<p>cpt, I should clarify that my son did have someone look over his stuff and offer minor suggestions. But not original ideas, whole sentences, paragraphs, etc. If he had, the essays would have been MUCH better, I'm sure. What the colleges got was my son, take it or leave it. His work was indicative of what they would be seeing if he went to their school.</p>
<p>Calmom:</p>
<p>I'm not even going to read the rest of your post. You seem to imply that a parent typing up name, DOB, SSN, address is in the same league as typing in misleading info.
If you can't see the difference, I give up.
I addressed and stamped the envelopes for my kid's applications. I came on CC to ask how to use Adobe Acrobat so he could fill out his application online.<br>
Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. I'm a bad mother, There.</p>
<p>calcom, a couple of quick comments on your post above ---</p>
<p>First -- you made me feel better! I no longer feel so badly about my long post earlier. You win! :)</p>
<p>Second -- </p>
<p>
[Quote]
I am saying this because there is a rationalization involved: it is ok to do X because X is a simple, unimportant task -- but it is not ok to do Y because Y is a different type of task. The problem is that different people are going to rationalize differently and come to different conclusions.
[/Quote]
</p>
<p>Welcome to the real world. While you may right, this is endemic to life, and has been going on since man was first created or crawled out of the ooze. It's what separates us from an Orwellian "1984" and is the result of God's decision to grant us free will. It will NEVER change (hopefully).</p>
<p>Third -- </p>
<p>Many of your examples in filling out application forms are good -- but not necessarily germane based on talks I've had several admissions counselors (one a friend) in the past. Regarding just one -- the "importance of ECs" they said they were looking for what was important to the student, what did THEY think was most significant because it helps paint a picture of the student's interests and priorities.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Not completely but mostly.</p>
<p>My H wasn't one of the helicopter dads and my S is a kid who likes to build rockets and models so his car was definitely his car. When he was a Tiger it showed. By the time he was just about to bridge to Boy Scouts, his car could hold its own easily.</p>
<p>I do recall running w/ S to the post office to use their scale for weight tests.</p>
<p>conyat, nice quote</p>
<p>
[Quote]
She made a lot of friends up there, which is one of the reasons that it bothers me when I see people speculate about them without knowing them.
[/Quote]
</p>
<p>Precisely! Well said! This is what particularly upset me about earlier posts on this thread. There were people willing to castigate a kid and family without really knowing the whole story. It's rather like trying to do brain surgery when the surgeon has macular degeneration (half blind).</p>
<p>Marite, I dont put name and SS# in the same league as writing essays, which I was talking about. I personally know of two kids at my sons school who had someone else write their essays (they told my son). </p>
<p>I dont doubt that kids who are packaged have just as much to offer as kids who arent. But the difference is, the kids who are packaged tend to win more often. Kids who arent tend to go to the state public honors college, like clover said. </p>
<p>Its like crossing the 1400 SAT benchmark. Is there a significant difference between the kids who get 1400 and 1500? Who knows? My son crossed 1400 and quit there. Perhaps with another $1000 he would have crossed 1500. My hope is that the people who make the decisions can take that into consideration. But they dont know, so how can they? I would like to think that an admissions officer would put the 1430 candidate into roughly the same league as the 1500 candidate for that very reason.</p>
<p>ALL the kids who are up there in the highest echelons of high school achievement deserve a spot at the best colleges and universities.</p>
<p>643</p>
<p>cptofthehouse, that certainly was an eye-opening post (#514). I had no idea... and that takes it to a whole new level. We simply have nothing like that in California. On an individual level, yes: fueled and funded by parents -- but nothing going on like that within a public school or the school system.</p>
<p>Doubleplay, my son was foolish enough to write some of his essays in the little on line box and push the send button as soon as he finished the app. You do get the whole spectrum of kids. Though his essays were poorly written in many respects, and I do not recommend this to anyone, in fact, I think S was truly foolish, to put it nicely, to do this, he did get a favorable comment from an adcom on the essay, one that any GC or parent in the know would have deemed a bit inappropriate for a college app. Something about the essence of the student is lost with the editing. I am hoping that the SAT essay portion brings that back. For my kid there would not have been much contrast between his app essay and that one. For some kids....whew.</p>
<p>I can see both sides of the issue for parents who do the kind of cutting and pasting thing that was described in the original article, or who monitor deadlines and stuff. Part of me thinks it's probably a sign that S. or D. is either applying to too many colleges, or isn't that enthusiastic about some of the colleges on the list. </p>
