<p>with fraternities and such it is hard to make broad based statements about them. Are there are lot of caveman like idiots running around in fraternities? Are some fraternities animal houses and the like? Yep. Are there fraternities that seem to uphold the ideals of what such a place should/could be? Yep to that as well. The real problem is the mentality that Greek life is a group above rules, above the law, where anything goes, and unfortunately Greek organizations as a whole seem to almost cherish being like that, being the bad boys and such (when I say organizations, I am talking national level). I can tell you from experiences being on student life disciplinary panels and such back in my college days, that the fraternity council seemed to spend a lot of time trying to cover up for what its members did rather than trying to reform what was going on, and to spend a lot of time accusing people of trying to destroy the frat system rather than realizing their members were doing a pretty good job themselves with what they were doing. </p>
<p>Whatever the truth of the original story was at UVA, whether the girl was lying or not, the fact that fraternities have the reputation they do, of bad behavior, the hazing deaths, rapes, you name it, said reputation coming from very real event, means charges like this are going to stick. In some ways, it reminds me of the priest abuse scandal in the Catholic Church, where defenders of the church point out that the percentage of priests accused of doing these things was relatively small…but what they forget is that the church’s own reaction to the crisis fed fuel to the fire, where the church leaders response was to cover up what happened, to deny what happened, and to protect the bishops and such that covered for the priests, rather than disciplining them. With the frats, I could argue that it is probably a lot more common for frats to be what you would hope they are, but that the bad apples have been allowed free reign by their fellow Greek groups, by their own houses, and often by the university system around them, and it has made them in the end seem like a bunch of goons and worse…It may not be fair to the good kids, but quite honestly, they need to clean house and make it clear that that kind of behavior is a thing of the past. </p>
<p>I totally dispute this reputation thing. The reputation comes mostly from movies and a false media narrative. How can any group manage its false, hyped or overblown reputation? It wouldn’t be that if they were actually in control of it. The UVA story is a big fat lie!! It was perpetrated against innocent victims. This is not a lesson we should heed regardless of the truth about it. We need the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. And, in this case, the liar and the media that negligently promulgated the lie because it fit their preconceived ideas should be shunned, shamed and ridden out of town on a rail. We need to start treating liars, crazies and idiots like what they are.</p>
<p>And yet, look at all the protesters getting national media attention, rioting and looting while being portrayed as victims saying “hands up, don’t shoot” which we now know from the evidence to be a lie.</p>
<p>So what is wrong in all of this? The same thing that’s wrong in everything else. Much of everything is based on lies.</p>
<p>I was in a frat at a top private college decades ago. I happened to transfer to another school, after a time, so did not continue for 4 years. At the time, it seemed like something fun to try and a way to meet people. Looking back,
like anything else it had good and bad points, but overall a negative in the educational system. It promotes
exclusion in the rush process, then preys on young person’s insecurities during pledging. Personally I was mature
enough to put all the attempts at hazing in perspective and not take it seriously, but this did turn more off to a more
serious involvement. When the President of my frat got and then lost a great post graduation job offer,
due to bad grades senior year, I kind of figured out as a freshman this organization was not here to promote
my purpose for attending college. It was a distraction, and not an honorable one. We did not charitable work at all,
it was all partying and having fun at the expense of freshmen. I was glad to transfer to a school where they
had indeed stamped out fraternity life. Had more and healthier fun after transferring.</p>
<p>And yet, I see that UVA won’t reinstate Greek activity even though the decision to cancel all Greek activity was based on lies.</p>
<p>Rolling Stone will survive to publish more phony, biased stories. Maybe Rolling Stone will be moved to the fiction section of most shops but I doubt it.</p>
<p>I’m sure the editors will live to edit once again and the writer will continue to write.</p>
<p>But Greek life is over at UVA. </p>
<p>They have to take the allegation seriously even if its a lie. </p>
