<p>
</p>
<p>An interesting read. Just keep in mind that most everything has changed in the 20 + years since this data was taken. Good history lesson.</p>
<p>All right, my apologies.</p>
<p>USNA69--yea, I think the study was done in abt 1998. I thought the most interesting part was the survey results of actual pilots in the Air Force at that time. Their perspective being unique in that they actually were already perfornming the duties discussed (men and women) and how their perceptions were different.</p>
<p>hornetguy:
[quote]
JustAMom, I get the impression that you are viewing us as some kind of chauvanists?
[/quote]
Not at all.<br>
I was trying NOT to put words in your mouths.</p>
<p>I am curious as to why approx 20% of males USAFA cadets thinks that WOMEN do NOT belong at the AFA.
I was just curious if all of these men came to the academy knowing that women would be there with that perception. Or do you think that these men developed the perception that women don't belong after they became cadets?
Anyone feel free to chime in here - I won't crucify you -trust me.</p>
<p>As far as the question of different standards for men and women - this is not a new issue. This has been around for 30 years and not just in the academies but the military as a whole not to mention police and fire departments. It was controversial then and I am kind of surprised that it is controversial at the AFA now.</p>
<p>I get the feeling that this is an issue with the males cadets at AFA and I am not sure if it is an issue with male cadets at USMA or USNA. If that is the case - I wonder why?</p>
<p>I usually avoid the USNA and USMA CC forums and I am reminded why by this thread. The USAFA forum has typically been a place that doesn't really descend to these places. The now upperclassmen from 2010, current doolies, occasional 2009 and 2008 Cadets, and a few parents have tried to be a guide for interested high school students. The heady social discussions dominated by parents who usually post at Navy or Army. It may be gamey and fun, perhaps people tired of the exercise on the Navy & Army forum, but the Air of Superiority I have seen here in the past few days has not come from the USAFA cadets, but our visitors from the other boards. As G4C said can we all just wait for the movie...........</p>
<p>Wow - that was unduly harsh - this has been a rather civil discussion, I thought. I haven't seen any Air of superiority - I have a lot of respect for the AFA and the cadets who attend there. My daughter goes to school at MMI and has made some good friends with other female students who will be cadets at AFA next year.</p>
<p>I dont see this discussion decending anywhere. It sort of reminds me of those Sunday dinner conversations my father insisted on having after dinner when I was a kid - although I haven't seen anyone storm out of the room in a huff yet.</p>
<p>I do hope the movie is a positive portrayal of the women involved. As movies go - I am not sure if it would be documentary style, historical fiction or what.
There needs to be a plot and conflict and a conclusion.<br>
I hope the theme is not one of - "we let women into the academy now let's see how they destroyed it". Although if 1/5 men there think women don't belong - that may be the case.
Obviously, those women went through a very difficult time and so did the men - that was over 30 years ago. Hopefully, the AFA has adapted and moved on with the change and the movie will show this.</p>
<p>"Hopefully, the AFA has adapted and moved on with the change and the movie will show this." an example of the Air of Superiority. I know it has been civil, I wouldn't expect anything less from the Cadets I have seen replying to the implications that they are somehow trapped in a women hating institution. I have a daughter there now and it is not her impression of the school. Again I know this happens on the USNA forum and have seen people avoid it for that reason. I am one.</p>
<p>Well, this thread went from a discussion of a movie, to commenting on past history, to current issues, then jumped to historical studies of pilots, to arguing if we are being civil...</p>
<p>My intention was to comment that I hope the Academy will still be portrayed in a positive or, at least, neutral light, despite past problems.</p>
<p>After reviewing a bit, I would like to see the poll of USAFA cadets that was done. In my time here I have never heard of such a poll or been part of a poll. Where is this 20% number originate from?</p>
<p>JAM, the attitude, I suspect, developed while people were here. Speculate as people will, I don't think any one factor like poor leadership or arrogant men can solely define the reason for the problem since a single issue leading to the problem could be solved rather efficiently. </p>
<p>I know of a former Col who was class of 1979 who was a 3 dig as the first females came in. His frustration was that they were isolated in part of the dorms away from everyone and never alluded to being upset with having females entering. He wanted to see them with the squadrons as it should be (and is now). While the change may not have been very welcome (as I suspect since people are usually resistant to significant change whether racial, gender, or new policy in general!) the cadet wing accepted it and went on to graduate future female generals and to have females in significant cadet leadership positions! I hope the movie will show this process and I think it has a great potential to put USAFA in a great light for overcoming the challenges of a big change in the institution. When is this movie slated to release again?</p>
<p>
From a speech by Air Force secretary James G. Roche</p>
<p>
[quote]
As recent surveys have shown, changing attitudes will be something we can't solve in a matter of months, and significant problems still exist. While I feel confident that we have assured the safety of our cadets, it is disturbing to read in our latest cadet climate survey that more than 20 percent of our male cadets believe that women do not belong at the Academy. This calls into question our admissions procedures. More disturbing, these attitudes seem to have spread as cadets become more senior over time.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Am I reading this article correctly, it's from 2003? It seems that this "recent survey" is from 2003 or earlier. I think that 75% of those taking that survey are no longer in the AFA, correct?</p>
<p>There was a baseline study in 2003, and another study in 2004 that included the classes up to '08.</p>
<p>Interesting reading...I also noticed that the older classes showed more negativity toward women. I have not seen any more recent stats, but I would guess that the trend is going in the right direction.</p>
<p>ds52262:
Oh gee - sorry you took the quote that way - I would have said that if the movie was about USMA or USNA - </p>
<p>ds52262 and ramius - it is great to hear that the attitude has been changing recently - this should be encouraging news to our nations bright, athletic and talented young women who would be future cadets. </p>
<p>hornetguy:
when women were admitted to the service academies it was one big "social" experiment. No one really knew the "right" way or "wrong" way to do it.
