Feeling guilty for steering son to community college

Parents Forum
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<p>As a Mom of 3 with child 1 being high IQ and motivated and child 3 (who is only 12) as having ALWAYS shown no interest in academics, I understand your issues. My #1 has had many opportunities that #3 won’t have due to his academic strengths. But my #3 has many other gifts. ID your child 3 gift and remind the kid of them.</p>

<p>OP – You have been consistent with all 3 to limiting their debt. This provides “LIFE” opportunities down the road. It is a sound reason to continue this with child 3.</p>

<p>If CC is the way to do this, then gather all the “best” info on the CC to discuss with your child. Our CC has an excellent Arts program and great study abroad (which has scholarships and grants available for SA). Find what your CC has that could help turn your kid on.</p>

<p>On the flip side, if child 3 will be HS senior fall 2013 and I were the parents, I would permit an application to just see if the actual numbers equal the NPC.</p>

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<p>Yes, this is true. We will have to go into debt ( very scary at our ages). I hesitate because S3 has not shown a “reason” for needing to go to a 4 year. S1 and S2 both took CC classes ( that were transferable) while in high school and had several AP courses under their belts. Should we go into debt if S3 can live at home for 2 years and get his general ed out of the way?</p>

<p>Regarding sibling relations…
Older sibs have always found S3 a little annoying, yet have watched out for him. He has always acted very young. He seems to miss some of the subtle social cues ( not on the spectrum) that he is bothering people. Also, he has always preferred younger kids for his friends.</p>

<p>There are no “comparisons” because it is very obvious that he is out of their league ( this is kept as a positive…he is normal, they are just unusual. We tell him we are normal like him). Oldest has graduated and takes good care of little bro. He buys him very expensive “toys” and brings him stuff from his travels. S2 is still transitioning into young adulthood but treats little bro much better than he did when they were younger.</p>

<p>A gap year. Hmm…we’ll talk about that.</p>

<p>S1 helping out? I just cringe at admitting/acknowledging that a 20 something has more disposable income than we do…he really does have an excellent job ( and already out earns mom and dad) but also puts in the hours. I know if we asked he’d help ( without complaint). I just really don’t want to ask…</p>

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<p>This is very true!</p>

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<p>OP,
Will S3 still prefer to go OOS if he has to take on a larger debt than live at home and go to CC?</p>

<p>You seem to know all the pros, cons of the different choices, have you discussed everything with S3 to see what he has to say?</p>

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<p>^ I seriously don’t think he is capable of understanding the meaning of student debt. I don’t know if he can really grasp the future and his potential earnings. </p>

<p>Since starting this thread I have already told him it was time to make a list of costs and that we can’t put our heads in the sand and just hope it will all workout next year. He was receptive. When spouse mentioned the savings that would be incurred by going to CC and reduced debt for him…he went blank…like he couldn’t believe that was said.</p>

<p>He is open to going in state to a college we think is comparable to the OOS.</p>

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<p>You showed him what student loan debt level will cost him in monthly payments- for 10 years? While paying that, he’ll also have rent and utilities, payments on a car, social life, etc. I will say, there is usually a lot of growing, between now and December of senior year. Maybe brothers can help explain. You said he may not earn at their level; perhaps someone can show how all the expenses add up, at some lower earnings levels.</p>

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<p>Unless S3 is unusually oblivious for an adolescent/teen, he most likely knows where he stands and views the talk about “normal” and unusual" as a way for the parents to provide an increasingly unconvincing “White Lie” to him at best…or at worse a patronizing means to explain why the older bros are more accomplished and why he’s in their shadow. </p>

<p>He may not necessarily communicate it to the parents out loud…but he knows he’s being compared by the parents. And then there’s the added fact that other adults and society are comparing them whether it’s through GPA/Stats…or others’ admiration of the older bros’ accomplishments. </p>

<p>The fact the older sibs thought he was “annoying” and the second son treated him poorly when they were younger probably didn’t help matters. </p>

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<p>Granted, different families have different philosophies about asking older siblings/relatives to help out with college expenses. </p>

<p>In my extended family, there would be nothing wrong with a parent asking an older child who received parental financial support to attend college is graduated and established in a career to help out a younger sibling. </p>