<p>OTOH, many (but not all) gifted kids have a marked tendancy toward disorganization. Well, many kids do, period, but there is a higher preponderance among gifted students then students in general. So I feel for the parent of the child who might be otherwise qualified, but has trouble with the mechanics of the process because he or she can't quite get it together. Not sure what happens when the children leave home, but one hopes that they've been taught other ways to adapt. A lot of kids at all parts of the spectrum function better at school than home in weak areas, partly because home is the place where you can relax.</p>
<p>Cpt, mine did similar things much to my aggravation. But you know what, they’ve got to learn sometime. Mistakes like that are probably more worthwhile in the long run.</p>
<p>643</p>
<p>I don't see anything unfair about these things. Not everyone has the same opportunities. </p>
<p>Someone posted that the winners of these science contests do not represent the best and brightest science students in the country. I don't think anyone said that they do. They represent the top kids WHO ENTERED the contest. There are many other brilliant science kids who didn't enter. Seems obvious enough to me. I don't think anyone can argue these winners are "better" or "best", only that they achieved very highly in something they entered amongst all those who had the opportunity to enter, the availabiility or resources or mentors or who even heard of the contest in the first place. Like many things, only kids from certain schools or areas may have even been exposed to this contest. I mentioned somewhere here, that I had never heard of it until I read about it on CC and nobody here has heard of it or entered it. I recall in fall of senior year, my D's guidance counselor passing on a mailing he got about it to my D as she was the top math and science student in the school (the head of the science dept. had written she was the best in her 25 years of teaching in science) and I laughed as I had by that time read mention of it on CC and what seems to be involved over a long period of time and there is no way some kid is gonna read some letter in fall of senior year and just be able to enter this! But I don't have ANY bad feelings that some know about it, get help, whatever, and excel in this competition. I don't care about it whatsoever and I congratulate the kids who fared well who ENTERED. They are pretty darn good science students and nobody ever said they were the best of all the science kids in the country but that they simply won THIS contest. I don' t know why anyone is even arguing "they aren't the best". Who said they were? Is Miss America the prettiest young lady (or whatever the criteria is in that contest) in the country or just the best of those who entered? Does anyone where I live enter pageants? Never. They ain't all ugly either :).</p>
<p>I mentioned on some thread that I learned of a well known National Arts competition....where? on CC! I never would have heard of it otherwise. My kids are very involved in the arts. I told my youngest about it, as she was going to pursue a college degree in the performing arts. We found the website, and she entered (by audition) and won an award in her category (that went to top 10% in the country) but I noticed that she was the only winner from our state in any of the 12-13 arts categories of this competition in which about 6500 seniors had entered (she entered as a junior as she was graduating a year early). Other states had a slew of winners. Certain schools, particularly performing arts schools, had many winners. I believe they were coached at school to enter this competition. We don't even have any performing arts high schools in our entire state. Nobody here has heard of this contest. I don't even think her school knows she won. Now, her colleges know she won because the winners' names get sent out to all the college programs and is a well known award that they would have heard of. But she could have just as easily not won had I not heard of this competition on CC and so there are many kids like her in the country who have never won one of these national arts awards but who have gotten into the highly competitive college programs such as the one she attends. It is just what it is. Not everyone has heard of these things, or has the opportunities to try for them. </p>
<p>On a much more minor scale, my daughter excels as a writer. She has a gift that way even though her chosen career is musical theater. When she was in seventh grade, I happened to see a TV commercial for a state wide writing contest. Never heard of it through school but apparently at other schools, the teachers worked on it in class and entered many students. My kid just entered on her own. She won first place in the state for her grade. The winners were in a televised program. They were supposed to bring their English teacher who also got recognition. My D's teacher couldn't make the telecast but it is ironic that she'd be recognized as my D entered totally on her own from home. School had nothing to do with it. Look at all the great writers out there who would not have a mentor and would not ever hear of such competitions. It just is what it is. Life is not an equal opportunity employer. </p>
