<p>There may be another possibility - a gap year where both you and your son can save some money to make the OSS college more affordable and give him a year to mature.</p>
<p>I was thinking the same thing mathmom. It doesn’t have to be either or/all of nothing.</p>
<p>Lost one income, medical wiped out most of savings, have not recovered, already “older” parents, S2 found a solution that made his college affordable-- none of this sounds discretionary or like willfully denying something to S3, to me.</p>
<p>And, maybe S3 would benefit from cc. Maybe that is a good choice. We can’t say. </p>
<p>It’s not selfish to consider the kid and the context. OP has expressed some concerns about her son, but also positives. Sounds frank about how he’d later tackle his debt. I like the saying, “fair isn’t always equal and equal isn’t always fair.” Until 9 months ago, I thought we had been unfair to D2 by sending her to her particular college. (Her 1st choice.) </p>
<p>So yes, examine your motives. But if what’s best for him and what you can afford point in one direction, that is ok. I think even asking this question and feeling torn shows you do care. Good luck.</p>
<p>Another thing to consider is that a solid B student with ADD probably worked harder for his grades than the average A student. Perhaps he is actually a better or as good a student as any. You can’t ask for more than 100% effort.</p>
<p>“With the recession and a medical illness we lost one income. Medical expenses wiped out much of our savings. We still have not recovered.”</p>
<p>Surely your son is fully aware of this! He’s been living it for the past five or six years. His expectations of what your family can shell out must certainly be completely different from the expectations of the first child who entered college before all of these things happened.</p>
<p>My best guess is that you can barely scrape it together for even a CC. Am I right about that? If so, then drop the guilt, be straight with your son about the money, and move on.</p>
<p>When Happykid was in 9th grade I found an EFC calculator and realized that what we would be expected to pay was four times what we could pay - what we could pay was the local CC. It took me another year before I could really accept that fact. By the time Happykid was in 11th grade and starting to think about college, Happydad and I were able to have a united front on the money issue: CC or somewhere that costs us no more than that much. My kid was a B/B+ student who tests badly so I knew from the get-go that CC would be the only viable option. After she determined that her major was offered at the CC, she didn’t want to look anywhere else.</p>
<p>As luck would have it, she landed a tuition/fees scholarship at the CC which meant that what we would have spent there was able to accumulate in savings and can now be used to help pay for the State U where she transferred. When asked about her experience at her CC, her reply is that if it were a 4-year institution, she would have stayed there rather than transferring because she really liked her department and the opportunities offered in her major there. Not one single regret about starting at the CC.</p>
<p>First of all, can’t child #1 help a little with child #3’s education? You helped with his/hers. Even just $100 a month or help with travel or books.</p>
<p>Secondly, child #3 is probably the kid that is going to take care of you in your old age and do it cheerfully! Worth investing in, worth maintaining a good relationship with. I agree with those who see a possibility of resentment developing, although such a good-natured child will probably forgive you. And of course avoiding resentment is not normally the primary consideration in parenting, but in this case the resentment would be quite justified.</p>
<p>Third, please, don’t hold your child back from their dreams even though it means sacrifice. I think going to that OOS means just as much or more to child #3 as all those elite colleges did to his sibs. Yeah CC offers this and that advantage, it’s absolutely fine when considered in a vacuum, but no one can pretend it’s the same as heading off to a four year college.</p>
<p>Hope for the best and give your son unqualified support. If he doesn’t succeed at OOS, bite your tongue and help him in whatever the next stage of his life is. Many fully qualified kids without any LDs, ADD, etc., flunk out of college (including one of mine who is now quite successful in life and helps me very generously). Those happy average kids make wonderful people and often go far!</p>
<p>I speak as a youngest child who had my dreams thwarted. I speak as a grandparent raising a grandchild which pretty much ruined my savings plans for retirement (but raising her has been a most unexpected pleasure! And I know she’ll help me when I need it.) I speak as someone whose other grown children are helping out with the education expenses of said grandchild. I speak as as single parent who took on education loans and loans using my car as collateral to pay education expenses for my son who eventually flunked out. Don’t regret it for a minute.</p>
