Freshman Schedule Kelley DA???

Colleges and Universities A-Z Indiana University - Bloomington
1

Kelley DA and Hutton DA wondering if this is a good schedule to take. Will have credit for Macro, Micro, German, APUS, English, and Math up through M211. I am planning on being a finance/International Business Major with a minor in sports management and I would also like to learn Spanish. I am a very hard worker and I am wondering how doable this is. I would like to get into Business Honors eventually. Also, do I have to wait till after my icore prereqs to start major classes?

M211
A100
K204
T175
SPH-M211 (Intro to Sports Management)
Hisp 100

C106
A205
x202
Some sort of PE Class
Hutton Honors Class
Hisp 105

2

Could I just take other gen eds sop year? Or should I add some. Sorry I am not good at this stuff

3

Do not take M211. If you have credit for M119, just stop taking calculus, and if not, take M119. M211 is much harder and gives you no benefit over M119.

It would be impossible to double major, minor, take Hutton classes, and Spanish and graduate in 4 years unless you want to take a lot of summer classes. Some major classes can be taken before I-Core, but there is no way you would have room to do that with all of the stuff you have planned. You are only coming in with credit for 3 or 4 classes (M119?) that you actually need, and all of the stuff you want to do is way more than 3 or 4 extra classes.

Regarding your second semester, I wouldn’t recommend taking 4 honors classes all at once. Also, X202 is now K304 (regular version is K303).

If I were you, I would give up on Spanish (you really aren’t going to learn that much if you just take a couple classes - I took 3 years in high school and am not even close to fluent, and you don’t have the schedule room to take a lot) and either take the German class you test into, or take a double-counting WC and A&H class in that slot. You have to make some trade-offs when selecting classes no matter how hard you are willing to work.

Sorry if this came off as harsh but there is no realistic way to fit all of these classes in and graduate on time without taking a ton of summer classes. Let me know if you have any questions and I’d be happy to answer.

4

I agree on not taking M211 unless you’ve had calculus in high school (Calculus Honors or AB is fine)… and, really, you don’t need it (it’ll be full of premed gunners, who needs the grief?) M 119 would be good, too, unless you placed out of it and can take M120 directly. Take Stats 301 (S301, Stats for Business)o S370 (Honors version) either semester. You want that on your transcript + to file under “relevant coursework” on you freshman resume. Ideal sequence would be M120 Fall, Stats 301 Spring, or all of calc waived = take Sats 301/370/370 right away.
So: M119, M120, or Stats 301/370
+
A 100, K204 = ok
+
T175, Intro to Sports Management , OK, but I’d leave it for next semester and I’d take a regular, general education science class with lab
+
Hisp100

Hisp 100-150 is actually a good sequence. It covers roughly 3 years of HS Spanish in just one year (if you were in HS, you’d be able to score 580-720 on the SAT Subject). After that the offerings are really interesting and IU is renowned for its language programs. Honestly it’s another area of excellence for IU (like Kelley) and it’d be remiss not to take advantage of it, especially if you have an interest.
You may also be interested in German 250 or see what you can take in German.

2nd semester looks a bit less well-balanced - you don’t get points for overloading. What matters is choosing well and doing well.
So:
M120 or Stats 301 or 370
C106
Hisp 150
Hutton Arts/Humanities/Social Science class for gen ed
Since you’d have advanced standing, an I-Core/G-core class may be possible, or T175if you took your science gen ed in the Fall.

I wouldn’t take A205 that Spring, I’d leave that to Spring Sophomore year. That’s too much.

Requirements for Hutton really aren’t that onerous - basically, one Honors class per semester. I’d recommend taking one of those in humanities/Social science sections, where discussion is really important and really enrich the class vs. a lecture class.

I think that as you take classes, your objectives will shift - for now, it’s fine to be thinking broadly. You’ll refine the double major + double minor plan as you go. Freshman year is to explore and discover new fields.

5

@MYOS1634 I liked everything right up until you said “Freshman year is to explore and discover new fields”. I’ve found that not to be true. Those days are past.

The OP has lofty goals as majors and will have almost no time for resets. A comprehensive 4 year plan is the only way to go IMHO. Always plan for 15 hours each semester so you can drop the odd mistake class, but I think you really should gave all 8 semesters planned out before orientation.

