Family Gets Lesson in Admissions

Parents Forum
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<p>Assuming that all that work leading to the high grades and achievement is genuine. I think what Xiggi is saying is that the lower SAT scores calls the GPA & achievements into question somewhat -- in a thread in which people are so avidly defending the right of the parents to type out application forms for their too-busy kids, and in which the son of a nuclear chemist is pursuing a patent for his fuel cell research... you kind of wonder how many other ways the kid might have gotten extra help along the way from his father. </p>

<p>As the parent of a high achieving kid who doesn't test well, I am no defender of the SAT system, as Xiggi well knows. But I see Xiggi's point about the disconnect, especially when there is what appears to be an extraordinary level of achievement. Even without the test scores, you question whether the the kid could have accomplished some of these things without a considerable amount of adult input and support -- it's like those perfectly constructed fifth grade science projects that are so obviously the work of the parents. If someone is passing themselves off as a genius, it makes some sense to expect that they will have genius-level test scores. If they don't.. well I can see why the kid ends up in Princeton's reject pile. It's not that the ad com doesn't like the kid, it's that they don't quite believe it. </p>

<p>Now I don't know the score break down, so maybe this kid is one of those lopsided math & science types with with a 760 in math and 620 in CR ...and in that context the scores start to correlate a little better with the performance level. </p>

<p>That doesn't mean that it isn't possible for a kid to perform award-winning scientific research while at the same time having difficulty with standardized tests... its just that it isn't all that likely, and a school like Princeton has plenty of other applicants to choose from.</p>

<p>We're not saying that the kid should have been rejected from Princeton; we're just saying that we are not surprised that he was, and certainly it is valid for the college to have made that decision based on the submission of test scores on the lower end of the applicant pool. </p>

<p>I think that Xiggi's comments about looking at the SAT scores in context are very much on target.</p>

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<p>Interesting xiggi. Google will get you everytime, won't it?</p>

<p>Calmom - I also considered the possibility of a lopsided SAT, but don't most colleges stress the importance of writing and communicating skills? Are we not told time and again how crucial it is for our kids to nail that essay? I don't doubt this is a quality candidate, but I agree with you...there is enough there that would give a highly selective college reason to move on to the next application. And from the USA Today article, I don't think the kid or his parents took issue with that fact at all.</p>

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<p>Calmom, let it go about other parents doing some " secretarial work" for their overscheduled kids, will ya! You have not been criticized for NOT doing for your kids what others, such as cur ,choose to do, so quit ooking for the opportunity to get in evey last dig you possibly can. There is no absolute right or wrong way for families to handle the college application process! Give it a rest. Sheeeeeeesh.</p>

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<p>Ldmom, I think we are making the same point -- it would be possible for some college to look at a lopsided SAT and attach little significance to it, but it certainly is not reasonable to expect all colleges to do that, so it seems to me to be perfectly logical that Princeton rejects the fuel-cell researching kid because his scores are below par. Presumeably he's competing head to head with many other kids with stellar accomplishments and 1500+ SATs.</p>

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<p>I think there is a more important point here than whether or not it is okay to help a kid with the mundane tasks in the college application process. In fact, I admit to helping my d when her schedule got crunchy. When she was taking an extra 6:30 a.m. class in addition to four APs so she could show two advanced senior sciences on her application, taking two SAT IIs on the same day as the homecoming dance for which decorations were her responsibility and when at the exact same time she was looking at a deadline for one application item or another, I didn't mind at all stuffing the envelopes and running the info down to the post office. And I really don't think calmom faults me for it either.</p>

<p>But, the more important question is why are our kids subjecting themselves to these grueling schedules, grueling to the point where going to the post office becomes an issue? To compete against applicants with fuel cell research patents, that's why. There are types of parental involvement that are insidious and harmful.... and typing and envelope stuffing ain't it.</p>