<p>Sounds just like the Salem Witch Trials to me. Or, another inquisition. It shows how little we’ve grown in intellectual capacity, integrity, morality and honor. People are just slightly more sophisticated than our medieval predecessors. We mask our ignorance with an air of rationality which really isn’t there. Deep down, we are instinctual, craven and superstitious. Or, at least the professorial, political, journalism and UVA administration classes are. Is there no one to protest the injustice here? Woman lies, Greek life dies!!! Maybe that too harsh. Media lies, Greek life dies!!! Maybe that is where the blame for such idiocy lies. So, who are the idiots that read such tripe? Stand up, be counted.</p>
<p>Its late, I wish I could go to sleep and not wake up until honesty, humility, common sense and reason were restored to the intellectual life of America but I’m afraid that would be a Rip Van Winkle style nap.</p>
<p>There are 60 fraternities and sororities at Uva. They will not die quietly. I predict there will be law suits filed immediately by IFC/ISC/Pan Hell/ or the individual houses because they need to hold Rush in Jan. And I think the Greeks will win. They had no hearing, there is no evidence that there was any misconduct, the majority have not broken any rules or agreement with the school. If they don’t, then I suspect the Greeks will just go off campus, no longer be student groups, and figure out how to conduct all business off campus.</p>
<p>I am no fan of Greek organizations, but I am so glad they are taking action. What occurred was despicable and this sort of mess is precisely what some of us parents who posted on other threads about this topic predicted would occur. Colleges have no business trying to do the job our police and courts are far better equipped to do.</p>
<p>Requin – UVa only suspended greeks through the new year, hardly a death knell. And then only AFTER Phi Psi and the IFC voluntarily offered up a temporary suspension in response to the RS allegations. </p>
<p>UVa administrators can’t win – either they’re over-reacting or ignoring the problem. In fact they have shut down many fraternities over the years for specific bad behavior, without eliminating the whole system by association. I personally think this is the right approach. One was shut down in 2007 specifically in response to a rape allegation, investigation, and gasp! --due process. Just because the now discredited RS article says UVa has completely ignored the problem of sexual assault does not make it so. The media love to whip us all up with simplified, one-sided inflammatory pieces. It’s up to us to stop falling for it. The “pox” of drinking and sexual assault and bad behavior will not be eliminated by by shutting down all Greeks. See Notre Dame and USNA for examples.</p>
<p>Fraternity/Sorority activities were suspended through Jan 9, and I believe school resumes a few days after that. Those are the days used at least for Sorority Rush, and perhaps for fraternity rush also. A thousand women take part in rush, not counting those already members of sororities. Usually they use school facilities to assemble and for the back office part of rush (meetings, matching, computers, registration, payment collection) even if off campus houses are used for the actual parties. There is big money involved here, and the Greeks aren’t going to back off.</p>
<p>I don’t think shutting down the Greek system for something alleged to have happened 2+ years ago was the correct move. They wouldn’t shut down all the dorms now if this kind of incident took place in the fall of 2012, wouldn’t cancel swimming for everyone if the swim team got into trouble, wouldn’t cancel all math classes if one class was found cheating.</p>
<p>The University should not rush to lift the suspension. </p>
<p>The University President Teresa Sullivan emphasized last week that the new focus on curbing sexual assault on campus, catalyzed by the article, shouldn’t be compromised because of the doubts over the victim’s account.</p>
<p>It is still too little and too late, and the school should continue a process that ensures a minimum amount of safety for all students at UVA and not simply please the vocal and well-heeled organizations. </p>
<p>@Mom2twins #108 - I think you might be missing my point. The university “only” suspended all fraternities for a couple months, in reaction to a magazine’s allegations against one of them, so it’s ok? Sorry, but that’s outrageous. You don’t punish a class of entities for the actions of one, and you don’t punish anyone without proof of wrongdoing obtained through a real investigation at which the accused is accorded its fundamental rights of presence, defense, witnesses, and process. That’s even clearer the case when the institution doing the punishing is the State. I don’t give a tinker’s dam for fraternities, but I care very much about justice, and what the university did here is disgusting. I hadn’t heard that this particular fraternity or IFC, whatever that is, had voluntarily offered to suspend themselves, but if that is true they were ill counseled.</p>