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<p>I knew an undergrad who was working his way through school despite having multi-millionaire parents who weren’t hesitant about showing it off in the form of fancy cars, fancy high-end clothing/jewelry, and vacation homes in the Hamptons. </p>
<p>He felt very conflicted about feeling the obligation to love his parents despite the fact he rightfully felt his parents didn’t feel he was “worth it” despite being a straight-A student with topflight scores as they had more self-absorbed materialistic priorities. </p>
<p>He asked for my take and I said if they were my parents, I’d focus on graduating from college and not feel any further obligation to help/treat them like parents because IMO…they’ve shown that their priorities didn’t include his college needs even though they could have easily covered them if they weren’t so set on their self-absorbed materialistic lifestyle. While the parents have a right to spend their money however they wished, the child also has a right to his/her feelings in reaction to such…and withdraw all contact if necessary. </p>
<p>Granted, my perspective comes from a family which feels parents and extended family members SHOULD sacrifice for an academically inclined college-bound student showing much promise and would look askance at parents like the ones with self-absorbed materialistic priorities above who gave such students “short shrift” as they’d put it. </p>
<p>However, being helped in such a manner also obligates that student to “pay it forward” by helping with family financial or other needs…such as academically tutoring younger relations or helping out at family shindigs like weddings.</p>
<p>One major difference is that my extended family would probably feel similarly as the OP though the fact he holds a part-time job will mitigate a huge portion of that. </p>
<p>Moreover, a 3.3 HS GPA would be looked upon far more kindly and there may be a greater likelihood of having older relatives/cousins organizing to chip in to help him that in my case as my HS GPA was much lower than that…even if it was at a well-known public magnet HS.</p>
<p>OP is not saying her kid isn’t worth it. That’s an interpretation from some posters. And some projecting, how this will affect the kid, going forward.</p>
<p>As a parent, there are plenty of times when you try to look ahead and weigh benefits. But you have to start with what you are dealing with. It can be equally “crushing” to set a kid up for X, because his brothers managed. You look at the kid.</p>
<p>Yes, some parents are unfair. Yes, some kids thrive. And some grow up with resentments. But, we are talking about OP’s kid and the family’s decisions. We also don’t know- don’t know- just how bad the finances are. Things changed for them, between S1 and S2, now S3. That happens.</p>
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<p>Speaking for my own comments, that’s not what I was saying at all. </p>
<p>Rather, I am stating that’s how OP’s S3 may feel on some level no matter how gently or supportive the OP tries to be because that way of thinking is very likely among most teens of S3’s age unless he’s unusually mature or altruistic even compared with most adults. </p>
<p>Especially considering he’s had two older brothers who went to topflight colleges and the OP mentions he’s still acts like a 15 year old. </p>
<p>There’s almost always going to be some comparisons done by both the siblings and parents…even if the latter doesn’t realize or tries to hide it. If one isn’t careful, relations may be damaged not only between parents and S3…but also the older siblings and S3. </p>
<p>There’s also the element that the youngest siblings tend to feel the need to prove themselves versus their older siblings…especially if the older ones are highly accomplished and parents/other adults heaped praise on them. I certainly felt that as one of the youngest in my extended family’s generation.</p>
<p>OP will need to deal with this to reassure S3 that’s not the case. </p>
<p>To the OP: How are S3’s relations with his older siblings? How well do they get along with each other? Do the older siblings use their greater academic achievements against their youngest sibling?</p>
<p>I know, cobrat. You have often made the point that you bloomed. As a statement of fact. I respect it. That’s what we hoped for, for D2. In fact, after several false starts, that’s what happened for my brother. </p>
<p>A family can only do what they can do. There are so many “potential resentments” that it’s pointless to try to start a list. We raise our kids to be resilient, understanding, focus on what they did get (starting with love, guidance and respect for them as individuals.) There have been many times when they did not get exactly what the other did. If we saw smoke signals there was resentment, we dealt with it, as caringly as we could- not always throwing money at it, money we did not have.</p>
