Family Gets Lesson in Admissions

Parents Forum
541

<p>OK, sanity check- hear me out.
Let’s say you want to go to a selective school that accepts 25% of applicants. Gradewise and scorewise, you’re in the 70%. EC-wise you’re very competitive so it’s gonna hing on your essay, recs, and other subjectives. And let’s say you DON’T get in and let’s also say that somehow you find out that you were very, veeeerrrry close. Now let’s say that you know that out of the 2000 students who got accepted, there were probably up to 5% who had been “packaged”, handled, whatever you want to call it. Their parents did their essays. Or they had bogus community service awards that they didn’t deserve. Or they had been nominated to prestigious positions because of their parent’s position within the community, or their money. Or they get awards for projects that were basically directed by others and they only did a portion of the work on. Now you’re going to be really P****D about it. That’s what I’m talking about. Yeah, you can tell yourself that it’ll all come out in the wash. But that’s not consolation for the fact that YOU didn’t get in and someone else did who used bogus means to get there. </p>

<p>Personally I would prefer that my kids go to a school where they’re going to be challenged, one where they fit somewhere in the middle, or maybe a little above that. Not in the 90%+ where everything is going to be easy.</p>

<p>Life isn’t fair, I know that, my kids know that. I’m not whining. But am I a lone voice here? Has this not happened to ANYONE out there? Am I totally unreasonable?</p>

<p>643</p>

542

<p>
[quote]
How many of you think that admissions people parse every element of the application -- middle name vs middle initial, order of ECs listed etc?

[/quote]
You miss my point entirely. I don't care what the ad coms think, I am concerned with letting my kids have full control and ownership of the process. Obviously in the end it worked pretty well for them. I had typed stuff, in my eyes it would not have been my kid's work - it would have been a joint effort, which is absolutely fine when my son and I do crossword puzzles together, but is not the role I wanted in the college app. process.</p>

<p>Alumother is right, we have different parenting styles.

[quote]
but it's just not the end of the world if they end up somewhere else. As long as they eventually become self-supporting!

[/quote]
Yes, exactly. And my son started out one place and ended up somewhere else, and he has been self-supporting since age 20. And I like it that way -- it took a major burden off my shoulders financially, and he has become a more happy, confident, outgoing and considerate person.</p>

543

<p>it depends on the kid --I had a kid who reinvented the physics formulas in AP physics using math the teacher had never seen and had the class solving those things faster and easier his way than in the text book and who was the best math student his school had ever seen (and kick-ass writer too) but also had ADD and horrendous almost illegible handwriting. You bet I did the secretarial work for him. It's not just parents who are of different species but kids too --some may be brilliant but lack the skills Calmom's kids had to do the organizational work or dexterity to do all that sustained writing in any neat fashion. </p>

<p>We see what our kids can do and think that is natural --that all kids should do it so easily. But not everything is easy for all kids, even very smart ones. It would be my inclination and preference to do as Calmom but in these areas my kids, though gifted, needed more. I also did only secretarial tasks --but for mine, those were the tasks that required the help and might have become the wrench in the works had the help not been provided. </p>

<p>I have posted before that the only app I gave my older son no secretarial help on in 2003 was to Brown, which required it be handwritten. I could not read his writing and just said, forget it ...I'm not even going to proof read this, It's hopeless, here's one automatic reject, so all I did for him was drop it in the mail without even glancing at it ... but he DID get into Brown, where he now is. So go figure ...I still don't know what he wrote or how that admissions department managed to read it.</p>

<p>By the way he was never in Intel or a single math Olympiad ...so there.</p>

<p>I guess I could have allowed all the apps to be done that way, but it was easy for me and hard for him (in terms of dexterity etc) --every kid is different and I believe that as long as we aren't doing the substantive stuff, it's okay.</p>

<p>Calmom --I wish my kids were like yours in that regard ...if they were I would do as you do, I would prefer it and I think it is best, but it is a lot to ask of many 17-18 year olds especially boys with dysgraphia and ADD no matter how smart they are.</p>