If mistakes were made - hindsight is a wonderful thing - I certainly would not fault the decision makers if they made the best decision with the information they had available.</p>
<p>More than the movie being positive or neutral - I would like to see it be truthful. Not exaggerated in any one direction. If there were tough times and it sounds like there were - the happy ending would be to show that the institution has adapted to the change and is turning bright young men and women into awesome 2nd LT's in the Air Force.</p>
<p>i like lamp.</p>
<p>the following is part of an article released by ABC 7 (Denver, Colo.) 11/06/2007</p>
<p>"The sign (Bring Me Men) will be temporarily reinstalled or recreated for a scene showing women arriving for basic training, co-producer Charles Morrison and producer-director Frank E. Johnson said Monday. </p>
<p>Johnson and Morrison (the directors) said the film will depict hostility women faced from some male cadets, although they said their interviews with cadets from that time -- which helped them create the film's fictional characters -- didn't uncover any physical sexual abuse. </p>
<p>Morrison said women were called names, and Playboy magazine photos were placed on some walls, but the women countered with photos from Playgirl." </p>
<p>-it'd be cool to get to see the ramp with "BRING ME MEN" on it. i hope its reinstalled and not added digitally</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Why? </p>
<p>(added to make the 10 character minimum post)</p>
<p>Because it's historical. That's how the ramp was for 90% of the time USAFA was an institution, and it's something all the graduates we get to talk to reference and talk about.</p>
<p>Has nothing to do with our attitudes towards women.</p>
<p>Hi!</p>
<p>I'm a girl.</p>
<p>And a cadet.</p>
<p>So here's what I think about all of this.It really bothers me when people decide to base their opinions of the Academy off of stories they read in the Gazette, when they don’t even know what the atmosphere here is really like. The Academy is not comprised of a bunch of rapists and chauvinistic pigs. It is a male-dominant environment here in the sense that the wing is 80% male. But there are a lot of real gentlemen here, the kind of people who open doors for women even though we're wearing uniforms too. And when ds52262 says that it will always remain a male-dominant environment, he means that the male-female ratio will likely always be a little skewed. However, I can attest to the fact that this doesn't mean that opportunities are limited to women here. I'm Vice President of my class. There are opportunities, and people aren't usually that gender-biased here in that regard, at least in my opinion.</p>
<p>As far as fitness standards go, I was on recondo at the very beginning of the semester because I was basically graded unfairly on the PFT during basic training. I can max the sit-ups, pushups, run, get 3 pull-ups, and jump 6’6” now. I can validate the AFT. But that being said, if I were to score a perfect 500 on the PFT as a woman and then had those figures converted to the men’s scale, I would barely be passing. That’s a pretty decent difference. But then again, like hornet pointed out, there are a great deal more women on recondo than men in proportion to the Academy's composition, which is a good reminder that the standards right now are still a challenge for many. Not all of us are meant to be the brawn of the pack. Women are built differently and thus in general have a different physical capacity than the men here, but for the most part, girls that use that as an excuse for mediocrity are the exception rather than the rule. Also, some women do struggle with staying fit because of the meals that are served in Mitchell Hall (intended for football players)... it can cause weight gain if you don't exercise a lot.</p>
<p>And I personally would love the Bring Me Men sign to be put back up. It's part of this place's history! I know that we have to be politically correct, especially now because of the "scandals" that have gone on, but in some ways I think some of the results have been unfortunate. Like having 5 rape briefings a month during comm's time after lunch. I understand people need to be informed, but honestly, I feel like public perception has skewed the Academy in some ways.</p>
<p>We're not being discriminated against here. Really. And I love the Academy. Restriction and all. :)</p>
<p>i would like to see the ramp as it was meant to be before this "PC" crap came in. regardless of thoughts, male is used generally when more than one sex is referred to. learn another language, like spanish. if there's a group of guys and girls, you use the masculine ending. period. its not sexist, its life.</p>
<p>or change it to "BRING ME WOMEN". especailly if they're models. that would be good ;)</p>
<p>
<p>Has nothing to do with our attitudes towards women.
</p>
<p>I hear you. We have a similiar situation down here in the South with those pesky old PCers and our display of the Stars and Bars. Glad to see you are on board. I'm sure you would have no problem with a AFA cadet furling the old battle flag at the head of his bed there at the academy?</p>