Good schools for History and Pre-law?

College Search & Selection
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<p>My UMich GPA is 3.67, which does put me slightly below average. However, I am first generation and I grew up very low-income and now have two parents out of work (disabled and laid off) and live off of social security. And my grades this year again were due to depression, anxiety, and the fact that I missed so much school because of health issues. </p>

<p>But if Michigan doesn't want me, I don't want them (meaning they know what they're looking for and if I'm not it then I probably wouldn't of been a good fit anyways). That'll be my attitude to all colleges I apply to. I have had a crappy childhood but I turned that into making a fairly successful non-profit girls basketball league, I work at a teen crisis center, and I volunteer like crazy. My motto has been when life gives you lemons, make lemonade. I will be perfectly happy going to MSU because no matter where I go I will make the best of it and I'd rather save my money for law school.</p>

<p>So thank you Hawkette for your faith in me, and Alexandre and rjk for giving me good advice, but I am asking you not to attack each other over this. </p>

<p>Thanks all :).</p>

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<p>Sorry that sounded a bit preachy, it wasn't supposed to be, but I tend to ramble.</p>

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<p>romanigypsyeyes,
I love your attitude and it sounds like the folks at the crisis center are lucky to have you, not to mention whatever college you end up at. Good luck next year with all of your applications and keep on making that lemonade! :)</p>

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<p>ElderCookies,
It's true that law schools look more closely at undergrad GPA and LSAT scores (especially the latter) more closely than they used to, due in large part to pressure from USN rankings, but it's just flatly false to say that's all they care about. The quality of the undergraduate school also matters a great deal, for several reasons. First, the better the school, the more likely that a student with a good GPA from that school will succeed in law school. Second, they assume, probably rightly on average, that students from better schools will come to law school with more and better developed tools in their intellectual toolkit, which will add more to the overall strength of the incoming law school class and make law school a better, richer intellectual experience for everyone. Third, they assume that incoming students with a stronger undergraduate education will on average ultimately make better and more resourceful lawyers, which will reflect well on their institution and improve how they are perceived by the bench, bar, and their peer institutions. So other things equal, a student with an undergrad degree from Stanford will have a better chance at admission to more top law schools than a student with a similar GPA and LSAT scores from Cal State-Fullerton. And frankly, a Michigan grad's chances of admission will be much stronger than a Michigan State grad's, and the Michigan State grad's chances will be better than a Central Michigan grad's, and on down the line.</p>

25

<p>You'll definitly want to look at places that offer a lot of study abroad oppurtunities. How cool would it be to spend a year visiting the ruins of everything! You want a school that has a reputable pre-law program but honestly, most of them are pretty equal.</p>

26

<p>
[quote]
One does not have to attend a top 10 or top 20 or even top 30 university

[/quote]
There's only one caveat with this though. If you're a really good student, it's important to be in a place where you can really show how good of a student you are. For instance, at UF I know someone who has a 4.0, which means he's not really showing graduate schools his full potential because he already has a perfect GPA. In other words, if he went to a tougher school, his GPA would be more meaningful.</p>

27

<p>^^ The only problem is that a lot of people can't afford tougher schools than their state universities.</p>

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<p>You should not worry about trying to get into a prestigious law school. Big law firms are the only ones that put a premium on where a lawyer attended law school, and big law firms don't do children's rights law. Good grades at Michigan State and a good score on the LSAT will enable you to get into many good law schools.</p>

29

<p>
[quote]

It's true that law schools look more closely at undergrad GPA and LSAT scores (especially the latter) more closely than they used to, due in large part to pressure from USN rankings, but it's just flatly false to say that's all they care about.

[/quote]
Those are the MAIN criterion. All schools (with the exceptions of YS) will admit you if your application is at their 75% range as a sure thing, unless something is really wrong with your application. It is only when you tie with other applicants (when you are borderline) that your soft factors play a role. Soft factors matter then yes, but otherwise-no. All evidence seems to suggest this that I have seen.</p>

<p>
[quote]

The quality of the undergraduate school also matters a great deal, for several reasons. First, the better the school, the more likely that a student with a good GPA from that school will succeed in law school.

[/quote]
Debatable</p>

<p>
[quote]

Second, they assume, probably rightly on average, that students from better schools will come to law school with more and better developed tools in their intellectual toolkit, which will add more to the overall strength of the incoming law school class and make law school a better, richer intellectual experience for everyone. Third, they assume that incoming students with a stronger undergraduate education will on average ultimately make better and more resourceful lawyers, which will reflect well on their institution and improve how they are perceived by the bench, bar, and their peer institutions. So other things equal,

[/quote]
Thats the rub really. Applicants are rarely totally tied, and with the right numbers you are fine.</p>

<p>
[quote]

a student with an undergrad degree from Stanford will have a better chance at admission to more top law schools than a student with a similar GPA and LSAT scores from Cal State-Fullerton.