544

<p>Calmom missing the point again. Typing in DOB and solving crossword puzzles together are totally different things.</p>

545

<p>Doubleplay, the thing is, if you are going to enter the selective college "game", it just goes with the territory to be aware that not all qualified kids get in and there may not be an obvious reason why one kid gets in over the other. I don't see it as unfair. I just see it as part of the elite admissions process and the way it is today where not all qualified will be given a spot. The key is to have a balanced list of schools where one could be happy and challenged. If a student has what it takes, then usually he/she will get into at least one selective school that is a good fit and will be challenging enough. He/she just might not get into them all (you can only attend one anyway and it is not a contest to see how many you get in). You might not be able to predict just which one will let them in, but if they have the "goods", then usually it works out at SOME places. So, who cares that Johnny got in over my Susie at X college, as long as my Susie got into a school she liked (amongst several) that is at about the right level for her. We just accept the situation for what it is and know going into it that the odds are slim and include all variations of kids, some with hooks, some with some "in" or whatever. And still, some ordinary achievers, like my kids and many of yours, ALSO got in and they didn't cure cancer, weren't in the Olympics, didn't have a relative buy a college building, etc. It usually works out if the kid has the right list and is genuinely qualified. They may not be able to pick the name of the very selective college that will take them but usually at least one does take them. No upset on our end for the one school that rejected them. The rejection was one of the expectations going into it, not because they were not good enough to get in, but because the situation of elite admissions is what it is. We aren't bothered by anything here.</p>

546

<p>Oooh, I like the animal parenting metaphors. How about the bird parents? They hunt, kill, and eat the prey then regurgitate it down their child’s throat. Maybe we should start another thread for this one. It would be fun.</p>

547

<p>
[quote]
This is what particularly upset me about earlier posts on this thread. There were people willing to castigate a kid and family without really knowing the whole story. It's rather like trying to do brain surgery when the surgeon has macular degeneration (half blind).

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well, the perfect antidote to that injustice would be for people who know the whole story to post the correct version. People "in the know" should not have any trouble dismissing the blatant speculation with a few well chosen facts. For recognizing and exposing an apocryphal story, one needs to know the ... truth. </p>

<p>Answering speculation with pretension and other charades is not very helpful.</p>

548

<p>How do I start a new thread? The only boxes I can click are replies to previously existing threads.</p>

549

<p>Tutus, the reason there is no button to click to start a new thread is because you are currently IN a thread. Go back to the Forum page....The PARENTS Forum, if you want to start a thread there. About half way down the page, at the top of the list of threads on that forum, is a white rectangular "button" that says "New Thread". Click that. But you can't be IN a thread to do that. You have to be on the forum page that lists all threads on that forum.</p>

550

<p>Tutus, you can't start a new thread. We are all doomed to die in this one.</p>

<p>We've already killed civility and reason, and some just must like to repeat what others have been saying like they alone have been struck with divine inspiration that they must give out to the poor slobs posting here. Sheesh.</p>

551

<p>To start a new thread, go to the main page of any discussion board and then scroll down to the bottom. You'll see a small white box "start a new thread" at the bottom left. Make sure that you put a title on that provides enough info to attract people to read your post.</p>

<p>For example, something like "question" is too vague a title to cause most people to click. "Question about early decision" would attract some informed people.</p>

552

<p>I should put this in a thread entitled: ***** at your kids high school.</p>

<p>Soozie, I’m not upset about my child getting turned down as much as not getting into even one school that he wasn’t overqualified for. I’m talking about those where he was in the 60 to 75%. There were 2. The rest of the schools he was accepted into honors programs.</p>

