<p>I agree with Xanadu.. You really should negotiate before getting to campus. Although there is something to be said for getting in someone's face.</p>
<p>Sometimes you DO get more bees with vinegar than with honey.</p>
<p>Some nice people can sound testy in their emails, but they must have a hard job there. I can't agree more with some of the opinions of Williams finaid, and their attitude. It must be hard to answer to Williams claims that "If you get into Williams, you can afford Williams", also claims about the loan balances of its students--less than $16,000-give me a break!!</p>
<p>We also felt very misled about the ultimate cost and we would not have allowed our child to apply if we slightly understood their concepts of aid and their appetite for parent's borrowing power. We still can't figure out how they evaluate future aid, and our child must pass on Williams, not because of the school, but because of their opaque aid policies. What a shame!</p>
<p>The fin aid staff are unable to assist with parent's planning for the cost- they won't answer legitimate questions about future years. We will not be victims of bait and switch nor are we naive purchasers. When selling a $120,000 plus item, knowledgeable consultants should be employed by the purveyor.</p>
<p>negotiating with the finaid office was certainly one of the most unpleasant experiences ever</p>
<p>and i thought Williams didnt give loan to student whose parental income is below $20,000. alas! i thought wrong.</p>
<p>I wonder if the aid packages differ between internationals and domestics??</p>
<p>I have seen a lot of mention of great fin aid for international students. Not to be xenophobic, but are a lot of schools giving major financial aid to international students? Why? Are free educations available overseas to Americans? Is it worth it to take a loan out to allow a non US student to go to school here free? Just curious about thoughts on it.</p>
<p>That's why it's such a great privilege to be admitted to a US college with aid, as an intl. but in reality, i think less than 9% of all the aid available goes to intls. besides very few colleges are need-blind for intls...it's a really complicated issue, but i think that's what makes the US so special - providing opportunities to others from all nations, and i think that's something to be really proud of as an american. </p>
<p>on the other hand, these institutions are private and i think they have money given to them specifically for intl students. that aside, many intl students contribute to society during school and after graduation...</p>
<p>but all these are just flimsy arguments. i'll just conclude by saying that it's a great privilege to be funded to study in the US. it's a life-changing experience...</p>
<p>Contrary to what some people post here, if you really want to get a better financial aid package then it is in your best interest to appear to the financial aid officers in person. Regardless of what you may have received in the mail from the financial aid office, if your family truly cannot afford the estimated financial contribution, then the financial aid office must award greater financial assistance. I'm not making this up. If your family has, or will not have any significant changes in their income, sending letters to the financial office asking for more money is completely futile.</p>
<p>thanks creon448. will certainly be looking forward to seeing paul boyer in person</p>
<p>MickeyD:
I personally don't understand why intl students believe they are entitled to a free ride at a private US college; many middle class US families take on enormous loads of debt so that their children may afford the excellent education at an institution such as Williams. And these middle class students are as qualified -- if not more so -- than intls... from families who assume the responsibility of providing a first-rate educational opportunity for their children. Yet these US children do not camp out on the doorsteps of the finaid offices to demand more "free"/grant aid -- maybe domestic students are selling themselves short by not displaying the same self-righteous claims of entitlement...</p>
<p>Well, I speak for myself here, and not for other intls, but i guess they all feel the same way. first, i never believed i'm entitled to a free ride at any US college, and i really meant that it's a privilege and an honor to be admitted in the first place, aid aside. williams has promised to be need blind to intls and to meet their full demonstrated need, and how they determine that is left to them. and of course, there will be disappointments here and there, and we were voicing our grievances.</p>
<p>according to the info for intl admitted students i received, only 7% of the student body at Williams is foreign. that indicates how much intls get on the whole. in case you were reacting to creon448's response, with all due respect, he's a US citizen and not an intl.</p>
<p>in my family's case, we'd gladly have taken up loans, but that's only available for US citizens. also got a brother in college in usa, no aid, just a little scholarship, and we pay heavily. my family has made the tough decision to send me to williams just because they realise the better education i'd get. i'm getting zero aid.</p>
<p>and with all due respect, you assume that intl families are not so much committed to funding their children's education to the best of their ability. there are many of us, even regardless of our respective aid awards, whose families are going to struggle to pay to send us to Williams. </p>
<p>and finally i'd like to note that EVERYONE admitted to williams is qualified. and to tell the truth, it's much harder for intls, because only 8% of intl applicants got admitted this year, so it's even more competitive. it's hurts to see that you think that intl admits are less qualified than their american counterparts. we've all worked so hard to get to this stage, and we're proud of our achievements.</p>
<p>Well.. JRock, I agree that international students should have the same educational opportunities as domestics. Where you're born shouldn't dictate what you can achieve.</p>