[/quote]
If they both have great scores, then both will get in everywhere but YS.

[quote]

And frankly, a Michigan grad's chances of admission will be much stronger than a Michigan State grad's,

[/quote]
Nope</p>

<p>
[quote]

and the Michigan State grad's chances will be better than a Central Michigan grad's, and on down the line.

[/quote]
Totally wrong. Visit toplawschools.com and look up some of the threads on this, and the result threads. A limited sample but law school numbers etc, and every other sources seems to show that numbers are more important than anything else.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
^^ The only problem is that a lot of people can't afford tougher schools than their state universities.

[/quote]
That's not necessarily true if you know which schools give good financial aid. You have to be willing to incur some debt, but I think that's reasonable if the school really ignites your passion. </p>

<p>Out of the top 30 schools, I'd say UVa, Rice, Vanderbilt, UNC, Cal Tech, Dartmouth, and HYPSMC all give reasonable financial aid.</p>

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<p>ElderCookies,
I still say you're dead wrong about this. I did look at top-law-schools.com. Most of the current threads are laments that the model that assumes law school admission is all about GPA and LSAT scores didn't work for candidates who didn't get into schools they expected to get into under that model. As I said before, GPAs and LSATs are hugely important, especially at the top of the prestige rankings because law schools at that level are competing so fiercely for US News rankings. But all they really care about are 25th and 75th percentile GPAs and LSATs. If you're in the top quartile for BOTH GPA and LSAT, you're almost a dead lock for admission. If not, other factors will matter along with GPA and LSAT, and the perceived quality of your undergraduate education---not only where you went to school but what you did there--is one of the most important factors. Believe me, I know lots of members of law school admission committees who spend endless hours every year poring over applications and trying to weigh incommensurable "soft" factors to decide who gets and offer and who doesn't. If it were purely a function of GPAs and LSATs, they wouldn't bother.</p>

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<p>I already said soft factors come in when you are tied with others. I have to say though you must not be visiting the same top law schools as I was. If you want to delude yourself into thinking numbers are not 39379379373973993% more important than soft factors go ahead.</p>

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<p>I would try and go to a good LAC- Hamilton, Colby, etc. Also, if you do end up somewhere you aren't in love with, its much easier to transfer into UofM with solid grades after one semester of college.</p>

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<p>Look at it this way: 1/4 of the entering class at any law school will be below that school's 25th percentile in GPA. Within that fraction of the class---concededly marginal admits, but a numerically large group---marginal differences in GPA are not going to affect USN rankings one way or the other. Remember, USN cares about medians, not means, so if the school's 25th percentile GPA is 3.50, then as far as USN rankings are concerned a 3.49 and a 3.0 are equivalent numbers, both in the bottom quartile. At the level of deciding who gets into that bottom part of the class, then, everyone is "tied" on GPA. Or, more precisely, GPAs are reduced in importance to just one more "soft factor" used in determining candidate strength. At that level, a 3.0 from Harvard is, rightly or wrongly, going to count for a whole lot more than a 3.0 from Podunk State, and in the minds of some admissions committee members the Harvard 3.0 might very well count for a whole lot more than a 3.49 from Podunk State. </p>

<p>But it doesn't stop there. Another large fraction of the class, possibly as much as another quarter, will have GPAs above the 25th percentile, but LSAT scores below the 25th percentile. Within that group, marginal differences in LSAT scores won't matter, for all the same reasons that marginal differences in GPA don't matter for the sub-25th percentile GPA group. But marginal differences in GPA won't really matter for this group, either, so long as they're between the 25th and 75th percentile. Any GPA between a 25th percentile 3.50 and a 75th percentile figure of, say, 3.75 has exactly the same impact on the USN rankings---that is to say, none. So for this group, too, GPAs within a very large band are effectively "ties." </p>

<p>Adding those two groups together, that means for as much as half the entering class, marginal differences in GPAs are simply irrelevant, except as one of many "soft indicators" of candidate strength. </p>

<p>On the other hand, if the median 25th percentile GPA is sitting at 3.50 then a 3.51 from Podunk State is going to beat a 3.49 from Harvard every time, because the Podunk State applicant marginally pulls up the 25th percentile median while the Harvard 3.49 marginally pulls it down. Sometimes small, seemingly statistically insignificant differences in numbers are determinative. Sometimes even seemingly large numerical disparities are of trivial importance. It just depends on what they mean (if anything) toward those 25th and 75th percentile scores. </p>

<p>I think it's a grave error to think law school admissions is purely a numbers game. It's more of a numbers game than is healthy, and the effect of USN rankings is clearly pernicious. But at the end of the day, it's not just about numbers, and anyone who thinks it is is badly deluding himself..</p>

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<p>Oh, and one more thing, ElderCoookies. I went to THE top law school, and taught for a number of years at another one in the top five. I do know what I'm talking about.</p>