<p>Remember, S2 got to a top flight by working the opportunities, making it happen. We don’t know if S3 has those resources. It is phenomenally challenging to be a good parent. Not to pull a wild card, but what if she sends him OOS and, that January, is posting thread about his challenges?</p>
<p>Again, I am not saying which decision is best. Just that OP is right to weigh a variety of factors. Make the best decision, ALL things considered.</p>
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<p>While an expensive sacrifice, one positive aspect of that happening to S3 if it comes to pass is the OP could effectively say “We gave you a chance and you blew it”…hopefully in much more tactful terms. Moreover, S3 won’t be able to avoid the complete responsibility at that point as it’s his to bear. </p>
<p>Knew several co-workers whom this fate came to pass during their first semester/freshman year and the parents gave them the following choices: find a full-time job and living out on their own or enlisting in the military. Most ended up doing the latter and one in particular bloomed to the point of making Sgt, boot camp drill instructor, and chosen for an enlisted slot at OCS for possible commissioning as an officer. </p>
<p>However, by the last part, he already put in 8 years in some harsh environments including the early OIFs and wanted to move on to start a family.</p>
<p>OP, it sounds like you are a different family, financially speaking, than when #1 went to school If there isn’t money, there isn’t money. A nice honest problem solving session with everyone’s cards on the table might help — what is he willing to do? what are deal breakers for you? enlist him as a partner and he will likely appreciate that no matter what happens. I throw out DH’s experience only because it really wasn’t about the money (my inlaws just wanted to spend it on themselves) but you seem to be in a different boat. </p>
<p>I like the gap year idea, as a way to get to the OOS, or CC as a first step. As someone has said, surely #3 is aware of the situation. No matter what, though, I’d let him pursue applying where he wants, you never know. And if you can’t afford it, at least they know they were accepted. Both my sons were very pleased to get into dream schools that we’d made clear were financially impossible.</p>
<p>Our son has done well academically and has a great job now and we were full-pay (mostly at an OOS public). We went with an OOS Community College with our daughter as she wasn’t putting a lot of effort into her studies and she didn’t know what she wanted to study. She has her AS now and we recognized that she made a major effort in her second year to improve. She is looking for work right now but going for her four-year degree is also on the table if she doesn’t find anything.</p>
<p>Money really wasn’t a factor in our decision to send her to CC. Her CC has a wide variety of vocational training and academic courses and she could sample from a wide variety of things. It is nice that CC turned out to be easily affordable though.</p>
<p>Financial circumstances have changed for a lot of people over the past five or six years so a child should be able to understand that things can change. Sometimes it affects younger children and sometimes older children. You ultimately have to live with the hand that you are dealt.</p>
<p>If the financial constraints are there, they’re there. But that’s not how this was couched at the start. There needed to be no discussion of the fact that S3 doesn’t have the grades of 1 and 2, (though apparently he works very hard at school), or that he has immaturity proven by his still keeping the blanket he had as a child.</p>
<p>The fact that the discussion from that start has been framed in who HE is, means to me that it’s not just that the money isn’t there–otherwise the rest wouldn’t need to be brought up. That’s why I’m not clear if no money is there even for the OOS referenced, or is it whether it’s worth spending or not (which I think comes down to, at least it could in his eyes, whether or not it’s worth spending it on him.)</p>
<p>What about an out of the box idea? Could the third child benefit from a gap year, to help him mature? And during that time, could he work, and the parents work, to put together the funds to help him go away to a college appropriate for him? And it wouldn’t be a terrible thing if the sibs realized that their parents had been generous with them, and if they helped out a bit. Maybe one could offer to pay for books, and another for transportation or with some spending money? I would think that the sibs themselves would want to help one another.</p>
<p>cobrat said it and others have hinted on it about setting up expectations.
A 3.8 student will likely have lower costs at school A than the 3.0 student might have at school A.
It sure would be a good idea for parents of high schoolers to express to their kid that if the kid intends to attend college, he needs to work for it now, because it doesn’t happen just by magic.