<p>If anything, the fact the older child accepted that parental support means he/she also accepts the obligation to “pay it forward” for the immediate family…especially younger siblings provided their grades aren’t exceedingly bad. </p>

<p>A 3.3 HS GPA is far from exceedingly bad in my extended family…despite prevailing stereotypes of Asian-American families of expecting no less than a 4.0. On the other hand…a bordering 3.0 or 2.x HS GPA would be a whole different story. </p>

<p>On the flipside, my extended family would consider it wrong if a parent/extended family asks any child/younger relative to help out if they received no financial assistance for college from them…especially if it was due to underestimating their academic/maturity acumen during their late teen/young adult years. </p>

<p>Granted, such expectations were conveyed from childhood onwards so we knew the drill by HS. </p>

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<p>If the argument in favor of CC was sprung on 16 year old me*, I’d have reacted the same way.</p>

<p>To an average teen mind…especially a younger kid in the shadow of more accomplished siblings, it will be read as “parents are so cheap because they don’t have enough faith in me to believe I’m worth it”. </p>

<p>I think focusing the conversation proportionally much more on the positives like interesting academic programs and as little as possible on the costs/debt savings would have been more effective as a starting point. </p>

<ul>
<li>I started undergrad at 17.</li>
</ul>

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<p>Did you (i.e. the parents) start college in community college? If you tell him that you are normal as he is, then it may be easier for him to accept following the same path that you did.</p>

<p>Some very good students got their start at community college.</p>

<p>[At</a> just 14, UCLA math student Moshe Kai Cavalin has written his first book, ‘We Can Do’ / UCLA Newsroom](<a href=“http://newsroom.ucla.edu/portal/ucla/at-just-14-ucla-math-student-moshe-229359.aspx]At”>Newsroom | UCLA)
[Top</a> graduating senior a rags-to-academic-riches story](<a href=“Berkeley News | Berkeley”>Berkeley News | Berkeley)
[Aaron</a> Benavidez | Department of Sociology](<a href=“http://sociology.fas.harvard.edu/people/aaron-benavidez]Aaron”>Aaron Benavidez | Department of Sociology)</p>

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<p>I think you’ve got a bunch of different issues swirling around the family punch bowl, and it might help if you sorted out what belongs where.</p>

<p>1- What your son wants in a college experience; his interests, future plans, how motivated he is to reach those goals and how the parents can help him clarify what he wants for his education.</p>

<p>2- What parental support (financial, emotional, roof over his head for as long as he needs it, co-signing loans, helping him sort out possible GAP year, ROTC, or other ways to achieve his goals) is available.</p>

<p>3- The best communication strategy for keeping everyone on the same page and aligned (i.e. you’re all trying to do what’s best for this kid) without “using” your changed financial circumstances as a way to punish him for being the youngest (not his fault) and possibly, less motivated academically (not clear to me that this is the case- but it seems to be the accepted family narrative)</p>

<p>4- The role of the older siblings in this kids life for the next few years- do they want to advocate, advise, be helpful (perhaps diverting the cash spent on “toys” and gifts to the college fund?) or are they mostly launched and focused on their own lives?</p>

<p>I think what you’ve told us so far mashes these agenda items together in a way that if I were the kid in question, would have raised my hackles substantially. The kids academic performance up until now is a fact. Your changed ability to fund or borrow is a fact. The luck/hard work/innate smarts/motivation of the older siblings is a fact. But the conclusion you’ve come to about your youngest son is not a fact- it seems to be a tidy way for you move forward without actually clarifying what is possible/real/achievable for your son.</p>

<p>So my suggestion is to start with a clean slate. Maybe Community College is the answer- and maybe not. Maybe there is a commutable option for a four year college with your son living with another relative (or brother?) which is affordable but which offers what he’s looking for academically. Maybe there are cheaper out of state schools which can give your son the “real” college experience but are within your financial reach. And maybe your son would welcome a year off to work, get real world experience to see what he’s interested in doing with his life, and then re-think college with more maturity.</p>

