Girls at KP

Colleges and Universities A-Z Merchant Marine Academy - Kings Point
1

<p>Hi! As the message thread indicates, I am a girl interested in attending KP. I was wondering a few things:</p>

<li><p>I have seen the CFA results for a lot of boys, but I really don’t know what competitive results for girls would be like. Does anyone know?</p></li>
<li><p>Also, I don’t think being female at KP is really that big of a deal; is that true?</p></li>
<li><p>And third, which actually has nothing to do with gender, but I don’t want to clutter the board with too many threads. I’ve never done organized sports in high school, does that greatly harm my chances? (I am in pretty good shape, though, and I was on several successful academic teams, so I know how to be part of a team.)</p></li>
</ol>

<p>Thank you!</p>

2

<p>I hate to be cynical about something like this, but if you can pass the minimum requirements to get in (1050 SATs etc...) and you are female, you will get in.</p>

3

<p>As a woman who attended KP in the early 90s for a year and a half before resigning, I BEG you to PLEASE think about this carefully, speak to women who attend now AS WELL AS women who graduated, but ESPECIALLY women who quit or were separated from the Academy. Especially if you are not very athletic and not into sports. THINK THINK THINK, ASK ASK ASK, VISIT THE ACADEMY FIRST.</p>

4

<p>i would agree with everything EXCEPT the emphasis on talking to girls that quit.
they didn't finish the course. unless your desire is to be someone that quits, why take advice about how to approach this place from someone who couldn't take it? seems rather silly to me.
that's like asking someone who has only ever run a 5K and no further how you prepare for a marathon. it doesn't make sense.
granted i am not a female, but i do know many that are at the school that hold their own, are respected as such and are not big into sports. stay in shape in one way or another, do your work, don't be "that girl" and you know what i'm talking about, and you'll do fine.
don't play the female card, it'll only get you in trouble. take your lumps with your classmates and they'll respect you for it.
bottom line is be careful who you listen to.
as i've said before: live the motto
acta non verba: deeds not words
give it what you've got and you'll do just fine.</p>

5

<p>As you pointed out, is2day, you're NOT female. Get female perspectives. And ask for the percentage of females who enter and those who graduate with their class. As a non-female, is2say, there are other reasons besides not being able to "stay the course" such as assualt that may just cause a female to leave. Think about it. Also, an excellent resource for all females interested in the Academy is Professor Jane Brickman. E-mail or phone her and I'm sure she'll be helpful.</p>

6

<p>I'm not a female, i'll say that right off the bat and i can in no way try to tell you what they go through but my opinion is as long as you stay strong and your a morally strong person you'll do fine here. You will probably have to give up part of yourself and become "one of the guys" if thats possible but hey thats the name of the game. I don't have a problem with any of the girls here. As for assault...well i haven't heard of any cases of assault while i've been here. There have however been sketchy incidents involving impropper relationships. Bottom line, if you wish to pursue a career in the maritime industry (which will be a challenge for you females) or the military then do your research and if you think you can hack KP then apply and come. Hope that presents an unbiased opinion.</p>

7

<p>My daughter is currently a plebe at KP. While she has only been through 1 trimester, she really likes it there and is determined to stay the course. She works hard to earn respect and do her best. </p>

<p>Her CFA scores were:
BB throw - 30 feet
Pull-ups - she did a 32 second flexed arm hang
shuttle run - 10.3
Sit-ups - 69
Push-ups 27
Mile - 8:06</p>

<p>She wasn't happy with those results because she was sick when she took it. But Admissions seemed delighted.</p>

<p>I can't address your question about lack of sports because our D had lettered in both track and cross country and had been team captain for both as well. For her, having been active in sports made it much easier to be physically fit for Indoc. She is currently running for KP and that has made a huge difference in her experience so far. She is part of a small, tight-knit group, has friends across different classes and companies. She was able to get off campus for meets when other plebes could not. For those not on sports teams, clubs and the chapel groups provide similar opportunities. Take advantage of them!</p>

<p>As others have said, do your research to be sure KP is what you want. It is HARD! But it is doable, even if you haven't been active in sports. Just be sure that you do follow a plan to prepare yourself physically. </p>