6

We all know that 80% freshmen change their minds. This student will take sports management and discover it’s not the field he thought it was, and will drop that. Or will take statistics and discover its potential for business. A 4-year plan is an essential guide, but students who don’t show enough self awareness to see the plan needs to change are among the most common casualties (along with those who think that just because they take a class in something they should major in it). The group that graduates most smoothly is the group with a flexible plan, ie., goal + details but willing to switch all details depending on circumstances (not whims! but indicators of apitude+interest.) For instance, a C+ in Calculus1 should be a strong indication a math or engineering is unlikely, and if Calc 2 results in a D, the student needs a quick Plan B regardless of 4-year plans and majors chosen in High School. Those situations are unfortunately too common.)
I’d say it’s impossible for a freshman to have a 4-year plan BEFORE orientation. Typically they work on it in their Freshman Seminar (T175) and need a month to six weeks to have something even remotely doable and rational. And even then, basically none of these plans will actually be followed as opportunities arise, new subjects are discovered, others are found to be lacking what appeal they had in their freshman fantasy, etc. However they’ll still be immensely useful in helping them map out a path over 4 years and distinguishing between what they can choose to do, and what they can’t avoid.

7

Whoa! Struck a nerve I guess. Lol.

It’s not impossible to have a 4 year plan. Many b-schools insist on it. At Kelley it is essential. I’ve known from the beginning where my open slots would be and what options I would gave to change or add majors. BTW, don’t count on Kelley advisord to do this for you.

That BS about 80% of freshmen changing there minds is an outdated urban myth. At 40k+ per year for an OOS student like me, you can be very very sure I did not waste time finding myself freshman year. Change your mind in any big way? Good luck graduating in 4 years and forget about getting into anything more than Kelley.

Everything important at Kelley beyond simply graduating like Business Honors, Workshops, internships, etc DEPEND on you having your stuff together Freshman year. There are no second chances as the application dates are all based on a solid plan starting Freshman year. Even then it’s competitive.

Sorry, but the good old days of exploring your options in college are over unless someone can pay for the 5 or 6 year plan.

@MYOS1634 While I could be wrong you sound like a parent, not a Kelley student.

8

I agree with @IUBOOS here; we’re facing a related situation (some variety of biology or another / premed / supposedly more flexible) but you basically have 3 years worth of premed requirements that are more or less cast in limestone, then senior year fall is where you send med school apps, and senior year spring to sit and wait. So all of a sudden this super-flexible major is no more, and you have to have a solid plan from day 1 to make it work. Study abroad? more likely dinner at Olive Garden if you need some major or concentration course offered once a year the time when you’re jet-setting across to the Galapagos. (we’re doing this planning as we speak…)

Having said this, I spent 14 years in college, earning two undergraduate and two graduate degrees, all in engineering. I’ve armchair-advised DD1 thru undergrad and grad architecture with no problems, yet trying to armchair-advise DD2 thru IU seems to be remarkably more complicated due to the vast number of courses and options available. So, let the pros do their work, talk to the advisor(s) early and often and stick to the plan.

9

MYOS1634 doesn’t really know what they are talking about

  1. MATH-M 118 (Finite) is a prereq for STAT-S 301, so you can't take stats right away
  2. There is absolutely no point of taking M120 (Calc 2) - you don't need it
  3. A205 is only offered in the fall, so you can't take that in the spring. I forgot to mention that in my first post.
  4. You don't need to take a gen-ed science class with a lab. You just need a 3 credit natural science class at some point before you graduate.
10

^OP has indicated he’s had credit for all math through 211 so OP either has had calculus ab or bc. In any case he’s got 118 covered and can start with stats freshman year.
Math 120 may be useful depending on what OP plans on doing and Whether he sticks by his major - for finance, the more math the better. (which may be why OP is thinking of taking 211).
You’re right that A205is only offered in Fall (my bad/typo) but my larger point stands: it shouldn’t be taken freshman year.
OP WILL need to take general eds in the subjects he didn’t get AP credit for, better do that freshman year.

11

@IUBOOS: I thik we’re saying the same thing with different words. Having a plan for the sequential courses but being flexible for the courses that aren’t.
Kelley, like engineering, is very sequential: you have to take class X before class Z, etc. There’s more flexibility for students who come in with AP’s, especially those with English, Math, and Econ covered - and the best use of that flexibility is by 1° figuring out what classes they like and which ones they don’t and 2° taking gen eds to balance out their schedule in order to frontload their GPA (as it’s only going to get tougher).
There are as many kids who have zero plan as kids who are slaves to their plan and follow it like a train on tracks, including when the plan no longer reflects their current interests (kids change a LOT between the beginning of freshman year and registration during the Spring of freshman year), only to realize junior year they have no clue why they’re in that major or that they hate it or that they’re really no good at X. Better then than later, but it’s still pretty costly to say “I decided that as a HS senior/freshman, I will get through it no matter what” for two years of C’s.
The GCore/ICore system is pretty good in that respect but freshmen need to hold both thoughts in their head at once (:p) : this is a 4-year plan AND this plan can change.
One of the most successful students I know had a perfect 4-year we’re worked on before he even enrolled. He changed it 6 times before sophomore year: invited to a prestigious program… internship… professor he really wanted to take a class with on sabbatical… offered a “TA” position (academic peer coach / UTA opportunity)… discovery of a special class offered just that one semester related to a topic he really wants to study… use of summer classes or not…
One of the beauties of the program is that it has so many choices :slight_smile:

BTW, you’re right, I’m not a college student but it doesn’t mean I don’t know Kelley (and its students) pretty well.