<p>I'm going to add a personal experience here. My d competed at Nat'l History Day. Her team won first place at State and third at Nationals (out of about 90 teams). The very first time I saw their performance was dress rehearsal in a garage before we left for regionals. I was blown away by their work. They had over 130 sources, a large number of which were primary. They had travelled to university libraries from Houston to Austin, interviewed Rice professors and CDC professionals, met with US Customs...all on their own. At state, the judges (UT professors), noted it was the best performance they had ever judged and that they hoped our girls were not graduating seniors so they could see them again the following year. You cannot how imagine how proud we parents were of these girls for THEIR work. And how valuable it was to their confidence and ego to know they did this work themselves. Now NHD is not Intel and it doesn't make the impact of some of these science/math competitions on the admissions decision process I will admit. But it does bother me when it is apparent that work product is unjustly attributed to a student. In the long run, everyone is harmed by this.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
The SAT score is measured against the individual circumstances of a student and also serves as a VALIDATING element for the remaining part of the application. ...In the original story, the SAT score undermines the other accomplishments-- not openly raising questions about the validity of the GPA, the strength of the IB, and other parts of the file. To add insult to injury, the student's environment does not offer any mitigatiing elements, quite to contrary. That is how it works, and how it should work.

[/quote]
I said this same thing, xig. You just said it better.</p>

<p>And you are some google-man, aren't you? I'm impressed - as usual. You need to start looking for that bin laden dude. Shouldn't take you long. We'll split the moolah or at least invite me to the bar-b-que. (I'm having brisket slow smoked by a grateful felon tonight. A Texas lawyer's dream.)</p>

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<p>A few thoughts...</p>

<p>-The SAT II will validate (or not!) the GPA. APs will do the same. If you're valedictorian but got a 600 on your SAT IIs and a 3 on your AP, while your classmates perform much better, it brings up questions. </p>

<ul>
<li>a 1380 shouldn't keep any student OUT of any school - it just doesn't help.</li>
</ul>

<p>-Hate me for saying this, but a Princeton rejection can't be seen as too weird. I've met a fair number of P-ton grads, and frankly have not been "wowed" by any of them. They are all intelligent, yes, but none of them are really that amazing intellectually.</p>

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<p>Interesting evolution of this thread. Amazing how a little data changes one's perspective.</p>

<p>Maybe we parents aren't doing enough? I mean, I never even THOUGHT to write a patent application for my daugher!</p>

<p>Sigh. I learn years too late what it seems to take for the elite of the elites.</p>

<p>[confession time: D and parents could not be happier with how things turned out for my own kid! Extra parental involvement or not...]</p>

<p>Edit: Just a thought: Maybe some of the schools that rejected him DID google? Hmmmm.</p>

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<p>Quote from Calmom:</p>

<h1>"Assuming that all that work leading to the high grades and achievement is genuine. I think what Xiggi is saying is that the lower SAT scores calls the GPA & achievements into question somewhat -- in a thread in which people are so avidly defending the right of the parents to type out application forms for their too-busy kids, and in which the son of a nuclear chemist is pursuing a patent for his fuel cell research... you kind of wonder how many other ways the kid might have gotten extra help along the way from his father."</h1>

<p>I have read some of this discourse in the pages above, and I am totally amazed -- no, astonished -- at the way many of the posters are condemning both the kid and the family WITHOUT a shred of corroborating evidence. You are drawing conclusions from the article that are totally indefensible. More importantly, trying to conclude that a kid with a 1400 SAT score can't achieve such things is utter nonsense. I've known many a kid in my days with outstanding SATs and high IQ who has no drive, determination, or perserverance. Conversely I have known others with lesser SATs that have done great things. </p>

<p>Might I remind this august body of contributors of three points. First, contrary to many of these posts a 1400 SAT is not bad by any standard. Second, doesn't it seem reasonable that the admissions counselors who have access to far more information than in the article (counselor statements, teacher recommendations, essays, detailed transcripts, details on all activities, AP test scores, etc) are in a much better position to evaluate the candidate against others? The only information you have available is a half page article written by a USA Today staff writer. Even the best schools select a significant portion of students with less than perfect SAT scores (unhooked ones as well) because THEY know that the SAT is an imperfect evaluation tool used alone. Third, the SAT is notorious for being coachable -- so was he coached or not. Comparing a "uncoached" 1400 to a coached 1500 is nonsense -- the later simply learned the "tricks" of taking the test -- which doesn't make him/her any smarter, just that momma/poppa shelled out big bucks for group or private tutoring.</p>

