Financial Aid Unfair? psh, It's Absurd!

Paying for College
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<p>Jazmine, the reason your friend got more money than you did is because your family made more money, has more assets, but mainly because they straight out made more money. When you give out ANYTHING on a need based structure, you look at income in a period of time and assets. You don’t look at how the income was used. To go through that sort of assessment and judgement would cost time and money and getting any kind of agreement would be arbitrary.</p>

<p>The line has to be drawn somewhere, so it is at the income level. At $130K a year, yes, your family was expected to put some of that away for college for you as part of taking care of you. They could not possibly have missed all the “save for college” messages. They just let the “it’ll take care of itself” measures over ride them. And YOU should have been saving too. With past,current and future assets in the form of savings, working/budgeting, loans on your part as well as your parents, is how college is supposed to be paid. You think the line should be drawn higher than $130K a year? Well, look at what people are making in this country. I guarantee you that if your friend is getting financial aid that is a lot more than yours from the same school, unless there is some merit issue in the mix, his family income is lower, a lot lower. And owning a house does not hurt you on the FAFSA calculations, in fact, you get to shield the equity in that house as opposed to money sitting in accounts or inverstments. On top of that, do remember that your family is getting a government break in terms of that mortgage they are paying. The same amount in rent does not get that tax deduction.</p>

<p>So if you want to compare apples to apples here, find someone who makes what your family does and has the same assets. The EFC does not care how you spend your money for the most part or so it will come out the same I don’t see what you see unfair about the financial aid process.</p>

<p>Where there is unfairness is that there ARE families who make what your family does, and less, and they have managed their money better, saved for college or had better luck in terms of job history and not have adverse financial events, they are more informed about college and take care of their kids better that way. It’s unfair when kids have parents that won’t pay for college when they can, or can’t pay because they did not manage their money the right way and did not plan. But the parents are the ones on the hot seat for that one, just as they are for anything they could not , did not provide for a kid. </p>

<p>When my kids were little, we sent them all, probably foolishly, but we did sent them to private school. Because we had a lot of kids in that preK-12 range, it cost us a lot of money, so we did not have as much as most of our neighbors even though we made more money than most of them did. We lived in a neighborhood below what our income would have dictated because we had that private school drain that we were insisting upon paying. Even doing that, we had less money. We had less to put into the lawn, our cars were old junkers (still are), our furniture and decor was not as nice, and my kids did not get or have a lot of the amentities those kids did, in part for that reason. Other reasons involved too, but we had a huge chunk of income gone to private schools. And you know what? There were some folks that resented that we could afford to send our kids to private schools!! Yes. Mind blowing to me.</p>

<p>Of course, that also meant we saved less for college too. And when we bought a costly house, that meant less money for college too. Ironically, if we had just stayed in a cheaper house and sent our kids to public schools and just blown our money each year, spent it on eating out vacation, clothes, stuff, cars, all the shiny pretties, we’d have more for college. because the way it works, you can STOP that kind of spending and funnel the income to other venues. When one invests in a house, a neighborhood,private schools, activities for kids, you can’t just stop and divert those monies elsewhere. You are stuck unless you want to pull a kid out of a school you have committed and if he loves it and is doing well, may not be a great parenting choice especially if its to pay for future school–the logic starts getting a bit convoluted here Also, you don’t just up and sell a house. The market could be lousy for houses of that price level, there may not be much out there for the lower levels, your credit may not get you another house, and it costs to move and can take time before you realize any savings from it. Also a house is more than just an expense but is the home environment and can be an important tenet of your life,living in a safe, clean convenient place.</p>

<p>So you pays for for choices and you gets the drawback so associated with it. It’s not fair. Nope. It’s not fair. It’s not fair that someone burning his money will be in better shape to take on a future expense than the someone who puts it into a good home environment that requires a long term commitment. </p>

<p>But what you are saying makes no sense. Someone who makes $130K does not make the cut for financial aid to send their child away to sleep away state school. The cut off for aid is below that. Does that seem so far fetched to you? The money is not there to give out for someone whose family makes that kind of money, and they do take federal taxes into account, by the way–they subtract that out from the gross. Where do you thing the money should come from? I think by the way, that the cost for a state school is way too high and if I had my way would make it much lower, taking money away , not from students like your friend but from those using it to go to private colleges. That I think is an issue.</p>

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<p>02123, you did not HAVE to take out those loans to get any college education, but for one priced that high. For those who are willing to pay, the price is way up there, and only a few schools guarantee and meet full need even by their own definition.</p>

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<p>O21234 I certainly understand what you are saying have grown up in poverty with divorced parents myself. I think you are doing the right things to work hard and save money. Unfortunately we are usually the victims of our parents choices until something about the way college funding changes. I had to take a GAP year and then actually ended up taking 10 years to complete my bachelor’s degree. I worked and fought my way into the middle class and it was a long slow process. I wish you the best and admire your willingness to work hard and improve your life.</p>