Similarly, students going to college on parents’ dime need to know before the first day of classes what expectations are.
Here, the Op might be willing to pay more if they were confident their s3 would would and earn good grades in the school of his choice. But we can’t predict the future. Student has shown so far evidence that makes Op skeptical.
Perhaps setting specific guidelines and expectations in advance would help s3, and make op more comfortable too</p>
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<p>If the community college is local and the son has a part-time job, then his educational costs should be near free to the parents with the $2,400 tax credit. He could take one, two or up to full-time trying out various things without the pressure of meeting the degree requirements of a four-year program.</p>
<p>I was the oldest of 3 kids. My parents paid for most of year one but then my brother ended up in college and so I had to take out loans and work full time to pay the majority of my college expenses. Then my other sister ended up in college so my parents had 3 kids in college at the same time. Both my brother and I helped pay part of my sister’s college. That’s what families do. I think S1 is the answer. What can S1 contribute to help S3 go to college?</p>
<p>I live in the northeast, where private undergrad can easily cost $60,000 a year (at academically mediocre schools). Statistically, if you look at UCLA’s HERI data, 8-semester degree completion is in the minority; many kids take 10 and 12 semesters. Our in-state directionals charge $25,000 per year if you’re on campus. So even in-state directionals can cost $100,000 to $150,000 per kid – and prices will rise every year. Some families can just pay it, and hope for the best. Many cannot. Including us. So our family must get creative, set a budget, and make it work – kids included.</p>
<p>The three big ways to save are merit scholarships, commuting to school, and judicious use of Community College at the beginning of the program. (We are fortunate to have a good academic CC here, where two thirds of the kids transfer on, even to Ivies. This is not the case everywhere.)</p>
<p>My kids were competitive swimmers from the time they were little. They learned early that if you wanted to go to Junior Olympics, you had to make the cut times. It wasn’t personal. You made the published cut, or you weren’t eligible. If your sister made the cut, she went, and she would probably come home with the sweatshirt. Mom could pick up a sweatshirt for you, too, but it wouldn’t feel the same, wearing it, if you hadn’t make the cut.</p>
<p>I don’t want to see anybody crushed. I know that some of the kids who didn’t make the cut had practiced harder than some of the more naturally-gifted kids that did. But life is like that, and life can still be happy and fulfilling. Kids need to learn to see things for what they are, and be resilient.</p>
<p>Young people are not always crushed by not getting what they want, and they can be naive and short-sighted. College admissions seems like everything when you’re going through an academically competitive high school. But college is really just a short phase of life. I’ve seen many twenty-somethings and thirty-somethings truly crushed, in adult ways, by too much debt. I’ve seen them locked into jobs they hated, unmarriageable, sick of living with roommates, and constantly turning over roommates as their less-burdened friends marry or buy their own homes. I’ve seen childbearing postponed for a long time. That’s all far more painful, and of longer duration, than four semesters at CC.</p>
<p>A tenth grader told me recently that she doesn’t want to go to CC because “it’s where poor people and stupid people go”. At our CC, at least, there are rich, poor, smart, stupid, young, old, driven, and dabblers – all there together, each finding their own paths. I know that this girl’s parents’ budget for her degree is less than $100,000. So this young lady is a snob who needs to recognize her local CC for the great opportunity it is – or needs to work very successfully toward a big merit scholarship.</p>
<p>As parents, most of us want to love our kids equally, and want money (which often seems to represent love) to be even-steven. But the real task is to give each kid as much as we can of what they need. If I buy my football player 3 slices of pizza, and one for my ballet dancer, I’m giving them each what they need.</p>
<p>Kids’ birth years are staggered, family financial circumstances vary over time as the kids come through the pipeline, and the outside world views each of our kids as individuals, without regard for their feelings. Some make the Junior Olympic cut, or win the merit scholarship, and some don’t. There are no easy answers. But I think that transparency with the kids, letting them in on the budgeting, warning them early on about the need to pay dues at CC or win a scholarship, may help to assuage feelings of frustration and disappointment.</p>
<p>Very well put Fieldsports!</p>