<p>Bottom line -- give the kid a break. Don't assume what is not known. If you want to lambast admissions counselors for what you perceive as inequity so be it. But to besmirch the character of someone without knowledge of the circumstances is the epitome of prejudice.</p>

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<p>abfalle - we have the USA Today article....and xiggi's links. </p>

<p>Not trying to be unfair, but when a person willingly 'puts it out there', it is only fair to expect analysis, questions, and yes, at times, conclusions. No one is claiming to know everything here, but I have to imagine this family knew and even hoped their experience and interview would prompt discourse.</p>

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<p>NMD:</p>

<p>No need to repine. Buying a patent did not help the kid get into P & Y! </p>

<p>Confession time for me, too: I reread the article and in the process, realized I was the first poster to bring up the SAT scores :( </p>

<p>But in re-reading the article, I was confirmed in my impression that the kid did not express a feeling of entitlement. He was disappointed, to be sure, and used a bit of hyperbole when he talked of failure, but he did not question P's and Y's decision. And he sounds very happy to be heading off to Duke.</p>

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<p>Abfalle, the beauty of a forum such as this one is that people are free to express their opinions and draw their own conclusions. It is up to the other members to decide to nod in agreement or vehemently shake their head in disgust. </p>

<p>Speaking about drawing premature or indefensible conclusions based on sketchy and speculative data, aren't you committing the same sin you accuse others of?</p>

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<p>Xiggi -- you are correct that people ARE FREE to express their opinions and draw their own conclusions. That's a hallmark in the Constitutional right of freedown of speech. HOWEVER, there are limits to that freedom that are embodied in laws against libel and slander.</p>

<p>From Webster:</p>

<p>Libel: a : a written or oral defamatory statement or representation that conveys an unjustly unfavorable impression b (1) : a statement or representation published without just cause and tending to expose another to public contempt (2) : defamation of a person by written or representational means (3) : the publication of blasphemous, treasonable, seditious, or obscene writings or pictures (4) : the act, tort, or crime of publishing such a libel</p>

<p>My concern is that this forum (not uncommon in forums and blogs) is that some of the posts (not all certainly) may meet the test of libel. For example, in part a -- a statement that "conveys an unjustly unfavorable impression". This thread has offered speculation but no proof and has created an unjustly unfavorable impression I think not only of the admissions process (no libel there) and the kid and family. Even your google research only raises speculation not proof that the work was not the kids. (Though there is probably no doubt he had access to equipment, but that doesn't imply that the project and work were not his own.)</p>

<p>And no, I don't think I am committing the same "sin". My observations at the root are nothing more than noting that people have cast dispersions on a kid without any proof -- offering only innuendos, conjecture, etc. I wouldn't object so much is the whole thread had started with the assumption that the participants (young man and family) are above reproach -- and then clearly moved into a debate of admissions policies, parental involvement, at a general level. (To their credit a few people in this forum tried to do just this, but other posters dragged it back into the mud.) What is sticking in my craw is that he is being characterized as the "everyman" for what is wrong with the admissions process and parental involvement. </p>

<p>As far as this thread goes I see little value in further involvment, so I'll go someone where reason prevails and leave others to continue to flail away here. Have fun.</p>

<p>PS: What makes these forums and blogs less effective is the pure anonymity that they afford. People can blather on without consequences. When it is about some topics (size of dorm rooms, best places to eat, advantages of larger versus small school, etc.) it probably doesn't matter. But when it involves specific individuals it becomes more problematic. I suspect that if people were required to provide personal contact data much of the allegations and innuendo would be muted. Have a nice day.</p>

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<p>Sorry I'm just getting back here - had to travel 50 miles to Brandon's football game last night, that got cancelled due to severe lightning! So it's back on the road again this morning, for another 100-mile round trip to that rescheduled game.</p>

