<p>I glanced through most of these but has the OP given any thought to the possibility of the "friend" just protecting himself? I know I am the type who is afraid to "wish for the stars" it's easier for me to aim low and not be disappointed. My children and husband are the opposite, they always aim high and though perhaps don't land where they originally wanted it's probably much higher than I would have ever dreamed of aiming. Sometimes, sensitive people who are easily "wounded" or doubt themselves- are just plain afraid to dream big. I'm glad my kids aren't like me- they have accomplished so much more than I ever would have dreamed for them, had I been in charge of the dreaming. Maybe the "friend" is a bit more like me- and his parents a bit more like the "guys" in my house.</p>
<p>oops cross posted with blossom- and I totally agree!!</p>
<p>There's also a chance that the parents' pride will be satisfied if the kid will be accepted to an Ivy (and actual attending will not be necessary). I'm thinking of the "asian parents syndrome" (the parents actually being asian is no necessary neither sufficient requirement)...</p>
<p>But than again, there's nothing inherently bad in the Ivies. :) My own kid (going around the Princeton campus barefoot, ignoring the existence of eating clubs and generally enjoying his life in a fine company of like-minded people whose parents' income he knows nothing of) is a living proof that practically anybody could fit in and find his or her niche there. So, maybe the kid (if accepted by some of them) will look at these particular Ivies more closely and find out that he actually wants to go there... </p>
<p>Well, I think the proposed idea of applying to both Ivies and non-Ivies is a perfect solution... and it's quite possible that everybody will be satisfied in the end. And if he's afraid that the parents will be disappointed if he fails... I'd say they will be even more disappointed if he does not apply at all.</p>
<p>Is it just me who thinks that the national universities USNews ranks about 19-38 seem a lot more interesting than the ones ranked 1-17? Maybe because the former group would seem to have people there who actually want to be there, and the latter group has a lot of people there who are there because they are prestige mongers or because their parents can't wait to drop the college's name at the country club.</p>
<p>OP, try reading an old thread called Andison's Story or something like that (anyone have the link? I'm lazy and tired tonight...)</p>
<p>It shows how someone with great stats can still miss getting accepted at Ivies.
I think it's a terrible strategy to only have Ivies as a "list" no matter where a student ultimately attends.</p>
<p>This student should visit (online and perhaps in person) a top LAC such as Williams, Amherst, Wesleyan, Vassar, Smith.. Then looik at LAC's with high rates of gaining admission into top grad schools, yet are not so competitive in the verbal culture among undergrads: Oberlin, Carleton, Grinnell, Reed all come to mind.</p>
<p>The first list I just rattled off are very selective. It could be that they'd turn him off for the same competitive atmosphere as the Ivies, but the education there is top shelf. The second list included schools where students don't discuss grades interminably, acc to my own kids' experiences but more importantly lots of feedback along those lines here at CC. That's just a starter list (both of them) but you get the idea.</p>
<p>The parents sound like prestige hounds, so find the stats about how the graduates from these places gain entry into grad schools, but that he's younger and wants some time to grow socially and emotionally as well as intellectually. Maybe the thought that he'd get to HYP etc as a grad student will mollify them.</p>
<p>If the parents haven't "heard" of these other schools, the response is that among the academic leadership of this country, an LAC education at a place like Wms. or Amherst is praised highly for preparation in the grad schools of HYP.</p>
<p>I'm not saying ANYTHING against HYP here at all. It just isn't the right place for every single undergraduate who is smart. The Ivy experience can wait for grad school.</p>
<p>Yeah, I drop the names at my country club all the time ... oh wait, I've never been in a country club. Nor would I want to be. (Nor could I afford to, if I wanted to be.)</p>
<p>I'm not reading that the OP's friend is a legacy, a URM, or a recruited athlete, so chances are rather than facing a one in ten chance of needing to turn down HYP, the chance is more like one in twenty.
