University, which sounds completely different in my case. I think I definitely have the ability to go for regular admission with all my test grades and GPA, but the reason I am going for it is for financial reason, so should I still apply for EOP? or I should apply for regular admission. I am so confused right now. Who is eligible for applying EOP? with only low income or low grades and low income?</p>

16

<p>Yes, I Understand That This Program May Seem Offensive To Some, But Schools That Participate In The Program Don't Just Allow Any Student That Applies In. Cornell For Instance Still Requires Quite Challenging Criteria, Up To 700 On Math And Reading SAT's And 95% Unweighted GPA, The Key Is Rather Income. I Am A Student That Has The Edge And Spark To Learn, But I Lack The Funds, Seriously. (Our Annual Household Income Last Year Was 3,000 Dollars....Let Me Say That Again 3,000 Dollars). This Program Is A God Send To The Students That Need It, Such As Myself. In My Case It Would Be Absurd Not To Apply.</p>

17

<p>Excuse my vulgarity, but I would just like to say that the person above me is pulling **** out of their ***. </p>

<p>How do I know? Just like the person above me, I applied HEOP to Cornell. I've done plenty of research on this program coupled with the occasional phone call to the state programs office.</p>

<p>But</p>

<p>First a few things:
This link Introduction</a> to HEOP should be burned and lost forever. It is so ridiculously misleading that I don't understand how people take the time to read it. They COMBINE the admissions statistics for ALL NEW YORK SCHOOLS!!!! ALL NEW YORK SCHOOLS ARE ABSOLUTELY DIFFERENT </p>

<p>So basically that report does talk about schools like Cornell University, Columbia University, NYU and so forth BUT it also includes schools that have much lower admissions standards such as NYIT or City College that have 1400s combined SAT as REGULAR admissions.</p>

<p>YOU CAN'T COMPARE OR COMBINE CUNY: YORK COLLEGE WITH CORNELL UNIVERSITY!!!!!!!</p>

<p>Now for facts you actually want to hear:</p>

<p>Let's take, for example, a student who applied HEOP to Cornell University and was accepted via HEOP:</p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/cornell-university/317003-cornell-rd-decisions-class-2011-a-39.html#post3887929%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/cornell-university/317003-cornell-rd-decisions-class-2011-a-39.html#post3887929&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>


</p>

<p>As you can see. She has no 700, but a high rank, a hard courseload, a good essay topic, and low SAT and SAT II's scores by Cornell Standards. She was rejected, but the state programs office kicked in and said "she has potential, let's take her into the summer course and see what she can do." </p>

<p>WHICH IS WHAT THEY DO!</p>

<p>If you are rejected by the school, they send your application to H/EOP office and they give it a look. If they accept you based on economic standards and college potential, you must take the summer course and pass all the classes. Once that is completed, you become an ordinary student, with more resources (tutors, counselors... etc).</p>

<p>Remember though, schools can only take a very small amount for H/EOP. Cornell University takes anywhere from 50 to 60 students per year. I only know mostly about Cornell because it is my school of interest.</p>

<p>However, DO NOT try and sugar coat it like the person above me. You do get a ridiculous advantage in the admissions process through H/EOP no matter how you look at it. the thing is, you shouldn't "want" to be a part of H/EOP. It is something unfortunate that some of us have to do because we are disadvantaged. I would love to be rich and have a million resources to my disposal, but unfortunately that isn't the case, thank goodness for H/EOP!</p>

<p>If anyone has anymore questions, please do not hesitate to ask, or if you feel I'm wrong about something please point it out. We as a community should get together and unravel the mystery that is H/EOP.</p>

18

<p>ok… You seem like you know what your talking about right. In my case my parents make just above the income requirements to be elgible for EOP at Binghamton. At this moment though they are both unemplyed so the 2009 income will be lower, but I would like to apply early. I dont know if i should wait for the 2009 taxes or just do regular decision. With Binghamton’s regular admission, my chancesare greatly lessened for getting in, butif I apply EOP I have more of chance since its higher on that scale</p>

19

<p>To be “really” eligible for H/EOP, you must have used full fee-waivers for you SAT exams. That’s all I know.
Let’s see
My Stats:
GPA:97
Combined SAT: 1680
used full fee waivers for SAT
IVYs applying to: Columbia, Yale, Cornell
In addition: applying to Johns Hopkins Univ, NYU, SUNYS and CUNYS
Here is the question: will I be accepted into any of these school? Please, specify the school.</p>

20

<p>im curently a senior and i didnt have the best junior year i had a lot going on in my life at the time emotionaly and mentaly. So i lterly dont have a gpa for my junior year beace i didnt pass to many claseses, however i scored a 1690 on the sat with my math being 560 and the same for critical reading. i also took the sat subject test and recieve 710 on the math 2, 690 on litterature, and 750 in biology m. I feel that it is rediculous that they lower the standards for test scores when a test only proves you kno that subject and it doesnt prove any work ethic, and with a gpa one year will cost you so much my gpa droped from a 3.0 to a 2.0 and now in my senior year i have a 3.4 and im taking 5 AP courses. I feel that HEOP makes some feel that if they work hard in average classes and do avg on the sat they have a good shot in a great school. Mean while i may get looked over for one year i messed up.</p>