<p>Be sure to visit! And don't be afraid to ask questions via email from mids you meet. They love to complain, but if you ask them why they stay, most will say that they do like it there. </p>

<p>Good luck!</p>

8

<p>Last year, Band of Sisters was started for the girls to get to know each other, develop friendships, and be there for each other. In this group are athletes, nonathletes, all classes, and basically a well rounded group. Actually, a number of the top girls at the school are regular attenders. We meet on Thursdays for lunch and spend time talking about topics of concern or interest for the midshipmen. We cover going to sea as a female, male/female relationships on campus, etc. Close to half of all the girls on campus attend. It is very popular and a great success.</p>

<p>We are also there to support each other with problems, such as the midshipman who lost both her Mom and her Dad in one year. We encourage each other, guide, counsel, and clue each other in when there is a problem. They help each other in tutoring also. Many friendships are built. This is part of the chapel program at Kings Point for all faiths.</p>

<p>I would suggest for females, that they join this supporting group at KP, as they are the minority, and they need to stick together. The girls in the group, appear to all love being midshipman at KP.</p>

9

<p>Thank you everyone! You have all been very helpful. I am glad to hear from most of you that it is certainly doable to be a girl at KP. I also like hearing those CFA results, because those are doable for me, and I was really psyching myself out.
kpnotforme, it seems like you have a very different perspective. would you mind telling me a bit more?</p>

10

<p>It is certainly not my intention to interfere with your goals. I had those same goals at one time in my life. My goal was directly related to my ambition to have a martime career; perhaps yours is as well. If so, by all means, pursue an appointment to the USMMA. I just ask that before you do so you do extensive research. Google "sexual assault" + "service academies". Read the Office of the Inspector General of the Department of Defense Report on the Service Academy Sexual Assault in Leadership Survey. REMEMBER the DOD only conducted this investigation into what they call the "three service academies" USNA, USMA and USAFA. Don't ask me why USMMA and USCGA were not included (again) in this study. As of today I don't know of any REPORTED sexual assaults at the USMMA, though there were several alleged sexual assaults by one M/N at the USCGA around 2006. You can read about that as well. </p>

<p>This would be important research for you to do for ANY college or university you were considering. In my opinion, it is of the UTMOST importance should you be seriously considering the USMMA. Again, only my opinion, but you did ask for more information based on my experience there.</p>

<p>I found most frightening the numbers released in this DOD report dated 4 March 2005 that of the "302 sexual assault incidents indicated by respondents 67.1% were not reported". 67% NOT REPORTED TO AUTHORITIES. That is a staggering number. And note that 96% of females at these 3 academies were surveyed.</p>

<p>One thing to know about the Academy from a former female M/N's perspective: as mentioned constantly throughout these threads you will be doing 4 years of academics in 3 years due to the sea year. This puts tremendous pressure on EVERYONE. I found it to be my experience that many males turned this pressure into aggression and harassment of a sexual nature. Not all males, however. In fact, I still have several good male friends from my Academy days. But in general, and I can be way more specific about this, the pressure is taken out on the women. Again, my opinion. And maybe not so hard to believe based on the male to female ratio.</p>

<p>Lastly, I hope that the almost 20 years since I was a M/N have given way to a new generation of more caring and compassionate men. I think this is probably the case, but I still hear in the back of my mind what I was told over and over again at the USMMA "boys will be boys". I hope this helps you in some way.</p>

11

<p>My daughter just started Officers Candidate School for the Marine Corps and I had read the same reports plus the updated ones that you refer to. I too was upset and apprehensive about her entering that atmosphere. Even her recruiter wasn't aware of the statistics and told me he had no explanation and understood why we, her parents would be upset. But things have changed drastically in the last 3 or 4 years in the military according to 2 women officers I recently spoke with. One of the classes our d has had at OCS pulled out those surveys and reports and went over them with all the candidates. While the problem is more pervasive in the enlisted ranks, the officers will be the ones receiving the complaints. But on a positive note, there is much more information and education being disseminated and the military is doing a much better job of educating its officers as to the problem. In addition, things are also improving at the academies, especially after the problem at the USAF about 8 yrs ago. My s is at USMMA and he said that they have had at least 3 sessions on sexual harassment and assault. One note, most of these incidents involve alcohol. In addition, regular college statistics are even worse than the academies for sexual assault. It still is a problem, but the military is working hard to deal with sexual harassment and assault.</p>