<p>I’ll tell you a story. He was on scholarship at a private hs, not only did we not donate but we didn’t even pay full tuition. They have these scattergrams that show how their students did at various schools based on grades and scores, and his red dots at those schools were all framed by green ones, above and below. On one, his red dot was close to the top. Now, I don’t know what went out in those packages where the school puts down how the kids rank in terms of stuff like leadership, character, contribution to school environment, etc. I’m beginning to wonder if this is where payback time is. I did call the universities, I hate to admit it, but curiosity got the best of me. I asked if they had any suggestions for my next in line based on my eldest. One counselor actually said that he was compared to the other kids within his school and not all kids were accepted. That surprised me since he was right smack dab in the middle (I didn’t say anything). So my experience has been different from yours. I didn’t have a kid who won some and lost some, at least in the close races. (Lest anyone think my s was a ne'er do well of low repute, he wasn't.)</p>

<p>643</p>

553

<p>Doubleplay stated, "Personally I would prefer that my kids go to a school where they’re going to be challenged, one where they fit somewhere in the middle, or maybe a little above that. Not in the 90%+ where everything is going to be easy."</p>

<p>While this is a commonly held impression it is oftentimes not the case. First, being in the top 90%+ by what standard? SAT scores? HS gpa? These are often imperfect measures of a student's abilities. You will find many engineering/science/math majorswho are terrific students but are mid-level students by SAT & hs gpa measures because they are merely average and/or disinterested in language/arts/social science students. Maybe Einstein would have fallen into this category? And of course the opposite is true and perhaps Picasso couldn't have cracked 450 on the math SAT I test.</p>

<p>And almost every reputable college will provide ample challenges for its top students. These students are free to pursue double majors, accelerated BS/MS programs of study, independent study under the mentorship of tenures faculty, and merely through the selection of challenging courses in the catalogue. This is one reason I took courses as disparate as Serbo-Croation literature, metallurgy of ferrous materials, city planning and social cybernetics.</p>

<p>Lastly, being a top student at university results in other benefits like a high gpa, graduation honors, induction into academic honoraries, independent and collaborative research, academic scholarships, etc.</p>

<p>And to be competetive for admission to the better grad/med/law/MBA schools, an undergrad needs to graduate with a gpa of 3.7+. If you and average student where the average gpa is 3.33, you should expect to graduate with a 3.33 gpa and see lots of post-grad opportunities be out of reach. And you have to believe that the plum jobs that many elite college students like to cite as the reason to shoot for that reach admission will not be open to them as average students.</p>

<p>There are many significant benefits to being a big fish in a small pond.</p>

554

<p>Original, I hope so. So far my s has called to report nothing less than 100’s on all his quizzes and labs. Yikes, that’s better than hs. So I truly hope you’re right.</p>

<p>643</p>

555

<p>Cloverdale, my son IS dysgraphic + dyslexic + clearly has an ADD learning style. It was very, very difficult to deal with when he was, say 12. It was also very hard to let go of the habit of helping him too much -- but when he was about 11 I got software to help him learn keyboarding skills, and we asked for accommodations at school to allow him to type all his papers... which he typed himself. Before that time he also typed a lot of papers and had someone else do the typing, but not me -- his younger sister did it for him, from the age of 3. </p>

<p>I am not saying that it is easy for every family. But kids don't get the skills from having someone else take care of things for them. It's that old adage about giving a man a fish or teaching him how to fish.... the organizational skills needed to be taught.</p>

<p>My son also had problems with Brown's old requirement that the essay be typed -- that's why he chose not to apply. It was just too much of a hassle. His organizational issues were a factor in his difficulties at his first college .... but after he quit college he got a job, and within a the first two weeks was promoted to an interim management level. Within 6 months he was co-managing an operation with 20-30 employees, responsible for hiring, firing, recruitment, payroll, etc., and within a year he was sent on his own to head up a new project in a distant community, adding the requirement of renting office space and securing equipment to his growing list of responsibilities. </p>

<p>Again, I'm not saying that it is easy - but the more he had to do himself, the more organized he became.</p>

556

<p>Thanks, you're very funny. I already posted a question regarding tranferring in a completely unrelated thread and have lost it. Therefore if someone answered my question (other than the first person who got there before I left the page) it's forever doomed to die.</p>

