Fraternities: A Pox on Campus Life

Parents Forum
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<p>The problem is HOW did the college draw conclusions about what did or did not happen? In a court of law the evidence is examined, the witnesses are questioned, and so on according to fair, established procedures. Then, if the jury decides he raped her, he should receive the appropriate punishment from the legal system and the college is free to impose their own consequences. However, a colleges is an educational institution, not a court, jury, or judge. Their honor code committees are amateurish and flawed, as many can attest and cannot be permitted to decide matters of this degree of importance. A college has no access to police records, and it doesn’t own crime labs or employ forensic experts. Therefore, a college should have no say over alleged criminal matters that did not occur on campus or when school was in session. </p>

<p>Suppose over winter break a college student returns to her job as a retail clerk. She believes she witnesses another college student shoplift something from her store. She tells her manager, who reports to the police. In January, she sees this alleged thief, and is concerned because he lives in her dorm. She is worried he will rob her or other residents, or perhaps retaliate against her. So she goes to the campus authorities, requesting he be removed from the dorm. They do it, but then she asks for him to be expelled too because she feels uncomfortable and anxious. Would you agree with her and jump on that bandwagon too? That in essence is what happened at Stanford.</p>

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<p>Criminal courts operate under a “beyond a shadow of a doubt” standard. (Most) civil courts and (most) colleges operate under a “preponderance of the evidence” standard. So yes, the standards are different, but either way it’s not a kangaroo court sort of thing.</p>

123

<p>Well, my son would disagree with that, having served on the honor code committee at his college. He was very disturbed at how capriciously the committee operated, and felt they decided matters less on facts and more on how they FELT about the case and the individual involved. Look, we all despise rape but facts and proof must prevail, not our feelings. </p>

124

<p>All I can say is that colleges are required to follow their own procedures, and to provide avenues of appeal and such—and if a college doesn’t follow its own procedures, well, that’s part of why we have a judicial system.</p>

125

<p>Too many colleges’ procedures, and their supposed avenues of appeal, are just a joke. The standards, to the extent they exist, are fluid and the process offered to the accused does not meet minimal standards of fairness. You give more fairness and due process to your 12-year-old who’s just knocked a baseball through the neighbor’s window.</p>

<p>More to the point, rape is a crime. A heinous crime. To treat it as a matter for administrative hearing in a college process, before some diversity officer or some random panel of deans, bureaucrats, and professors, puts it on the same level as plagiarism, keeping a pet in the dorm, or walking on the grass. That’s wrong. It’s simply incomprehensible why anyone who cares about justice would want to treat it that way. </p>

126

<p>In the Occidental case, the guy admitted to having sex with the drunk woman. The findings of fact were not at issue there. He had sex with a drunk woman, having sex with people who don’t consent is rape, by the Occidental definition of “consent” no one who is drunk can consent. They didn’t need any more findings of fact; those facts are not in dispute.</p>

127

<p>IMHO, Cardinal Fang, that is like saying it is acceptable to punish someone for miscegenation because it’s on the books. I know you agree that the rule is wrong. I would think that it would not be difficult for that student to sue them on the grounds of Title IX discrimination, actually. The rule is clearly discriminatory.</p>

128

<p>My point is, people were complaining about due process, but that is the wrong complaint. He got due process. It wasn’t the process; it was the rule. And if I understand it correctly, this was a new rule, interpreted the way it was intended to be interpreted. It’s not like someone dredged up some old college rule that nobody had ever heard of.</p>

129

<p>@Requin‌ wrote: “More to the point, rape is a crime. A heinous crime. To treat it as a matter for administrative hearing in a college process, before some diversity officer or some random panel of deans, bureaucrats, and professors, puts it on the same level as plagiarism, keeping a pet in the dorm, or walking on the grass. That’s wrong. It’s simply incomprehensible why anyone who cares about justice would want to treat it that way.”</p>

<p>Actually, you might want to talk to a Dean of Students or three about the process before making this sort of claim about it. Once you learn about some of what goes into it, you might well change your tune.</p>