12

<p>kpmam, I am in agreement with you that the military is working hard to deal with sexual harassment and assault, as well they should. As to what their success is and will continue to be is debatable. I will share this with you: I am in contact regularly with both men and women I became friends with while at the USMMA. All of them share this belief: they would NEVER allow a daughter of theirs to attend the USMMA; neither would I.</p>

13

<p>


</p>

<p>Most graduates of Kings Point and USCGA realize that both of those Academies do not fall under the Department of Defense and thus would not be included in any investigations by such.</p>

<p>Any applicant to any school will be wise to investigate all their choices. I would also heed your earlier advice to visit the school and do an overnight visit. I cannot stress the importance of an overnight visit enough as you will be paired with a current female midshipmen who will be able to give you the best, most recent information.</p>

<p>No matter what sex you are life at Kings Point is difficult and not for everybody, please do not be scared away by inflammatory statements like "they would NEVER allow a daughter of theirs to attend the USMMA" and get first hand information from current midshipmen.</p>

<p>Us "has beens" can only give you anecdotal and old information regarding "what it's like."</p>

14

<p>We just finished putting our 6 kids through college. It took us 22 years, so we have been constantly hearing about what goes on in colleges. We also currently work with college students at Kings Point, and one of our sons went to Kings Point.</p>

<p>We have heard the stories about the regular colleges from our 5 who went that route, and many other college students we worked with. It is wild!!!! There are stories too at KP, but it is very mild in comparison to other schools. I know the majority of girls at KP. The incidences, as the girls will tell you, are alcohol related. The fellows get aggressive and the girls get less inhibited. That is an important area to handle with the girls.</p>

<p>There are sexual harrassment classes as was stated above. We talked to 1/3 of the plebe candidate class on Labor Day weekend, when we took them to a camp on the ocean overnight. The Band of Sisters have had sessions on how to handle it, and how not to get into bad situations. The upperclassmen are very open and honest. We work on the theory of preventative medicine, and clue the girls in before they get into a mess. I personally would send a daughter to Kings Point, as it is safer and more controlled than most other colleges, unless they are living at home.</p>

<p>I think a greater difficulty at KP is the girls have to be assertive, and have a tough skin. Because they are in the minority, they will be teased or criticized by the fellows. Some of them think girls should not be in the maritime. But I find the girls do just fine, have support from other girls, and stand on their own, and quickly earn the respect of most of the fellows. The girls agree that they are glad they are at KP. Perhaps a milk toast, very shy girl would do better at another school. Though I have met some of them at KP and they are doing just fine also.</p>

15

<p>Andersonnn, obviously these men and moms who were never females at KP have all of the answers. I hope you listen to them and if you do receive an appointment to the USMMA, I wish you all the best.</p>

16

<p>


</p>

<p>I would think that it would be quite presumptious for us to think that we "have all the answers." What I also think is presumptious is to think that someone who attended the Academy for a little over one year and never went to sea has the answers either. </p>

<p>The key is to talk to CURRENT female midshipmen and/or recent graduates.</p>

<p>I'm sorry kpnotforme, but your credibility as someone who can speak as to what it is like at the Academy for a female TODAY is suspect at best. Can you speak about what it was like in the early 90's....absolutely, and I think that those insights have a place in a discussion; however, you have given zero insight into your time there. You have simply given ambiguous and/or borderline inflammatory statements. Since my first day at the Academy there have been three Supe's and a multitude of Commandants who have all had their own influence on the place and I can assure you there have been even more changes since you were there.</p>

<p>Would you also not recommend service in the military for your daughter given the fact that if you had been a female in the military during the years you have firsthand knowledge of include the following tidbits of info: the tailhook scandal '91, no females as pilots in combat missions '93, first female F14 pilot '94. So, if you had been a female in the Navy in 1991 and left the service you would have had very little knowledge of life as a female in today's Navy. </p>