I agree with marmat that one can find one's place at HYP easily. My daughter at Princeton hangs at the "sketchy, artsy" eating club, where the best Indie bands tend to be found. She plans to spend Saturday with two Korean-American friends who will journey to Manhattan for some tattoos.<br>
Conservative Ivy? The Princetonians I know of on presidential tickets since Wilson are Norman Thomas, Adlai Stevenson, and Ralph Nader.
My point is not to dismiss any school out-of-hand. One can find one's place at many, many schools. If the pressure on the OP's friend is to not fail, then that is an entirely different and serious matter.</p>
<p>As recently as one year ago I was one of those prestige-driven parents who felt that an ivy was the only way to go. Luckily, my wife and D were not. They made me read the excellent Time Magazine article Who</a> Needs Harvard?, I discovered CC, and I slowly became enlightened as to the true value of matching the student to the school.</p>
<p>The ivys are still the best school for many people, but not for all. If the OP's friend is interested in elite schools without the snobbery, have him check out some top LACs. Pomona, for instance, has little street cred with the average suburban parent (trust me, I know), but offers crazy academics with laid-back students. It's a self-selecting process - there will always be students who choose HYP so they can sniff "Hey, look at me, I'm at HYP", whereas none of those students would choose a lesser known, albeit equally rigorous, school like a top LAC. That means students at the lesser-known schools are more likely to be there because they <em>want</em> to be there. Not because their parents want them there, not so they can brag that they are there. I think that's why schools like Pomona have such happy, modest, down-to-earth kids, with very few pretentious/arrogant kids.</p>
<p>This might also explain why I'm now such a supporter of top LACs, as evidenced by my frequent posts - I've been enlightened, and I'm trying, in a small way, to bring some enlightenment to the less-informed parents (like my former self) out there.</p>
<p>"whereas none of those students would choose a lesser known, albeit equally rigorous, school like a top LAC"</p>
<p>Sure they do, if it's the most prestigious school they got into.</p>
<p>There are plenty of people choosing EVERY famous school -- including Pomona, Wesleyan, etc. -- in part because it is the most selective or widely respected school they got into. Let's not pretend that the prestige gulf between Amherst and Hendrix is lost on these kids (or their parents). What exactly is the philosophical difference between choosing Yale over Georgetown and choosing Wellesley over Sweet Briar? It's the same tune played on a different set of instruments.</p>
<p>SarahsDad,
My H was in that "unenlightened" camp some years back, wondering why our S had no interest in applying to HYP. He sat down with the director of College Counseling at the high school (ultra-competitive NYC school) who told him that S would not get a finer undergrad education anywhere else in the country than he would at Swarthmore and Amherst. H calmed down and S went to Swarthmore. It was absolutely the right fit for him.</p>
<p>Everybody does not choose the most prestigious or selective school he/she gets into. Sounds like that's the way you think--that's fine--but it's not how everyone thinks or acts.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Everybody does not choose the most prestigious or selective school he/she gets into. Sounds like that's the way you think--that's fine--but it's not how everyone thinks or acts.