130

<p>I really do think that the cons of Greek like far outweigh the pros. It’s just not worth the negative things that come out of it. With this is mind, even though a lot of people feel the same way about it I don’t think it will ever be eradicated anytime soon.</p>

131

<p>Cardinal Fang says drunk sex is rape. Now sex requires a breathalyzer.</p>

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<p>I never said any such thing. I’m furious that you would assert that I said the opposite of what I actually believe. You need to retract that and apologize right now.</p>

133

<p>From Fang #125: * He had sex with a drunk woman, having sex with people who don’t consent is rape, by the Occidental definition of “consent” no one who is drunk can consent.*</p>

<p>I think you need to own this one, Your Eminence.</p>

134

<p>Cardinal Fang was describing Occidental’s definition of “consent”, which s/he does not necessarily agree with. Describing a particular definition, premise, or belief and its logical conclusion does not necessarily mean that one agrees with it.</p>

135

<p>Thanks, ucbalumnus. </p>

<p>As it happens, I think the Occidental rule is bad and should be changed. But then, other colleges also have rules that I don’t agree with. I think some conservative Christian colleges have rules that sex is prohibited, and someone can be disciplined for violating those rules. I don’t agree with the rules, but colleges are allowed to have rules and enforce them. Even bad rules.</p>

136

<p>In my mind, the American drinking age plays a role-- or at least certainly complicates things. What if the legal drinking age were 19 or even 18? Then college staff could wander in and out of the parties. Instead, they purposely stay away and pray nothing happens. That is sure working well.</p>

137

<p>@CardinalFang might or might not (seems to not) think that “drunk sex is rape” - however in fact, drunk people are <em>not</em> able to give legal consent [among other things, to sex], so the <em>law</em> “thinks that drunk sex is rape”.</p>

<p>If one partner is drunk, it seems that the precedent is getting established that s/he was the victim.</p>

<p>These questionable cases are occurring when both partners are drunk. I’m as opposed to rape as a person could possibly be, and in consequence, I’m really opposed to all this drinking and lack of personal judgment.</p>

<p>There is a tendency in modern times, among some circles, to err on the side of blaming the male partner if both a man and a woman are drunk and have sex. This is based on obvious biology, but it is also a reaction to let’s face it, thousands of years of men being the sexually empowered members of our human society. For most of human history, women have been the victims of many, many cases of sexual assault - that was just how things were, across times and cultures.</p>

<p>There are still surveys that show police and personal attitudes are often Neanderthal toward women reporting rape, so it’s not like we’ve reached the glorious un-sexist future and now we can assume women and men are equally victimized by sex crimes.</p>

<p>Moreover, none of the drinking/uncertainty/etc. is going to explain the actual problems with serial sex offenders who know exactly what they are doing with “rape drugs,” violence, etc. which are getting smoothed over or ignored in some of the “campus rape” discussion.</p>

<p>And fraternity culture seems to attract men who feel entitled and a huge alcohol culture - the worst of all combinations.</p>

<p>To those who think that having co-ed living environments wouldn’t reduce rape, I think you’re partly right. This wouldn’t reduce the “hey we were drunk” business; it might increase that instead. HOWEVER, when women are “equal brothers [sic]” in the living group, the entitled end of things will be reduced. And in the longer term, reducing single-sex environments will make for a more equal way of us viewing one another.</p>

138

<p>“And fraternity culture seems to attract men who feel entitled and a huge alcohol culture - the worst of all combinations.”</p>

<p>What do you think they feel entitled to?</p>

139

<p>@Requin, how do you post this</p>

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<p>and completely ignore the by the Occidental definition part of it, and attribute that sentiment to CF? It’s clear as day CF notes that this is Occidental’s definition.</p>

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<p>IMO, you need to own your own mistake.</p>

140

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<p>What laws are you talking about here? What state are you talking about? In my state of California, being drunk does not mean one cannot consent.</p>