<p>Please understand that I am not here to be mean or to pretend I know what it is like at the Academy for a female; however, I can no longer stand aside and allow someone who has no prior posting history other than this thread and who has not been at the Academy in close to 20 years try to assume they know what it is like to be a female at "today's" Academy either.</p>

17

<p>"not here to be mean" -- very interesting. I find it suspect that a man who graduated KP in 2001 is so hostile to a woman who in his esteemed opinion couldn't hack it in the
90's. 2001 was 7 years ago. Seems like not much changed in the way women were treated in 2001 as to how I was treated in the 90's if I pick up on your attitude correctly -- though I may be reading more into your post than you truly mean and if this is the case, I apologize, and please set me straight. The statements I make are not inflammatory -- they are my experience. And as much as you might like to discredit me, neither you or anyone else can ever discredit MY experience, though you seem hell-bent on trying.</p>

<p>What type of insight would you like as to my time at the Academy? I will attempt to give you my experience, but I will not subject that experience to ridicule or anyone's dismissive attitude, including yours. I did that approximately 20 years ago and will NEVER do it again.</p>

<p>Regarding whether or not I would recommend service in the military to my daughters today (or in 8 years when my older daughter is 18, or in 16 years when my younger daughter is 18) and again YOU will say this is inflammatory, but it is MY truth: NEVER, NEVER, NEVER. </p>

<p>And since you've asked me for insight into my position on this subject, may I respectfully ask you if you would like your daughter to attend the USMMA? I'm not being rude, I'm simply curious.</p>

<p>From the age of 15 it was my goal to attend the USMMA as I had maritime career aspirations. I worked hard mentally, physically and emotionally to prepare for this. I received a congressional nomination, passed the physical with high scores not just for a girl, but for anyone, was cleared by Dodmerb, had high SAT scores, had a 4.0 gpa unweighted, had a Girl Scout Gold Award, more extra-curricular, community service and letters of recommendation than you could count, lettered in 2 sports and was team captain in one of those. I was an honor plebe during indoc. I was not, as has been suggested, a "milk toast, very shy girl" (whatever that was supposed to mean). After a year and a half I experienced a trauma through no fault of my own. This is key to understanding my feelings today. Subsequently, I quit (or as you were so kind to say resigned -- thanks for that =0) ). This trauma was significant, though as I've looked back on it over the years, and I wish I would have realized it at the time, so was all of the harassment heaped on women in my class. Again, if you would like specifics, feel free to ask, but please be clear as to what you would like to know. And I don't know that I would feel comfortable posting some of them here, not for the sake of my own privacy, but as not to discourage non-milk toast, non-shy girls from applying. This too is key to understanding my thoughts on women at the Academy and in the military. The older I get the more I realize just how young 18 really is. As they say, if I knew then what I know now. </p>

<p>And thank you for not being "mean". I truly do appreciate it. However, I was there, I was female and I had my experience. You were there, you were male and you had your experience. I have never attempted to discredit your experience, nor would I. It's apples and oranges. Unfortunately, history, especially such a rich history like that of the Academy's that is so deeply cherised by its alumni and student body, always repeats itself.</p>

18

<p>
[quote]
is so hostile to a woman who in his esteemed opinion couldn't hack it in the
90's.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I never said that I thought you couldn't hack it, in fact I never mentioned any reasons as to why you may have left the Academy because I have no idea why you left. People leave the school for any multitude of reasons including "wasn't what I thought", grades, discipline, or other personal reasons. There is a subset who attends who "can't hack it" and are disenrolled; however, that would not be my first thought when says they left the Academy.</p>

<p>
[quote]
And as much as you might like to discredit me, neither you or anyone else can ever discredit MY experience, though you seem hell-bent on trying.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I am in no way trying to discredit you or your time at the Academy. What I am trying to do is prevent one persons limited experience at the Academy dissuade any other young women from applying to an amazing school. I feel as though your experiences may not have any or only a limited relevance to the experience today for women at Kings Point.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Regarding whether or not I would recommend service in the military to my daughters today (or in 8 years when my older daughter is 18, or in 16 years when my younger daughter is 18) and again YOU will say this is inflammatory, but it is MY truth: NEVER, NEVER, NEVER. </p>