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<p>It would have taken me a month and a half to make enough money to pay for one class in a 8 hour pay. That is not including any taxes, bills, food, gas money, or anything else! How is someone supposed to go to college on minimum wage without the help of financial aid?</p>

<p>I take full responsibility of my loans and wish I would hace worked so they didnt accumulate so high.</p>

<p>Dont start judging the poor, they are only trying to lead to financial healh for themselves.</p>

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<p>Cptofthehouse: no I didnt abd I take full responsibility. I will work and pay the loans off. That has always been my plan. </p>

<p>Octoberdana: thank you. Im sorry it took 10 years to finish a bachelors. Im going to have to stop befor I finish my bachelors. Just hope I can eventually finish. I wish you luck as well. It sounds like you’ve worked hard.</p>

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<p>My mother always said that doing well is its own reward. That’s what we’ve told our kids, too.</p>

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<p>My brother joined the military to help pay for college, My dad worked full time to pay his expenses, my daughter earned an education stipend with Americorps.</p>

<p>Or you can sit & whinge about how “its not fair”. It depends on how badly you want it. Set your sights on your goal, not on the obstacles.</p>

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<p>Wolverine-
I’m not saying that there aren’t other options. There are always options in life. But that doesn’t mean that people who worked hard should be punished for trying to achieve(the unrealistic) “American Dream.” If you plan on going into certain fields-business, for example- where you go for undergrad matters. Going to a CC for two years will not put you at an advantage compared to someone who went to Yale(although I am a firm believer in that it doesn’t matter where you go, but what you do while you’re there, but you have to admit that employers look at these things.) All I’m saying is that this is nothing new- the middle class has been carrying this country for a very long time, and still gets no help. </p>

<p>And people on this thread have made the argument that poor people have to take out loans in order to afford college since it is a part of their aid package- how do you think the middle class is able to afford to go to most of these four year schools? Wolverine, you are right- I am not entitled to anything, and I am sorry if I came off as such, but the point is is that this system is not working, and something needs to be done about it.</p>

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<p>The system is working just fine for the administrators who run the system. they hire adjuncts and get rid of the tenured faculty. They charge kids for school based on what the parents earn and convince kids and parents that loans are financial aid for them and not for the schools, and they get to pay themselves millions of dollars for “running” these allegedly non-profit institutions into the ground.</p>

<p>The system works just fine for the decision makers. They are convincing an entire generation to pay years of upfront, potential consumer income into their coffers and acting as if they are magnanimously doing these kids a favor. Here! This is AID! just for you. ;)</p>

<p>Before you borrow money, ask yourself who this money is really aiding.</p>

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<p>Jazmine…Going to a state/public/smaller school is not a “punishment”, nor does it deny anyone access to the “American Dream”. Nor does having a piece of paper that says Yale or any other “elite” school guarantee you achievement of that dream. It’s EXACTLY that kind of thinking that leads families into taking out massive loans to send their kid to an “elite” school, only to find that their job prospects are (in the vast majority of cases) no different than any kids that went to the state school.</p>

<p>How do you explain all the CEOs/CFOs/high ranking executives in this country that DIDN’T attend “elite” universities as undergrads? The belief that you “have to” attend these universities to succeed simply isn’t true. Do “elite” schools give a student an “advantage”? In some cases and for some fields…maybe, but certainly not for EVERY student who attends those schools. If you believe that, you’re buying into yet another of the “lies” that you and the OP are so offended by. And for those cases where it MIGHT be true, exactly what price point would you put on that “advantage”? High 5-figure or low 6-figure debt? Do you REALLY think that “perceived advantage” offsets the smack-you-in-the-face REAL DISADVANTAGE of trying to pay off that kind of debt? </p>

<p>Once again…needs versus wants. This type of thinking is EXACTLY what continues to feed a system of rising costs that is obviously broken. As long as families continue to spend beyond their means for perceived benefit over real value the system will continue to be broken. Is it the fault of the schools, or the banks, or the government, or the families? The only correct answer is YES…they’re all to blame. It depends upon who is posting as to which of these entities they choose to place the most blame on. Only a blind idiot would try to absolve any of these groups.</p>

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<p>Jazmine, there are circumstances when a student does make out very well in the college world because his family makes very little money. That student whose family is deemed to poor to pay much or anything by a school that meets full need, and some don’t even give out loans as part of the package, is going to make out like a bandit IN THAT PARTICULAR SITUATION. I emphasize those last words because, truly very few would want their families to be in that income bracket except in that particular situation. It’s not like all is great, groovey and gravy to be low income. If it were, you and your parents would not be working to make the money you are. You don’t have to do that, you know. Anyone can just not try to make the money and settle for part time minimum aid work and then IF his kids get into a top school that guarantees to meet full need without loans, then the kid will make out. Can you imagine why we don’t have a lot of people aspiring to be IN THAT PARTICULAR SITUATION? The cost in other choices and standard of living is very high.</p>

