<p>your Harvard quote is typical adcom PR, IMHO. Yes, they quote a 600-800 range. But this included large numbers of "hooked" admits. Other sources have clearly shown that the chances of unhooked kids with scores at the lower end of the quoted range are very low. </p>
<p>I'm sorry, but I do not give much weight at all to the public statements of admissons officials, or to materials on their public websites regarding admissions matters. This is because time and time again, when actual data has leaked into the hands of researchers, it turns out the past statements of adcoms were not completely accurate, and in some cases wildly off base.</p>
<p>I don't want to hijack this thread to an issue that's been hashed out before. But I will say in closing that to say this particular person's SAT scores are fine, are well within the norms of admittees to certain elite universities is not supported by independent evidence.</p>
<p>Maybe transfer students are judged by different standards (I really did not get involved with all of the ins and outs, statistics, chances, etc. for transfers during my daughter's process), but I will say that she has no hooks for her school and was admitted with the same score as the person being discussed. Obviously most students have a higher score (that is what the 25-75% data means, by definition), but it appears that "unhooked" students with lower scores are not always automatically rejected.</p>
<p>Yes, transfer students ARE judged by different standards. Of course - there's a year, or more, of college under their belts. I know of one college classmate of my D's who was rejected by H for undergrad, then transferred a year later.</p>
<p>Also, we're talking probabilities, not absolutes, not automatic rejects. If you were to look at the actual data for the SAT ranges discussed here, you would find that a percentage DO get in, but a much, much smaller percentage than those with higher scores.</p>
<p>Although I used the term "hooked" as if it were absolute (binary, if you will), we know it is not. </p>
<p>Look, those that criticized the SAT score may have been unfair, but no more unfair than those that took the other position. There is just too much evidence that says SAT scores matter to some schools. And they matter a lot.</p>
<p>Yield is different from the admission rate, which is the ratio of the number of admitted students over the number of applicants. Yield is the ratio of enrolled students over admitted students. The higher the selectivity the LOWER the admission rate is and the HIGHER the yield is. </p>
<p>A drop in applications would not kill a yield, but could actually improve it.</p>
<p>One of the great lines I heard in my first trip through the process, from a Yale admissions officer: "People are always asking how much weight we put on SAT scores. Here's my answer: 'More than we say we do; less than you think we do.'"</p>
<p>The student in question has many other outstanding attributes, putting aside his relatively low SAT score, so it makes sense that he fell into the relatively small group of people with lower scores who are admitted despite their lower scores.</p>
<p>Right. If they are going to take someone "unhooked" with relatively low SATs, it will be the valedictorian at a good, large high school, with enough outside accomplishments to get featured in a national newspaper. But it's worth pointing out again that, in most of life, the difference between a 1380 SAT person and a 1600 SAT person isn't very important -- it's what they do and who they are that will matter.</p>
<p>I will add that in the early 70s a friend of mine had the highest cumulative GPA in his high school class in Texas. My friend and his younger siblings constituted 50% of the African-American students in the school. The spring of his senior year, the school decided to determine who was valedictorian based on SAT scores (and, surprise!, my friend came third). People are always emphasizing one metric or another based on the result they want to reach . . . .</p>
<p>Fairfax County Public Schools call ALL graduates who have a 4.0+ GPA valedictorians. My D's FCPS hs just graduated 17 valedictorians out of a class of 550. Robinson graduated 750+ kids in June. I don't know how many were considered vals. The 2006 graduate with the highest GPA at Robinson is a girl and she is also going to Duke.</p>
<p>He's so up in the air about it, because he doesn't think his class rank is good enough and he has enough ECs and Awards/Honors</p>
<p>I don't know enough one way or the other. </p>
<p>There are so many knowledgeable people on this forum, I'm sure many of you could tell me if he really has a better than average chance:</p>
<p>Academics
GPA: 3.75 (uw), 4.176 (w)
Class rank: 86th percentile in class of 165
PSAT: 228
SAT: CR-800 M-800 W-730
SAT II: Math 2- 760, Chemistry- 790, US History - 690
Advanced Placement:
European History 5, Biology - 4 (taken in 10th grade)
Chemistry - 5, US History- 4 (taken in 11th grade)</p>
<p>Student Activities Grade
Key Club 11-12
National Honor Society 11-12
Academic Team 10-12
Chess Club 9-11
Peer Tutor 9-12
Team Leader, Weekend Freshman Retreat, 12</p>
<p>Athletics Grade
Freshman Football, Captain 9
JV Football 9-10
Varsity Football 10-12
Captain 12</p>
<p>Community Activities
AFCAMM Tutor (underprivileged children) instituted NHS Tutoring Program there
Habitat for Humanity
Harry Chapin Food Bank</p>
<p>Awards and Honors
National Merit Semifinalist (Just found out!)