[/quote]
I do not believe that is what Hanna meant to say ... when I read her comment I read ... "some" people who choose top LACs such as Swarthmore or Williams do so because it is the most prestigious to which they were accpeted similar to "some" of the students who attend IVYies. In both cases not all but some kids choose driven by prestige. YMMV</p>
<p>Oh, sorry--maybe I misinterpreted what Hanna was saying. Now that I re-read my post, it sounds harsh, so I apologize. The prestige issue really makes me irritable. I should just try to ignore it and not get into these discussions. There's nothing <em>wrong</em> with making a decision based on prestige. I just don't like to see people pushing that pov on others or assuming anyone who acts differently is only saying the grapes are sour anyway because they couldn't get into a more selective place.</p>
<p>Right -- I was contradicting another poster's blanket statement that "none" of the prestige snobs would choose a rigorous but lesser-known school. That's not true. Plenty of them would, and do.</p>
<p>Some kids prefer big schools, others prefer small. But the fact is, most of the kids in both groups strongly prefer schools that are perceived as "better" within their favored category. Do they do that because they want prestige for its own sake or because prestige correlates with desirable qualities the students are looking for? That's impossible to untangle. But if you're choosing Williams over Hamilton, you are doing the exact same thing as the kid choosing Yale over Georgetown. It's a mistake (and an insult) to declare that the first kid makes his decision based purely on "fit" and the second kid makes an "unenlightened" decision colored by prestige. We're all living in the same world.</p>
<p>Just my unenlightened -- albeit LAC-educated -- observation.</p>
<p>Sorry for my unclear post above - I meant prestige snobs will not choose a lesser known school over HYP if given the choice, ie if they were accepted at an HYP and also to lesser known schools. I was sort of taking the assumption of the OP that his friend would likely be accepted to an HYP (perhaps a big assumption) and other schools too.</p>
<p>I actually don't think there's a difference in prestige between Yale and Georgetown or between Hamilton and Williams. Are we talking name recogntion? Position on the USN list? With schools that equivalent, I wouldn't think the prestige factor was coloring the decision in either case.</p>
<p>"I meant prestige snobs will not choose a lesser known school over HYP if given the choice, ie if they were accepted at an HYP and also to lesser known schools."</p>
<p>But what's the difference between those prestige snobs and the LAC prestige snobs who won't choose a lesser known school over Amherst/Williams/Swarthmore? Prestige snobs can be found throughout the universe of selective colleges.</p>
<p>"Are we talking name recogntion? Position on the USN list?"</p>
<p>Or peer assessment on the USN list, or selectivity rankings, or pretty much any other way that people try to measure prestige.</p>
<p>"don't think there's a difference in prestige between Yale and Georgetown or between Hamilton and Williams"</p>
<p>Fair enough, but I believe you're in the minority. For better or for worse, I think most applicants and their families perceive prestige differences there.</p>
<p>In the real world, kids regularly turn down Bard or Bowdoin or Hamilton or Williams to attend Queens college-- maybe more or less prestigious, I don't know or care-- because the non-custodial parent refuses to release financial information, or decides to challenge the divorce decree that would have funded college. Or a kid who is hankering for a small LAC (prestigious or not) in a rural "college town" atmosphere ends up at Baruch because Mom is undergoing chemo and it would be too hard on the younger sibs to have the college kid far away.</p>
<p>This debate is laughable. Kids often end up at not just a sub-optimal choice but one that is made for them by circumstance regardless of the prestige factor. I still think the OP's friends parents might, just might, have noble intentions in encouraging their kid to aim high, and to assume that therefore they're prestige hounds who want to brag about Princeton but not Grinnel or Amherst at the country club is quite unfair based on the facts in evidence.</p>
<p>HYP are wonderful universities and many students' top choices for good reason. However, it is absurd to think that any place could be everyone's top choice. If your friend has given these colleges a fair chance- read about the objectively and ignored stereotypes about rich snobs- and they are not for him, then he should not go. If he really cannot get his parents to agree to any place else as a top choice, he still needs to apply to many other colleges. As was suggested earlier, have them read the story of andison to understand why.</p>
<p>It is trivial to avoid being admitted to HYP. As an alumni intervier, I have had the occasional student who was quite up front in saying "No offense, but I don't want to your college. I am applying because my parents are making me." I dutifully report this to the admissions office. These students have not been admitted. Now odds are against anyone applying to these places anyway, and maybe the message did not get through. If he wants to play it even safer, write the college a letter telling the admissions officer that he does not want to go there. If applying online it could be tough to include this with the application, these sound like the kind of parents who would watch every word. However he could send a letter separately perhaps with contact info so they could get back to him to make sure he means it. Of course, he has to be careful not to tell his parents about this maneuver.</p>