<p>Many of the fraternities will volunteer to do whatever the school asks while the investigation is going on. I think this group, alums and actives, were shocked by the story and thought that if it is published there might be some truth to it so let’s just shut down and figure out where we go from here. The university then suspended all greek activities through Jan 9, which I think must be the day they return to campus. Don’t think anyone agreed to that, and now that some time has past and they are organized, they are fighting back. They have time and money invested in these organizations and they want to be reinstated to a full student organization. It is not unusual for a particular house to be suspended or have a charter pulled by either the IFC or the national organization. It can be for a violation like drinking or because membership has fallen.</p>
<p>The IFC is Inter fraternity Counsel, which is the group that coordinates the different social fraternity groups on campus. ISC is for the social sororities, and there are two other groups for the traditionally black groups and the others with a specific purpose. These groups organize Rush, control the membership numbers, etc.</p>
<p>It was a knee jerk reaction by an administration that doesn’t know how to police itself. The university is merely trying to limit its liability and exposing itself to liability in the process. </p>
<p>Rapists are rapists because they are rapists. Fraternities, sororities are not clubs that turn normal, angelic 18-20yo kids into raping, plundering, pillaging barbarians.</p>
<p>But it’s nice for these colleges that promote an anything goes culture to be the biggest hypocrites of all and come down with the most unjust, illiberal, intolerant and insane rules and codes against due process, free speech, innocence until proven guilty, search and seizure, intellectual debate and considering all sides that would make Stalin jealous.</p>
<p>Ridiculous. I don’t care about fraternities but I believe that lies should be rejected wholly and not entertained as in any way, shape or form as adding anything of substance to the conversation about sex assaults on college campuses. Only real cases, real facts and real evidence should be introduced into that debate and real action, like a real police investigation and legal prosecution of criminals, should be taken to address these issues.</p>
<p>People who want real justice for sex assault victims should target the universities because they are only acting to protect their own self interests. 1. Reporting sex assaults on campus will hurt recruiting. 2. Sex assaults on campus going unaddressed legally will hurt alumni giving. 3. University handling of sex assault cases could get them sued for liability. So, universities rely on their own keystone cops to clean up the mess before real cops can get involved. They have lawyers to help them stonewall real investigations and they claim to protect the victims by stupid actions like blaming Greek organizations to deflect from their own culpability in these matters.</p>
<p>The other thing that bothers me about the national outrage is the liberal use of nebulous labels, like “campus rape.” That term does not seem to have distinct definitional boundaries. For example, if the rape incidentally takes place on a university quad as opposed to a similar green rectangle of grass in the park two blocks away, and neither of the two parties are actually even students of the school, it’s still campus rape. If one of the parties in the rape is a college student, but the act happens miles off campus or even in another state, it’s nonetheless lumped into the entity known as the “campus rape crisis.” For example, in the publicity last year of the alleged rape of a Stanford student by another Stanford student, the incident occurred in ALASKA–not when school was in session and not even in the same state as the school much less on campus property. Yet, that alleged crime was used to stir the outrage over what was termed “campus rape culture,” and Stanford was called upon to punish and even expel the accused based on the likelihood of his guilt of a crime committed in Juneau. </p>
<p>I am wholly deficient in understanding of legal matters, but shouldn’t rape be punished quite far beyond even expelling? (years in prison, sex offender record, stuff like that). I’m still confused about the whole matter.</p>
<p>@PlzRito Good question. That’s because those penalties are reserved for those convicted of rape in the criminal courts, after due process, not those “convicted” of a redefined form of rape (if she was drinking she can’t consent, even if we have texts clearly showing that she consented and participated vigorously: see Occidental) by a kangaroo court with no due process. </p>
<p>I’m becoming increasingly jaded on this whole thing.</p>
<p>Occidental had rules. We may disagree with the rules-- and indeed I do disagree-- but they were there in black and white. The Occidental guy violated the rules. What is wrong with throwing a guy who violates rules out of your college?</p>
<p>I concur that the Occidental rules are bad and should be changed. But there is no doubt that the Occidental guy did what the college said he did: he had sex with a woman who didn’t “consent”, according to their (stupid) definition of consent.</p>