<p>The reality is that if your family has more money, you are more likely to have resources to help you out on your loans. No guarantee of course. There are families who refuse to pay penny one for college even though they clearly have the money, and there are those who won’t help their kids out on school loans or anything. But usually, and we go by the usually, families, parents help out their kids. If not directly by paying their loans, in supplying shelter, picking up the tab for this or that, gifts of clothing and other things. The more money a family has, usually the more the kids get some benefits from having parents with that money.</p>

<p>My son lives not far from me and has his own place. Lives hand to mouth because he is a starving auditioning actor, but not gonna starve cuz mama here will make sure he doesn’t. I don’t pay a dime towards his rent directly, but that pan of lasagna, the box of tea bags,all the stuff I give and that he takes from here helps his bottom line. I also have him covered with health insurance and if push came to shove, I’d probably help him out financially. He has friends whose parents have zippo, zilch and zero to give. They don’t live close enough to even give them left over food, and they don’t have money to send them, not anything. In fact the parents may not be reachable half the time because their phones are shut off for lack of payment. Yeah, it can come to this. So it makes a difference having parents with the money. We paid for our son’s education so he has no loans. He has friends whose parents are paying of their kids’ loans. Some are paying a portion of it. Some none but are helping where they can. And some are so needy, they ask the kids for handouts. Not a direct income relationship but pretty danged close. There are also those who are paying their kids living expenses even after school, bought them a place to live. Those who have more, tend to give more. You can’t give what you don’t have. </p>

<p>So yes, it makes a difference what your parent’s income and financial situation is in terms of loans. I am very hesitant to recommend any kid with low income parents, with low EFC parents to borrow, because the needs do not end, but intensify when one gets out of schools, and those with loans and parents who cannot or will not assist with much or anything are going to be having a harder time than those who will. So that is an issue to take heavily into consideration. Also pushing parents who are in financial trouble already to take out PLUS or cosign private loans is not a good thing, even if such parents are willing. Parents in good shape and willing, that is a whole other story.</p>

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<p>Cpt and Wolverine-
I think you are missing the point of what I am trying to say, AGAIN. Middle class families- for the most part- don’t have all of this money to spend on college, and neither do poor families. BUT I think that colleges need to take into account many things other than income. If you are living in a certain area for example. Yes, you don’t have to live in a specific place, but there are many reasons why one may have to(relocation for work, having sick family members that CANNOT move, etc.) like I said, some families take care of relatives that are not their dependents but are their responsibility nonetheless.</p>

<p>CPT, you say that you paid off your kids education so they did not have any debt. That’s great for you. Doesn’t mean that everyone can afford to do that- just because my parents make 130k a year BEFORE TAXES doesn’t mean that I won’t have to pay back every single penny on my own after I take out loans, in addition to contributing while I am in school. My parents ask me for money NOW because we are in that type of strange financial situation. While it is not optimal, we get by. You are right- private school was a choice that you made, just like my parents chose to work hard in order to scrounge up money to send me to college. </p>

<p>Wolverine-
My parents did save for me to go to college but I believe they were misled. I tried to tell them how expensive college was(which they knew) and that financial aid really only helped the poor, but they believed the college FA officers who- when my parents consulted them- led my parents to believe that the colleges that I aspired to go to would be affordable(with some loans, of course.)</p>

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<p>Wolverine-
Many people have been successful by going to “regular” colleges. But what is to be said when even those aren’t affordable? I’m supposed to put out 30k a year to go to my state school? I wouldn’t even do that for Harvard. Go to community college? May not be the best thing for me, but I’d do it- but it’s almost 10,000 a year, which still isn’t affordable for my family. I could work for a few years, but in the field I want to go into , that would not be very feasible, considering I would need at least 10 years of schooling. Blame everyone all you want, but blaming everyone doesn’t solve the problem. And obviously, if there are so many people with the same issue that the OP is describing, then there is a huge problem.</p>

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<p>Jazmine, where to draw the line if you think $130K is not enough money to expect parents to pay for their kids’ education? We can’t control what people do or did with what they make and made. Trying to come up with COL and making special exceptions complicates the already complicated process more, and costs more so there is less money to give out. All of this has to be paid for. </p>

<p>Your problem is that your parents are not in the situation that most parents are at that income range. You can ask for a judgement exception from financial aid directors, and it might be granted if there is truly an overwhelming reason for this. Otherwise, it’s just too bad that your parent’s priorities and the way they handle money is not the way it is expected for someone wanting to send a kid to college. </p>