12

@MYOS1634 I don’t want to get into a big argument here but you are incorrect about Kelley in a couple big ways.

  1. More math for Finance better? Not true. Calc is as far as you'll ever need to go unless you want to be a quant, and then you're already a math major. M211 is a GPA killer.
  2. OP doesn't have Finite covered... should take outside IU... another GPA killer.
  3. Kelley is not all that sequential. Once you've taken 2 levels of prereqs for I-Core your majors let you bounce around their required courses a lot Junior and Senior years.
  4. If Kelley is sequential, then you'd better get it planned out up front right? You can't have it both ways.

Sure plans change, but how can you change a plan that you haven’t made? I too know Kelley kids with no plan… they’re at the bottom of the class partying mid-week. Good luck to them.

All I’m saying is be prepared and then choices can be made based on a thorough understanding of possible outcomes. I guess I don’t like surprises when my future’s at stake.

13

Not trying to be argumentative here and I think we’re in agreement on key elements.
Perhaps this will clear things up:

  1. I am not advocating OP take 211 - read back upthread, I said the same thing you did about 211 and recommended 120 instead (if OP’s ready for 211, 120 should be ok). For someone in finance, more math is always better than less math. Not for Kelley requirements - for real life/jobs. There’s a difference between majoring in math and having solid math for finance. Having (minimally) calc on your transcript will be important later on.
  2. OP needs to be clear if 118 isn’t covered, but by “credit for math up to 211” (OP) I assume s/he means 118 is covered. If not, obviously I’d change my recommendations. And I agree, if Op’s wrong in math credit estimation, s/he should take an 118 equivalent somewhere else.
  3. Sequential means you need to take class X before class Z and/or have completed a set core of classes before you can move to the next group of core classes.

    Kelley is the very definition of sequential. (It is DESIGNED to be so - a lot of work by a lot of people was put into that curriculum design.)
    You can’t take ICore before you have ICore pre-reqs and Gcore. You can’t go abroad until Icore has been completed. Within each core, there are sequences too: for instance, you need to have A100 before A205.
    Contrast with, say, history, where you can take any number of courses in any order provided they can be grouped in historical areas (this is changing for the Fall, but still the same idea - for the whole major only three courses are in sequence, nothing else is.)
  4. I guess I wasn’t clear so I’ll try to reword: not making a plan when you’re in Kelley is indeed a recipe for disaster. (Also, whatever happened in T175?) Yes, you need to plan ahead carefully because Kelley is sequential, but you need to remain flexible for the rest - ie., Op’s choice of Intro to sports management Fall semester freshman year could be taken at another point if another opportunity presents itself. If you can’t take C106 one semester due to fewer sections, you have to decide whether you’ll take it another semester and then what to replace it with, or whether you’ll take 104. If you planned on taking Russian due to connections at St Barth’s, but realize you’d be better off with Portuguese because you got an amazing opportunity in Brazil, and the level of Portuguese you need is only offered in the Fall, you have to switch something out and it better be something non-sequential.) So, you need both: the plan and the flexibility, thinking ahead and being able to adapt.
    Your wording of “how can you change a plan you haven’t made” is awesome and captures exactly what I’m trying to say, with “plan + flexibility”.
14

@MYOS1634 Now you’re just being pedantic by defining sequential. Gee thanks. Lol

If OP wants to take a Calc class that nobody requires or cares about, be my guest. The people I know in the finance world never use calculus. They hire PhD math and CS majors to write the pricing models. Those in the general business, VC and PE finance worlds value the Excel skills taught in K201 far more than any math course.

Let us know how your schedule works out OP.

15

All in all I think we agree.
Wrt sequential - it’s understandable /normal not to know what that means in terms of curriculum design and it seemed you were unclear about it, insisting Kelley isn’t sequential when the curriculum design has been explicitly (and with maaaaannnyyy leeeeeegthy discussions) decided to be so. There’s no indication whether you’re a student, faculty/administrator, parent, or Kelley graduate. Didn’t mean to offend but assumed you were part of the 98% who don’t know because they don’t have to !

Calculus isn’t for use (as you said, they have quants for that). It’s a signifier for certain firms and certain types of jobs.

16

Math trains your mind to think logically. In my personal option is that you should take all the math you can regardless of your major. I also think that you should also take the most challenging courses you can. You (or your parents) are paying a lot of money for college. Get the most out of it.