<p>But you haven’t posted enough evidence here to suggest that you can “sell” the community college plan without fraying your son’s self-confidence. It’s not his fault that he comes along after two very accomplished kids. And presumably, after attending the HS that his brothers attended, he is aware 24/7 that he has been a crashing disappointment to his teachers, GC, and everyone else who knew/taught the bro’s.</p>

<p>So figure out what this kid wants out of college, and together, you guys can formulate a plan to get him there.</p>

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<p>^^I agree with that. My guess is the kid wants to go away to college…just like his brothers did. And I agree, if CC were just dropped from the sky, he probably DID have a visceral reaction. I also agree that there is a need to start fresh and to look at the different options with a different lens. I don’t know that CC would fray the third son’s self-confidence, more likely it would make him angry if it were simply dropped from the sky as the “only option.”</p>

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<p>Cobrat makes a good point about how much 3 can grasp about finances- AND how much he has likely already grasped, for a number of years, that he’s not what his brothers are. Then, blossom tops it off.</p>

<p>Imo, the “we’re normal, they’re unusual” can be replaced with a frank , direct praise for what makes him unusual, too, in positive ways.</p>

<p>^ Agree with “start fresh.” After you take a breath and get the new lens in place. Are there reasons why, with his positives, whatever college it is would be a great fit? (Fit includes your finances, but the presentation starts with what you say to the kid.) The way cores are handled, activities, opportunities to lead, something about his initial program that would make the cc or whatever it is, empowering and a great experience.</p>

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<p>As usual, an insightful analysis by blossom. Ending with a summary which I think is spot on.</p>

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<p>It appears that you have to sell CC as a potential solution and that may mean finding someone in your network that went to CC and was successful with it. CC gave our daughter the opportunity to prove herself and allowed her to take many interesting courses without pressure and financial risk.</p>

<p>On the debt load, it would be pretty easy to find articles on college-loan horror stories. I send those to our kids from time to time.</p>

<p>Our daughter knew that she wasn’t our son but she now knows that she does some things quite well once she puts in the effort. She also has some strengths that he doesn’t have - but the job market values his strengths more than her strengths. You have to make the best of your talents and abilities and I think that can help you find your talents and abilities in a low-risk way.</p>

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<p>Considering the S3’s reaction to emphasizing finances/debt from the father emphasizing those virtues in selling CC, I’m not sure more of the same would be effective in “selling” CC to him. </p>

<p>If anything, continuing to mainly emphasize this aspect may cause S3 to develop more vehement perceptions that CC is an unpalatable choice, however irrational it may be. </p>

<p>If one marketing approach falls flat with a potential client/customer, the last thing one should do is to repeat the exact same/similar approaches. </p>

<p>Countless examples of business failures galore could be found as a result of companies/business owners who failed to understand this logic.</p>

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<p>I think that it’s always good to have a healthy fear of debt and I’ve raised our kids with this value. We’ve had many dinner-table conversations on a variety of economic issues so the avoidance of debt and being careful with money in ingrained. They are more careful with spending money than I am which was a pretty big surprise to me.</p>

<p>If the stick doesn’t work, then it may be fruitful to explain why community colleges are a better value. Take a look at the state subsidy per student and compare it to the subsidy for state universities. Look at the relative value of tax credits for CC vs state universities (as a percentage). Take a look at the options that CC gives you that state universities don’t provide such as the vocational options. Some of those vocational options provide better job prospects than certain majors in four-year schools.</p>

<p>I have a friend that went to community college and then got a four-year degree. He invites me over to play at his private clay court at his secluded home in one of the most expensive towns in our area. He’s a big supporter of community colleges - does the OP know anyone like this in their networks?</p>

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<p>We all have to support ourselves in retirement, with savings. There are no loans for that. We will all be forced out of work at some point, even if we don’t want to stop, by illness or by clients and younger superiors losing interest in us. And for many of us, there is zero cultural expectation that grown children will offer financial assistance to elderly parents (or even much practical assistance). In my personal subcultural slice of America, setting budgetary limits on college is completely understandable, but turning to middle-aged kids for income in our elder years would be seen as a huge failure.</p>

<p>The OP’s dilemma, fundamentally, is how to budget for multiple kids, when financial circumstances have changed in the interim. It is tempting for the OP to over-spend (over-borrow?) now, to keep the peace among the kids, but it’s really important not to do that, especially with OP’s age and health concerns.</p>