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<p>You seem to be focused on GPA, which we both know is secondary to your LSAT score. While numbers in the ranges you cite do indeed have no effect, the LSAT score would be more important anyway. So for someone who has a median GPA a high LSAT will be all you need to be admitted. Trying to hone in on GPA as if it is the main criterion is highly egregious. It seems unlikely that a student with an LSAT score slightly above the schools median would be rejected if their GPA is also decent. </p>

<p>We are not really disagreeing with each other. I have already said that soft factors ARE counted; I maintain that numbers are still much more important. I would bet you a million $ that someone with a 3.9 and a 174 would get into every top 14 school except for YS. </p>

<p>While I greatly respect anyone who attended Yale law , and taught law....these facts mean nothing in this discussion, unless you worked in the admissions office or learned a great deal how their adcoms works. I find it unlikely you did this at Yale as a student, but we all know how their admissions work (that whole profs read the apps rate them thing). If you did have some serious connection when you taught than I suppose you know much more about it then I do. If you just taught there then I can not imagine it is relevant to bring up.</p>

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<p>I'm not saying GPA is more important than LSAT. But the same logic applies to LSAT scores as to GPAs. A quarter of the entering class at any law school will be below that school's 25th percentile LSAT score. Once you're at that level, any two LSAT scores are functionally "ties" for purposes of influencing the school's USN rankings, so the LSAT's importance is diminished and other factors like GPA, undergrad school, diversity considerations, etc. take on much greater importance. And at other levels, too, marginal differences in LSAT are often a lot less important than they might appear to those not in the know, so long as they are within ranges that don't affect the medians.</p>

<p>Now law schools do tend to place somewhat greater weight on LSAT than GPA, partly because it matters more in the USN rankings (.15 of total USN ranking for LSAT, .10 for GPA), partly because studies have shown the LSAT is the single best predictor of first year law school performance (although it bears virtually no correlation with success beyond the first year), and partly because GPAs aren't strictly comparable between schools. My only point is that while both LSAT and GPAs, and especially LSATs do matter, it's just a gross oversimplification---actually, an outright falsehood---to say that law school admissions is strictly a function of numbers. </p>

<p>I'm not going to take your bet on the the 3.9 and 174, because those numbers would put a candidate in the top quartile in both GPA and LSAT at just about any law school in the country. At that level, the numbers do dominate; any candidate in the top quartile in BOTH categories is just about a dead sure lock for admission, But considerably less than a quarter of the entering class (because some top quartile LSAT scores will go with lower GPAs and vice versa) will be in that exalted category. For most admits, factors other than GPA and LSAT also matter. That's my only point. It appears you're willing to concede it. I accept your concession. </p>

<p>Finally, let me say that I know about law school admissions only because I've spent a lot of time talking about it with the people who actually do it, and I follow the process quite closely as someone with a keen professional interest in it since these blasted USN rankings end up influencing a lot of aspects of the life of a law school, far more than they should. And I thought it a useful public service to correct some of the misinformation being spread on the internet rumor mill, that's all.</p>

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<p>Fordham in NYC would be a good option (its slight reach based on your current stats); they have a top 25 law school and history is their strongest area.</p>

39

<p>romani, if you are looking into MSU and pre-law, I'd definitely look also at the James madison college, a residential college within MSU. There are 4 majors: Constitutional Democracy and Political Theory, International relations, comparative cultures and politics, and social relations and policy. It has a 90% placement rate 6 months after graduation (40% go to grad. school, 1/2 of those, about 20% of MSU-james madison college grads go to law school)among other stats. A double major in james madison college and history is also an option</p>

40

<p>I don't really see that BLlintock and Eldercookies are disagreeing, except that BLlintock seems to think that prestige of a school is a soft factor that is weighed heavily by a legal admission Committee when LSAT and GPA are equal, or that prestige might even offset a slightly lower GPA. </p>

<p>My personal opinion is that the benefits of a prestigious institution are vastly over-rated by the individuals who have tied their personal identity to their undergrad school...although I understand that many on CC would disagree. Yale Law School's web site lists the undergrad institutions of entering classes, and you will find a surprising assortment of schools. I also know two lawyers who went to Ivys who only got into 3rd and 4th tier law schools based on their GPA/LSAT index, so I don't think undergrad prestige means that much anymore when there are 5-10 qualified candidates with impressive ECs for every spot in good law school.</p>

<p>I will admit that individuals who test very well on the SAT and have shown themselves to be high-achievers in high school are those who have the potential to be high-achievers in college too, which then extends to their chances for professional schools. I will also acknowledge that for someone who plans on becoming a legal professor, to work for certain law firms, or to tap into a certain network of alumni, prestige still has some importance. </p>

<p>Otherwise, it would be my opinion that a student looking ahead to law school should go to the school where they believe they will get the best GPA and study hard to get great LSAT scores. (Based on being a 30+ yr lawyer, working for Fort. 500 - parent of a kid at a top 50 public taking the LSAT in June).</p>