<p>And since you've asked me for insight into my position on this subject, may I respectfully ask you if you would like your daughter to attend the USMMA? I'm not being rude, I'm simply curious.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I would absolutely recommend Kings Point to my daughters as well as any service, enlisted or officer in any of the services. I believe the education there is top notch and all of the other skills learned make for a wonderful transition from teenager to young adult.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I was an honor plebe during indoc

[/quote]

I'm not sure that I would let anyone know this ;)</p>

<p>
[quote]
I was not, as has been suggested, a "milk toast, very shy girl" (whatever that was supposed to mean)

[/quote]

I don't think that line was directed at you particularly, but rather a general comment. It would be very rare for the person who made that comment to come anywhere near controversy :)</p>

<p>
[quote]
so was all of the harassment heaped on women in my class

[/quote]

See, this is where I think things have drastically changed from your time there and the reason why I am in this debate with you. I think the days of mass harassment like this towards women in the military is behind us. I would not be surprised to hear that it was still occuring when you were there as the first females had only been admitted somewhere around 12 years prior. Just look at the difference a few years have made at the Citadel and Kings Point has a much more tolerant history towards women than there.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Again, if you would like specifics, feel free to ask, but please be clear as to what you would like to know.

[/quote]

I don't think you need to post any specifics unless you wanted to, that would likely be more appropriate for a private discussion you may have with any future applicants who may want more information. For me, it is irrelevant to my side of the debate. </p>

<p>
[quote]
This too is key to understanding my thoughts on women at the Academy and in the military

[/quote]

This line should be in a disclaimer. Knowing how you feel about women in the Academy and the military shows your particular bias in this debate. One of the best classes I had in my multitude of years in class was about finding your own biases. It was an eye opening experience, but one that shows how one can be on one side of an argument or the other. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Unfortunately, history, especially such a rich history like that of the Academy's that is so deeply cherised by its alumni and student body, always repeats itself.

[/quote]

I disagree with you that it always repeats itself. I think progression is possible even in an institution with a "rich history." Just look at the Army, they now have a female four star General. That likely would not have happened in the early 90's.</p>

<p>I think we can agree however that Kings Point is a tough place to be and it can be more difficult for females at times. I would not let that dissuade any females from applying.</p>

19

<p>Before this goes any further, and believe me, I can go on about this subject, I would like some clarity as to the purpose of this board. If its purpose, and looking through EVERY single thread and posting this does seem to be the case, is to only show the good aspects of the Academy, then my time here is being wasted. If its purpose is to show an accurate depiction of someone's time at the Academy, even if that someone was there almost 20 years ago, then please let me know and I'll continue. But if I'm too over the hill to be of service to this forum, I'll be glad to go away. Thank you.</p>

<p>I am not one-sided or biased. I do recognize the good aspects of the Academy. You couldn't find a more beautiful waterfront IMHO, sliding down the hill after the first snow of the year was remarkable, I met some wonderful friends who I still see and speak with today, the classes were difficult, but interesting to someone who wanted to be in the maritime field, spirit missions were fun, the sound of the bell ringing again and again after licensing exams were passed, running through the streets of a beautiful community and stopping to swing at the playground in Stepping Stone and on and on and on.</p>

20

<p>kpnotforme, I believe that it's certainly okay to express your opinions and give your insight from your experiences. I think everyone is giving their opinions, then others can sift through all of them and learn. This should be an open forum, where everyone is free to express themselves. If there was less criticism on the responses we might all hear more about what people think.</p>

<p>I sensed from when you first started writing on this thread that you had been hurt, and later you used the word "assault". None of us need to know any details, but I want to say, that I am very sorry that you were hurt. When I wrote, I was expressing different methods that are in place NOW for helping to prevent hurts for girls. I think that it is helping currently. It's not 100% that a girl won't get hurt, but possibly there's much less chance than when you attended. I hope so.</p>

<p>I do not think you are a "milk toast, shy" kind of person. That is obvious from your gumption to express openly your opinions. That was only a thought I had about others, that possibly that type of girl might find it a little harder at the academy. Though, they are here at the academy and doing just fine.</p>

<p>I hope that you had the privilege of going beyond your KP experience and fulfilling all your desires and dreams. I wish you and your girls the best.</p>