<p>We are all devoted parents, aren't we? lol. </p>

<p>You all are right. I didn't expand enough on Brandon's ECs, and apparently had a few things wrong. </p>

<p>I had Brandon's class rank incorrect - he is 16th out of a class of 160.</p>

<p>The only Ivy he was thinking of applying was to Harvard. </p>

<p>While he's not an All-State high school football player in Florida (a difficult task indeed in this state!), he's a very good 2-way player - 1st string offensive tackle and 1st string defensive end. To be honest, he's not big enough (6'2", 230 lbs) or good enough for a Division I-A school, but could play football at many Division II schools.</p>

<p>He attends a competitive parochial high school and they do have graduates attending Ivy League schools. The president of National Honor Society from the class of 2006 is starting Yale this fall, for example. Don't know of any recent graduates who went to Harvard, though.</p>

<p>Brandon will be taking 4 AP classes this year (Physics, English literature, Calculus, and Government), and is also going to take 2 additional exams this coming May for AP subjects not offered at his high school - Economics and another English (maybe Composition?). </p>

<p>Finally, he won a 4-year 1/2 tuition scholarship to his high school while he was still in 8th grade, as one of the 5 highest scorers on the incoming freshman placement exam. </p>

<p>Brandon did all of this in spite of growing up in a poor single-parent household, and having a father who cares very little for him and rarely sees him & his sister. </p>

<p>Hopefully that gives a little better picture of him. </p>

<p>I very much appreciate any additional input!!</p>

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<p>Brandon's mom:</p>

<p>I suggest he contact the coach of the football team at H if he is interested. If he is admitted, he would qualify for need-based aid, based on what you report. </p>

<p>Will he be applying for a Bright Futures scholarship? I would imagine that he would qualify for U of Florida. If he felt it was a good fit, that would be a great safety. Then he can gamble on crapshoot schools.</p>

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<p>Brandon hasn't lived in a single parent household since the end of 8th grade, but he started living in one when he was 8 months old, and developed his academic and athletic skills not with the aid of his father but those of his coaches and a little bit from his non-athletic mother!</p>

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<p>brandon's mom,</p>

<p>That class rank will certainly help compared to 86%! But a single focus on Harvard won't. I don't know much about Ivy athletics, but would encourage him to contact the coach at some schools, and also to think a bit more broadly about college choices. There are great options out there.</p>

<p>Some other things to think about:</p>

<ul>
<li><p>parochial school will neither help nor hurt unless the school is noted for academics, like some Jesuit and Christian Brothers HS are, in which case the school may be a slight boost. This is an area you can help, by making sure the school profile adequately communicates the nature and strength of the school. There have been other threads on this in past years. Some others may be able to provide links.</p></li>
<li><p>it is unfortunate that senior year AP results come waaay too late for admissons consideration, so the extra AP exams he'll take won't mean anything.</p></li>
<li><p>your single parenthood may help. You certainly want him to look at a range of schools with generous fin aid policies. He can probably be admitted to some that will cost less for you than a Florida state university!</p></li>
<li><p>Don't expect a geographic tip because of Florida residence. </p></li>
</ul>

<p>Good luck. You have a kid with good prospects. Colleges tend to like good athletes, even for regular admission (not athletic) because it shows the ability to handle a heavy load with discipline.</p>

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<p>Bandons' Mom</p>

<p>Welcome to CC and the parents forum. </p>

<p>Because of the lenght of this thread and all of its twists and turns, I would recommend your opening up a separate thread about your son so the help/advice that you are seeking doesn't get caught up in the rest of this stuff.</p>

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<p>Abfalle, as fas as casting ... aspersions, I think you are indeed as guilty as the same persons you accuse, if not more. Since you found necessary to single out my post, I'd like to dismiss your accusation of being libelous by simply pointing to my exact words, and further pointing that a standard test for libel is the presence of malice and the use of information that is known to be false.</p>

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<p>So is Abfalle your full real name, or just a screen name like everybody else?</p>