<p>Some of this is the same in sports. My daughter is a ski racer. Once you get to high school, if you are going to have any chance to be highly competitive, you HAVE to attend a ski academy for high school (if you thought college was expensive, you should see private ski academy boarding schools plus the cost of training trips, etc.) My D did not attend a ski academy though continued to race on the same circuit as those who did (and while she was very competitive with them up until high school, they then surpassed her as they were training full time seven days per week). She raced on the HS varsity circuit and did very well in our competitive state but those kids did not go to ski academies for HS. She was never recruited for college. But ya know, she is on the varsity team at her college, amongst mainly ski academy trained kids and she is faring very well regionally and did well in Nationals. But there is no way she had the same training or opportunities that those who attend very expensive academies. We ain't complainin. It just is. </p>
<p>I have a kid who got into a top program in her field for college that had a 6% admit rate. She was competing against many who attended performing arts high schools, etc. She comes from a rural public high school where there has rarely been anyone who has applied or gone to these elite BFA programs. She did just fine with many acceptances. But obviously some kids had way more opportunities where they live. We don't even have drama classes at our high school. Ya just have to learn to accept that. And there is some talented kid in japip (spelling?) who doesn't have supportive parents, doesn't have any local opportunities, isn't aware of this or that to enter. </p>
<p>Behind every Olympian, every talented musician, every science competition winner, there are supportive families, opportunities for training, mentors, and so on. Some have way more advantages than others. Winners or others of note have exceled but it doesn't mean that everyone who had talent entered the "contest" or that everyone had access to what is needed to enter in the first place. Still, it doesn't take from the winners. Most who achieve at a high level may have the support behind them but they usually have the talent and drive, as well, to excel at that level.</p>
<p>These are the official Pinewood Derby rules:</p>
<p>"All cars must pass the following inspection to qualify for the race: </p>
<p>Width shall not exceed 2-1/4 inches. </p>
<p>Length shall not exceed 7 inches. </p>
<p>Weight shall not exceed 5 ounces. </p>
<p>Axles, wheels, and body shall be from the materials provided in the kit. </p>
<p>Wheel bearings, washers, and bushings are prohibited. </p>
<p>No lubricating oil may be used. Axles may be lubricated with powdered graphite or silicone. </p>
<p>The car shall not ride on any kind of spring. </p>
<p>The car must be free-wheeling, with no starting devices </p>
<p>No loose materials of any kind are allowed in the car."</p>
<p>Now, I think the Pinewood Derby is one of the most All-American institutions around. It is ASSUMED that dads (or moms) will help. Who would let their seven year old operate a power saw without supervision, afterall? You can also choose to use handtools, or whittle. Either way, supervision is needed. It is the process of designing and creating the car that is the point. There are prizes for fastest, coolest, most unique, etc. It's a crazy competition with the emphasis on FUN! Kids who want to learn about aerodynamics can do so. Kids who just want a colorful car with a Sponge Bob character driving can do so.</p>
<p>Anyone who would leave scouts because they didn't like a few overzealous parents missed the whole point, I'm afraid. It's a great way to expose kids to the Right way to go about life and the Wrong way.</p>
<p>I think the line in the sand is where the picture presented in the application is not indicative of the actual applicant. If a school is looking for downhill skiers, they’re going to look at how fast you ski. If they want a good piano player, they’re going to listen to how good you play. Doesn’t matter how the applicants were prepared. It’s based on how they perform. Now, if a school is looking for a good writer, and I get my neighbor to write my sons essays, that school is not basing their decision on reality, and isn’t getting who they think they are.</p>
<p>Case in point, I have a friend who I believe is misguided and not doing her daughter any favors. Throughout hs she was overinvolved in everything. She argued about grades, picked easy classes and teachers, helped prepare her d for every test, practically wrote big papers, did in fact write a few college essays, and the biggest whopper of all, she carried out a behind-the-scenes HUGE service project which won multiple awards and attributed it to her daughter. Her d ended up getting into an exceptional LAC despite SATs that were hundreds of points below the average, due to the rest of her “package.” Now mom is getting phone calls from d about how hard it is, how much she's studying and not getting good grades, etc.</p>
<p>643</p>
<p>Sticker, Yeah, I suppose. Its just that I walked in on my H busy at the workbench with my S just standing there staring into space, bored out of his mind. Im not bashing scouts or anything, it just wasnt a good fit for our kids.</p>
<p>643</p>
<p>I admit to typing the info into the application for both my kids, as we used a typewriter to allow for greater flexibility in utilizing available space. I did it because they had no experience with a typewriter, it saved them time, and I'm just better at making things look neat. (essay's were done on the computer word processor).