557

<p>Thank you, I'll try again.</p>

558

<p>Cur, you seem to be a little grouchy here. I've read all of these posts, not at one sitting, but I've read them all. And some thoughts have been repeated. I just skip those and move on. I read this thread because I'm interested in other people's opinions, not in order to really learn anything earthshaking. As you say, it's probably all been said. But isn't that what a conversation is? I have to say that it rubs me the wrong way to have someone say that I should just re-read their thoughts in order to see the truth. </p>

<p>Here's one you may not have heard. The college application process is like childbirth. Some women opt for a totally natural delivery -- no meds of any kind. Some opt for an epidural as soon as possible. Either way the kid is delivered. There is no stamp which says, "Delivered without any medical intervention" on the kids rear end. So, moms and dads who feel it's necessary to help a brilliant but disorganized child stay on top of deadlines, or type things when the kid's handwriting is illegible would be like those who take the meds. Parents who take a hands-off approach do it the natural way. But there are consequences to every choice.</p>

<p>Doublplay, I understand how you feel -- my son was waitlisted at one school where he really should have been admitted, and kids with lower stats got in. But maybe their essays struck a chord that my son's didn't. Or maybe their ECs were more in line with that school's mission. Either way, there wasn't anything we could do about that and so moved on. In your son's case, maybe there was a reason, maybe not. As Andison's saga shows, sometimes it just doesn't make sense.</p>

<p>Calmom, some of those disorganized kids just rise to the occasion when they get to college. My older son is young for his grade -- he managed to be quite independent and successful during his first year nevertheless.</p>

559

<p>Doubleplay, I hear you. But I simply do not know enough about your child or his actual college list. </p>

<p>Not speaking about you now, but I have seen many students or parents on CC list "stats" and then I see the college lists and the lists are not balanced enough. The right college list is key. </p>

<p>I don't have much to really say about your child's outcome as I just don't have specifics to comment with any meaning. </p>

<p>I work as a college counselor and am in the middle of suggesting colleges and helping many students to formulate and finalize their lists. Not all students or families are realistic, that I can tell you. It is rewarding for me to see the lists evolve after many suggestions and the rationale that I provide, all highly individualized. If these families went into it with the original lists they gave me, I don't think they'd have made out as well. Hard to say for certain. </p>

<p>While I know my kids are high achiever types, I think they had good college lists that were realistic for THEM. They had no big "in" or "hook" but were very good at what they did. They knew going into it how very difficult the odds were at various schools and that a rejection would not be a reflection on them. NO devastation here. But both had 8 schools that resulted in 6 acceptances, one waitlist, and one rejection. Maybe they got lucky, can't say. But I think they had the right lists and they knew that these lists would mean SOME rejections due to the nature of highly selective admissions schools, but they also knew that they likely would not be closed out of all schools because their lists were appropriate ones. </p>

<p>I'm not saying that any of that applies to your child's case. I clearly do not know enough to say. But I do observe these issues amongst many posters on CC and amongst many kids I work with. </p>

<p>Also just because a kids' stats are above 75% of the admitted students at X college, the selectivity (percentage of those students accepted) can be low and so kids even with stellar stats STILL get rejected. Valedictorians and perfect 1600 even get turned away. Because my kids knew going INTO the process what elite admissions is like, they did not come to expect to get into specific schools. They knew that by NOT getting in, it didn't mean they didn't have what it took to get in (they did). It's just the nature of selective admissions. </p>

<p>Now, if your kid had stats better than 75% of those admitted AND the school had like an 80% acceptance rate, then I'd have to wonder a bit and examine things like ECs, recs, essays or something less tangible to understand what happened. But for very selective schools with low acceptance rates, where one's stats are even above the average for the school, it don't mean a thing. They can STILL be rejected. My kids went into the process NOT expecting each school to take them. No big cry if they got rejected. But they also went in feeling pretty sure some place on their list would take them. Their results turned out even better than they expected. Maybe some luck was involved, can't say. I think they had the right lists.</p>

560

<p>
[quote]
I have to say that it rubs me the wrong way to have someone say that I should just re-read their thoughts in order to see the truth

[/quote]
sj, I didn't say that either. ;)</p>