<p>I completely understand the OP’s concern that S3 is not emotionally mature enough to really understand what borrowing will mean. I think many (or most) high schoolers have a gut-level understanding that goes about as far as “oh, I sign this paper, and then I get what I want”.</p>

<p>I admire Cobrat’s subcultural norm, of older sibs expecting to “pay it forward” by financially assisting younger sibs. In my own subcultural slice of the US, the request would be shocking. The older sibs would be expected to be saving their good earnings toward a house, retirement, and their own kids’ educations, and S3 would be the parent’s problem.</p>

<p>For those who are just starting with their first kid, if spending big on an older child’s education, it might be wise to characterize some portion of that money as a parent-to-child educational loan, rather than letting it be seen as the parents simply doing their duty. If S1’s dream reach school was $10,000 more per year than S1’s solid alternatives, and the parents paid it, the parents could have “lent” that difference (or some of it) to the kid, instead of just agreeing to absorb it as part of the cost of parenting. The loan could always be forgiven. But if the successful older grad could make a stream of even modest monthly payments when the younger sib is in school, it would help level the financial playing field among the kids. In my slice of American culture, if this early generosity had not been originally characterized as an intrafamily loan, it would seem improper to ask the older kid for help later.</p>

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<p>^ following cobrat (who I think is offering a great young-male perspective,) the old sales adage is: find out what they think they want, then show them how this deal meets that. </p>

<p>Ie, how it makes that client a winner. Or at least, feel like one.</p>

<p>Imo, a lot of kids want a college that they can have some pride in, even when it is a tier or two down. Some bragging rights. (I’d guess we’ve all seen this countless times.) Sell it as “we think this is best for you and us,” and you risk missing that. </p>

<p>From 3’s pov, you may need to change this from glass half empty (where parents are pushing me and why) to glass half full. In ways that do mean something to him.</p>

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<p>I think that there’s also a selling job required. Chance, luck and fortune or the opposite can strike at any time. It could have been that the parents didn’t have the resources to support college for the older two kids but then had a windfall so that they could have supported college for the youngest.</p>

<p>I think that family support, whether from immediate family or extended family, is really helpful to all involved as we don’t know when we might need support from others. Our extended family is generally willing and able to help out though I think that everyone is loathe to ask for help from extended family. At least for monetary help.</p>

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<p>I understand this very well due to immediate family circumstances growing up. It’s one key reason why I turned down admission to a university where I’d have to cough up $23k in loans/my own pocket. Money I didn’t have and more importantly, money I didn’t think was worth what the university in question was offering even if I had the money. </p>

<p>However, I’ve found people who can’t grasp finances/debt…even older adults are exceedingly hard to bring around on this subject. </p>

<p>Hence, my feeling that it may better to take a different tact which emphasizes the positives of particular CCs…like academic programs or examples of successful alums as other posters including you have pointed out.</p>

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<p>Regardless of where the money comes from-- I still think the fundamental problem is the starting point, i.e. “how do you solve a problem like S3” (sorry Sound of Music) and not, “how do we help S3 meet his life’s goals”.</p>

<p>I don’t blame the kid for digging in his heels and deciding that the parents are embarking on a campaign to park him in Community College because he’s the dumb brother. Sit down with him and figure out what he wants- and then Community College, no loans (or a lighter loan burden… I’m not sure this kid is going to end up with a BA with zero loans) becomes a vehicle to an end, not the solution in and of itself.</p>

<p>But keep pushing CC as the one and only solution- boy, what a year you guys have ahead of you. Unless your son’s career plan involves sitting under a bridge and pan-handling, taking a “no loan” stance is probably unrealistic and unproductive. I know teachers, ministers, pharm techs, RN’s and social workers who are all paying off their loans on time (and some, ahead of time with good planning and frugal living) and none of them regret having borrowed for their educations. The media likes to push the narrative of “borrowed 200K to go to a third tier law school after getting a degree in Leisure Studies via loans and now can’t get hired by Walmart” but that ignores the millions of young people who are working in gratifying jobs which they simply could not have gotten without loans.</p>

<p>So dial it back, and ask your son for a sit-down.</p>