HOWEVER:
I made NO decisions about any content whatsoever, eg. the order and wording of ec's, the order of scores, or anything whatsoever. For EACH Ap, they filled out a practice one by hand, telling me EXACTLY what to put. If in doubt about the slightest thing, I conferred with them. I functioned as a secretary in the purest sense. And I'm happy to say I did a great job!</p>
<p>P.S. Marite, I absolutely loved this line: "With all due respect, an awful lot of totally disparate things are jumbled together and given the same valence in this paragraph."
That's what people do when they are more interested in winning an argument than in exploring something in an open minded way.</p>
<p>Boy Scouts are run so much differently than Cub Scouts. They tend to be boy-led where the ASMs and Scoutmaster are there for guidance.</p>
<p>I saw this in Girl Scouts as well. Once it's a Cadettes or Seniors (7th grade and up) troop, the leaders take a step back and let the girls run things.</p>
<p>Motherdear, I know this is a total tangent, but as someone who seems to know about scouting in the older age bracket, why do you think the Girl Scout Gold Award (or whatever it's called) is relatively unknown to non-Scouts compared to the Eagle Scout? (Not to minimize either accomplishment, I've just always wondered).</p>
<p>Poor PR? My daughter was always frustrated by having to explain the Gold Award to people as being the highest award in Girl Scouting. I think part of the problem is that it has been renamed several times over the years by GSUSA although it's been called the Gold Award since the early '80s.</p>
<p>I do know that college admissions know and recognize the term Gold Award when on an application. My D earned her Gold Award during her rising sophomore summer. Because she earned it early, she was able to include that on several applications to different relatively selective programs. I don't think she would have been a Congressional Page if she hadn't received her Gold Award.</p>
<p>We are lucky to live in a pro-Scouting area for both girls and boys. The troops are large and well-run and there are so many that you are sure to find one that fits your personality.</p>
<p>So here's a thought. Calmom, since we've been on the board together for a while, I've seen a pattern in your posts, just as you've probably seen one in mine. You clearly decided that the best parenting is kind of like a mother lion, wean those kids and give them a little nip if they come back. And you think that's best for your kids. Some other moms, well, they have decided that the best kind of parenting is chimp parenting, let them cling to your chest until they can swing all by themselves. Lion moms think the great danger is lack of independance. Chimp moms think the greatest danger is falling out of the tree:).</p>
<p>Which is best? Who the heck knows? Pick your species and go for it. College apps are just one instantiation of the species choice.</p>
<p>I just think that Marite (post # 502) has the most reasonable, sensible approach to all of this. Calmom, I appreciate your reasons, but I feel that you are a little extreme in your point of view. How many of you think that admissions people parse every element of the application -- middle name vs middle initial, order of ECs listed etc? From what I've read, they frequently transcribe all data to a little card and read the essays and recs. I actually think that experienced admissions people are pretty good at spotting the "packaged" kid, to that student's detriment. But I think the facts of the admissions process are such that the kids who just type and press "send" -- without any input or proofreading -- are at a disadvantage. But that's who they are, and I'm sure that most kids are happy wherever they end up. </p>
<p>I don't have transfer stats at hand, but don't most kids stay where they matriculate? If they are truly in a school where their abilities are weak, they'll either transfer, change majors or flunk out. I still think it all comes out in the wash.</p>
<p>Finally, to some extent, this seems like polishing the cannonball to me. My son is at a wonderful college, and seems very happy. But I'm not convinced that he would be any less happy at my public alma mater. Just think of all the threads about the value of an "elite" education. There are enough studies that dispute the value of the Ivy name, that this level of concern seems overwrought to me. Given a choice, I'd rather see my kids at a more selective school -- but it's just not the end of the world if they end up somewhere else. As long as they eventually become self-supporting!</p>