<p>That said, admission to Williams is NOT necessarily more difficult for internationals than domestics. The acceptance rate for internationals is quite a bit lower than for domestics; however, the two applicant pools look very different. A strong command of the English language is essential for a student to maximize the value of her Williams education. Williams does not have the resources to provide intensive English training, ensuring that the verbal/written abilities of exceptionally talented international students are "up to snuff." In other words, some international students would likely have gained admission to Williams in a heartbeat if they grew up in an English speaking environment. Insufficient preparation in English language/writing at the secondary level serves as an automatic "out" for many brilliant international applicants, who are likely academically stronger than their admitted domestic peers. Hope that makes sense.... All of the computer programming that I've done since Williams has really had a negative impact on my writing.... I should be talking about the verbal abilities of international students??? Some of you need to sit down with me, and remind me how to make coherent, fluid arguments :-)</p>
<p>Ok.. I'm rambling now.. Back to work...</p>
<p>They only sense of entitlement i'm sensing here is from weird people attacking someone for trying to see if they can get a better financial aid package. I really hope those of you attacking jrock are not students - one is a mother, I gather, and that students at williams are nothing like you. seriously, get a grip on yourself.</p>
<p>to Jrock:
ya, I'm attending Williams. looking forward to meeting you guys there!! just don't be overwhelmed by the "debate" here and forget about the greatness of the college..</p>
<p>
[quote]
They only sense of entitlement i'm sensing here is from weird people attacking someone for trying to see if they can get a better financial aid package. I really hope those of you attacking jrock are not students - one is a mother, I gather, and that students at williams are nothing like you. seriously, get a grip on yourself.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>xanadu83: I for one was not attacking Jrock -- just responding to MickeyD's request for opinions. "Get a grip on" yourselves and stop acting so paranoid, or others may wonder why you are so uber sensitive...</p>
<p>Personally, I found the FinAid office to be very willing to work with me and sort out my aid issues; luckily, I didn't face any of the problems with Boyer that other intls here have reported.</p>
<p>As for the intls aid thing: I can sympathise with US students and parents who feel that their interests are being overlooked in favour of intl students...but in all fairness, I believe most elite schools like Williams have a "intl/diversity quota", so it's unlikely that US students would receive more aid if it weren't for us needy intls. Also, I'd like to reiterate that we do not feel ourselves "entitled to a free ride"...like JRock said, it is an honour and a privilege. We do not "camp out on the doorsteps of the finaid offices to demand more "free"/grant aid " just because we think we deserve more; most of us do actually NEED it to be able to attend Williams. Every family has a different financial situation and some of us come from Third World countries with difficult economic conditions that place restraints on us.
However, it's important to remember that we have all worked very hard to get here, and we naturally resent the implication that middle class US students are MORE qualified; that's not to say there aren't a lot of highly talented people slipping through the aid net, but really...a super- selective college like Williams surely uses a rigorous process to choose students it deems "qualified", and I think we should all respect that choice. </p>
<p>miamoo, JRock...glad you guys decided in favour of Williams inspite of the finaid problems...look forward to seeing you guys there!</p>
<p>Williams should be able to admit and provide aid to anyone they want to. It just seems that their claims of Financial Need aid are a bit hollow. </p>
<p>No one really knows what they actually do, you just know your own situation.</p>
<p>They, and apparently many other schools, believe that there is more $ out there than there is. Given the amount of Federal money they accept, it is just interesting that they are allowed to use it to finance international students but ask US students to go to the bank....</p>
<p>Jrock, Consider:</p>
<p>7% of Williams 2000 students= 140 intl students, (1860 domestic students for argument's sake)</p>
<p>140 Intnl Students X $45,000/year X 4 years = $25,200,000
1860 Students X $13,548 Avg. Loan Balance after 4 years= $25,200,000</p>
<p>HMMM...</p>
<p>Jrcock:I agree 100%,</p>
<p>we ints also have exchange rate troubles...$6000 may not be a big deal for an american, but for someone from a developing country with a poor exchange rate, its a helluva lot</p>
<p>oh and williams has been extremely generous with financial aid...i have no complaints really regarding the package they sent me...but i don't think it's right to say that we (ints) believe that we are "entitled to a free ride"...we most certainly don't think so. and do consider what may be comfortably well off in, say, India would be not so well off in the USA...given the exchange rate of Rs 48 to $1...and thats still OK...there are countries with far worse exchange rates.
anyway, i think i'm digressing too much.</p>
<p>well said, Fida'10.</p>
<p>Mickey D, that's curiously interesting but that's based on the assumption that all the intl students are fully funded, which is not be the case. That said, i feel williams is one of the few colleges that give students all grant, but then there might be some intls for which loans are part of the package. for instance, my wesleyan aid award included about 4.5k loan....a friend of mine received 7.5k as loan from northwestern. he's settled for caltech, but then, some loan is still part of the package..</p>