Principals List GPA 4.24 and above
First Honor Roll GPA 4.00 4.23
AP Scholar with Honors 11</p>
<p>"From what I see, it seems his fuel cell research was key here. His father being a nuclear chemist may have helped with that?"</p>
<hr>
<p>Peege --I doubt that a nuclear chemist would be involved in fuel cell research at all. Somewhere else someone also posted a note about the "nuclear fuel cell". I have no clue where they got that idea -- I re-read the article and it never said a nuclear fuel cell, it only said fuel cell research.
Moreover, it appears to me that his other EC were what got him to Duke, not just fuel cell research.</p>
<p>In reading these various posts what strikes me is how divergent the various views are -- from positive, uplifting assessments, to mean-spirited demeaning ones. I sincerely doubt that USA Today intended this as a "whiney" article. Rather I am certain they wanted to highlight the stress that kids go through to today in applying to colleges, to recommend some coping strategies, and to illustrate that even the best students don't get into their first choices. </p>
<p>This kid has much to be proud of, and in my read of the article he is "thrilled" to be going to Duke. I don't sense any lament on his or his family's part. God has a plan for all, and perhaps this is simply the place he was meant to be. Duke has a reputation for selecting "people who care" and are committed to making the world a better place and saw something in him that fit their mold.</p>
<p>Of course the Harvard quote is typical PR! And so is MIT Dean Jones' assertions. Should it be assumed that Chicago is above PR? </p>
<p>The main point is that we all know that exactly the same application will get a student into one college and rejected at another of exactly the same caliber. We just do not know what kind of essay the student wrote, what recs he got. We're not the adcoms.</p>
<p>of course your analysis is correct, FOR SOME SCHOOLS.<br>
Truth is, we just don't know how any college really views any application. We also don't know how is recs were and so forth. We do know how his published stats compare.</p>
<p>BM,</p>
<p>Far be it from me to comment on your son's chances. You probably know, though, that his his class rank, if he is in the 2nd decile, will work sagainst him. Here's some data from U. Chicago for last years class. The most recent was even better:</p>
<p>Unranked 41%
Rank % of Ranked Class
Top 10% 78%
Top 15% 87%
Top 20% 91%</p>
<p>So he would be toward the bottom of the ADMITTED pool. That's not the same as the applicant pool, of course. And I also don't know how competitive his HS is, but adcoms will. If he's at a competitive high performing HS, it would help.</p>
<p>Bottom line, though, is you gotta buy that lottery ticket if you have any chance of winning. </p>
<p>Also, have you thought about the athletics route? His stats would be no problem if he came on a coach's list.</p>
<p>Brandon's Mom, I think he has a chance, though his class rank may play against him. It will all depend I think on what he's done with his extra curriculars or how he can present himself as passionate about something. He's not a shoe-in, but then no one is.</p>
<p>A very common response on CC will be: which Ivy? They are very different from one anotherL Columbia, for example, has a core curriculum that makes it closer to Chicago than to Harvard or Princeton. Dartmouth is closer to a LAC than to a full-scale research university; it is rural, whereas Columbia and Harvard are truly urban. And so forth.<br>
Another issue to consider is the financial one. None of the "Ivies" give merit money. Would your child qualify for need-based aid? His scores would very probably earn him good merit money at a number of excellent (non-Ivy) schools.
Would he consider honors colleges at some state unis? In that case applying early to those that have rolling admissions would be advisable. And an admission in the fall would make the rest of the application process much less stressful.
If he does have a preference for an Ivy or for a similar school, by all means, he should apply. The only certainty is that he won't get in if he does not aply. Just keep in mind that the schools are highly selective, which means they admit fewer students than are qualified.</p>
<p>Brandon's Mom, his class rank and unweighted GPA hurt, no doubt, but as Marite says the only absolute certainty is that he won't get in if he doesn't try!