<p>Be aware that there will likely be less, not more money to throw at the situation. And any additional money will go to the bottom where truly the need is more. You’ve yet to come up with a suggestion that will help you other than enough money flooding the system so that you are covered or that your particular predicament is an exception, which I doubt it is. </p>

<p>As for them being misled, well, what on earth can one do? There is so much out there that one can read and check out the situation. The first thing they could have done is just look at the frigging prices and how much they were going up each year. That would be a pretty good sign as to what is happening. Yes, a lot of us did not believe they would go up this high, but that was what the trend was. </p>

<p>If your parents need money from you NOW to make ends meet, I don’t see how they have any to put towards your college costs. That dog don’t hunt.</p>

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<p>Cpt-
Didn’t say that they put a lot toward my education, but some. And I didn’t come here to ask for YOUR judgment on my situation, or how my parents handle their money, so thanks but I don’t need your help. I didn’t come here looking for sympathy, or an argument, but to support what the OP was saying with my own personal story. Yes, taking into account certain things would complicate the FA process but so what? A lot of scholarships ask about special circumstances, why shouldn’t financial aid documents?</p>

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<p>My state school (UNC Chapel Hill) was more expensive than Duke. There is definitely something wrong with our state colleges when a school meant to be somewhat accessible to all becomes restrictive.</p>

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<p>Jazmine, I support a lot of what is being said, particularly with the state schools Just take look at what I have to say about them in other posts. However, I can tell you that at your parent’s level of income, ain’t no way you are going to get the amount your family needs, not even at Harvard, not even my state where we have state plans. Though I agree that the $30K figure is way too much for a state school, any reform isn’t going to touch your situation. </p>

<p>Special circumstances are taken into account. You have to address them to the financial aid director of the school and they can change your status if it so warrants. As I said earlier, to have them in the app themselves just makes it more difficult and expensive to process, meaning LESS money to give out. Something tells me your story won’t fly anyways. But yes, people do get help with special circumstances. </p>

<p>What you are saying is that the formulas themselves are flawed, and that may well be, but even where the lines are drawn, and your family is above it for any in state school prices in any state, there isn’t enough. Not even close. And drawing it down isn’t going to help you with what your family gap is. So it’s an individual issue for you. We can’t afford to subsidize everyone and you are, from the info given ,well outside that circle.</p>

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<p>^Everything cpt said. You say you’re not trying to pass the blame from your parents to someone else…then you turn around and do EXACTLY that. People cannot be misled when they are informed and aware consumers. There is a wealth of information available to anyone who cares enough to look for it. </p>

<p>You and your parents didn’t utilize those resources. That was a choice you made…and it was a poor one. Do you seriously expect people to believe that $130K salary wasn’t enough to be able to save and afford $10K per year now? Do you think your family is the only family with additional costs of some sort? Gotta call complete shenanigans on that one as well. Your parents made poor financial decisions and didn’t prioritize your education over other CHOICES. Whose fault is that do you suppose?</p>

<p>I’ve never made the salary your parents make…nowhere close to it. Very few people make the money your parents do, yet somehow many of us have made CHOICES which have allowed us to provide opportunities for our children to attend college in some form or fashion. Can everyone afford to attend the pricey schools they think they want? Heck no!! But we get them the best education we CAN afford. The fact that your parents CHOSE to not give you more options is no one’s fault but theirs. The fact that they didn’t inform themselves better before starting this process is no one’s fault but theirs.</p>

<p>Yes, there is a HUGE problem with college costs…and many people with a fraction of the financial resources your family has have found ways to provide educational opportunities for their kids despite the problem. They found workable solutions through a combination of information, prior planning, and sacrifice. Your family opted for a different route. So be it…but don’t expect a pity party from people who have done a heck of a lot more with a heck of a lot less to draw upon. Any other issues you have need to be taken up with your parents.</p>

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<p>My state schools are reasonably priced as compared to many. I live in a very high cost area, way up there, top of the country, as well as world. But the EFC is calculated the same way here as it for those living in Mississippi where a nice home can be purchased for $60K. But even with the cost of our state schools the way they are, your family isn’t going to be able to afford you to go away there, and our state aid ends at the $80K a year mark as it does in CA another high COL state. So I don’t know what measure you are using that will subsidize a state school cost to what you and your parents want to pay. Not affordable by a long shot for any state. So THAT, is not going to happen, </p>

<p>But there are reforms that are possible where money being spent can be rechannele to and for the benefit of more people. It won’t help me, so it’s not a personal thing, but something I am looking at for the system as a whole.</p>

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<p>Ha! I thought OP was being satirical in the original post…</p>