I did not see if you were directly admitted to the business school. If you were not and have the grades to be directly admitted before August, get that fixed now. Contact the direct admission POC at the following bschool@indiana.edu. See link here requirements http://kelley.iu.edu/Ugrad/Admissions/Future/page39066.html

If not directly admitted realize that you need to complete the required b-school freshman year course load with a good gpa. See http://kelley.iu.edu/Ugrad/Admissions/CurrentIU/page39067.html
Do not overextend yourself and have to withdraw from courses or do badly in something. This will negatively effect regular application to B school at end of freshman year. You need to balance this goal with taking the most challenging course load comment made above.

Realize that most employers ofb school students are primarily interested in GPA. Don’t party or over extend yourself and get a poor GPA. You should shoot for 3.8 if possible. This will allow you to get a job you want or leave the option open for grad school in business or any other field of interest. Key is you always want to leave your options open. Having a solid GPA allows you to keep your options open.

Always have a plan A and a plan B. There is nothing wrong with changing your plan, you just need to have a plan to give you some direction. It helps having some short term and long term milestones to reach for. Is important to get some sort of sense of accomplishment when you accomplish each milestone in turn.

Sounds like business honors is applied for at end of freshman year. http://kelley.iu.edu/Ugrad/Academics/Honors/page39063.html
They require that you maintain a 3.7 GPA once accepted so I assume they only accept freshman that have at least a 3.7 to begin with. Another reason to shoot for at least 3.8 GPA.

I know you can not take finance major courses until ICORE completed. Likely the same for international business (exception maybe some sort of required overseas experience for credit). You need to read the document at the following link. It explicitly spells out requirements/courses for different business concentrations and what prerequisite there are for each course. http://bulletins.iu.edu/iub/kelley-ugrad/2014-2015/kelley-ugrad-pdf.pdf

You should also read about general education requirements and what courses you will place out of based on AP credit and SAT/ACT scores in document at this link. http://bulletins.iu.edu/iub/general-education/2015-2016/gened-pdf.pdf

The goals you mentioned above sound very doable for any determined freshman. If you are interested in international business and/or Spanish then just jump right in. Target an area of the world (set a goal. Remember goal can change. just set a goal). If the region of the world you are interested in speaks Spanish than do whatever it takes to become truly fluent in the language. Only way to do that is through immersion in the country that speaks the language. Set goal of at least 1 semester, preferably a year or multiple summers, in the country to get immersion experience. Dual degree or minors are not important. The fluency and the experiences are what is important.

Widen your experiences. Definitely take a range of courses to sample different things depending how much space you have in schedule. Join a club. Take a painting course. Try out for a play. Take a psychology course. Volunteer to bring meals to shut-ins. Invite an international student on your dorm floor that doesn’t have many friends to go to the football game with you and your friends.

Finally when you get to IU try to avoid the partiers and hang with more serious students with similar interests. I am not saying study all the time. Just avoid the booze and the drugs (not saying the are drugs at IU) and make the best use of your time there.

Example of a goal. My son is a Kelley direct admit this year. Target concentration is finance. Already has a high level of German fluency in part from prior immersion experience plus extra study. Will be trying to take advanced German course every semester. Will pick up Business German certificate along the way. http://germanic.indiana.edu/undergraduates/certificate.shtml Will try to do two summer internships in Germany. (one before senior year, one after)

He will also be doing Chinese language flagship. http://www.indiana.edu/~flagship/index.php/chinese-flagship-program/curriculum19-v-1-1.html

When not in Germany for the summer, he will be in China doing immersion study. Fifth year will be in China for capstone year. This is a very demanding schedule. The disadvantage is that he has zero flexibility in schedule to try other things. His schedule already requires taking 17-18 credits of required courses each semester for 8 semesters plus 6-8 credits each summer for each of the Chinese language immersion courses. Will have close to 150 credits at end of capstone year but only needs 120 to graduate from Kelley. This is an extreme example of setting a goal (in this case multiple goals) but he knows what he wants to get out of school. He will likely achieve it and I wish him luck.

Same goes to you. Set a goal just beyond what you think you can do. Push yourself and reach the goal. Once that goal is accomplished you will find that you have grown. Then set another goal just beyond what you think you can do and grow some more. I wish you luck.

17

@MYOS1634 and all thank you very much. Sorry to clarify I have had Calc but not AP I currently am doing very well in the class. Sorry I have no experience with this so I made a lotta mistakes. I am wondering about 211 cause that is what my ALEKS score put me at. I am not sure if that means if I have credit for finite but am open to whatever comments you guys may have

18

You do not have any math credit if you haven’t taken AP calc, so you will still have to take Finite M118 and Calc M119. I would recommend M119 even if you test into M211 because it is much easier.

19

Was your Aleks score above 81?
Can you take the calculator about exam in May? It’d save you from a nightmarish class :stuck_out_tongue:

20

@MYOS1634 it was 85. What class would that save me from? I’m trying now to take maybe a math class or two at ivy tech over the summer to knock out a requirement or two