What is the competition at his high school??? If the top 5-10% of the class, only, usually gets into Ivy- caliber colleges, then he probably has little chance, quite frankly. If an Ivy admit is a rarity, he may have little chance because when dealing with a relatively unknown school, I think the adcoms have to pay close attention to the numbers - they have less "soft" experience to go on. Now if he is at a very competitive prep school where the upper 20% go to Ivies, even if that hasn't occurred for a few years, then he has more of a chance.
My advice is similar to Marite - research the tippy-top schools, determine which one or 2 are the best fit for him, send in an application, and completely forget about it - go on to the schools where the odds are better for any student, he needs to focus effort on falling in love with some of those.</p>
<p>Could he be recruited for football?? Is he a URM??? All these things fit into the equation, and aren't mentioned in your description of your son.</p>
<p>The real pitfalls in this are the kid getting too wrapped up in the idea of going to a top, top school - either through well-meaning people saying "Oh you are a shoo-in", or the kid's own thought processes - and the other pitfall - not understanding how financing at Ivies works, and thinking that if son gets in family will automatically be happy with the COA, or that there will be a "scholarship". Those pitfalls can blind the whole family to the true task at hand - finding a super fit school that he loves, that your family can afford.</p>
<p>Parents should NOT have to offer any excuses for their parental involvement or guidance. Some families are able to rely on the guidance of school officers, but most don't. Further, there are areas of the process that ABSOLUTELY require parental intervention: despite the claims made by coaches and officials, parents should NEVER, EVER abdicate their rights and obligations to remain involved in discussions regarding their children choices. There is, however, a difference between remaining involved and oppressively and vicariously manage the process. </p>
<p>Students with parents who are able to help navigating the process are luckier than most. </p>
<p>The second point relates to the SAT. The absolute score is meaningless and the comparison with the 25-75% percentiles is not that important. The SAT score is measured against the individual circumstances of a student and also serves as a VALIDATING element for the remaining part of the application. In so many words, a student with a 1380 score can be viewed as underperforming a student who had to overcome major hurdles but earned only a 1280. In the original story, the SAT score undermines the other accomplishments--if not openly raising questions about the validity of the GPA, the strength of the IB, and other parts of the file. To add insult to injury, the student's environment does not offer any mitigatiing elements, quite to contrary. That is how it works, and how it should work. Differenet admission results simply indicate the various weights schools give to the components of their holistic review. The different results at Duke and Princeton are not very surprising.</p>
<p>ooops xiggi's right...I didn't mean yield. Good Lord, I even worked in college admissions for a few years way back in the day when the brain cells were clicking a little better. :-) But ya know what I meant right?</p>
<p>LDmom, I knew--and I'm sure most everyone on CC--what you meant. :)</p>
<p>On another issue at hand, regarding, "I'm wondering about the nuclear chemist dad-->fuel cell research and patent application connection too." I do not think you need to wonder much longer. Echoing my dismayed sentiment (shared in the much-debated thread on Intel finalists) about the parental contributions in the "preparation" and "selection" of projects, I can only say, " Ah, the coincidences!" </p>
<p>
[quote]
Test and Evaluation of the Smart Fuel Cell C20-MP Direct Methanol Hybrid Fuel Cell System as a Soldier Power Source</p>
<p>Authors: Jonathan Cristiani and Nicholas Sifer
Contributors / Editors: Christopher Bolton, Elizabeth Bostic, William Campbell, Dr. James Cross, Terry DuBois, Pavel Fomin, Dr. Ashok Patil, and Darwin Reckart</p>
<p>U.S. Army Research, Development, and Engineering Command; Communications – Electronics Research, Development, Engineering Center;
Command and Control Directorate; Army Power Division; Environmental Systems and Fuel Cell Branch Fort Belvoir, Virginia
<p>Ugh, Xiggi, I would much rather admit a kid with 1380 SATs and sustained high classroom performance -- especially if I knew that the school was a good one and I could see that he was regularly outperforming 1500 kids -- than a kid with 1550 SATs and spottier classroom performance over a 3-4 year period. In my mind, the SATs tend to make the achievement look more significant. After all, if a kid is a genius, getting better grades than other kids doesn't have a whole lot of moral value; it's like water flowing downhill. If a kid is clearly not a genius, and he's outperforming geniuses in a series of fair contests, maybe he's found the Philosopher's Stone or something. In any event, it's impressive.</p>