Harvard or Yale? Any advice will be much appreciated!

Parent Cafe
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<p>I am an international student who got into both Harvard and Yale. But I cannot decide which school to attend. I have done my research on both, and I have talked to a lot of students from both, but still I cannot decide. I just need the perspective of some adults on this.</p>

<p>Here in my country I cannot rely on anybody, including parents, teachers, relatives, for an informed opinion because they have either not heard about these schools, or they have heard only of Harvard.</p>

<p>The latter try to push me towards H. When I ask them for their reasons, they just say:" You know, it is H, it is #1, it is the best!" I am under such pressure from all sides, that I feel that I will soon collapse. I just want to make the right decision for me, but I don’t know which school would be the best fit for me. I am more a humanities type. I am interested in Political science/ International Relations. I will probably take as a second major some language (Chinese or Spanish). I am interested in study abroad and internships, but research opportunities are not that important to me. Extracurricularly I will devote myself to my top two priorities – theater and community service, but I would also like to try out new things. I would like a diverse and friendly student body. A liberal atmosphere devoid of academic pressure and competition as well as a strong school spirit are also important to me. I want my profs to be knowledgeable, accessible, and interested in me, but I am not one of those students that constantly needs to be flooded with attention. I am independent and I can cope on my own, but I would just like to know that help and advice are around when I need them. That sums it up pretty well…</p>

<p>So what do you think: H or Y?</p>

<p>Thank you very much for your help. I really appreciate it.</p>

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<p>Mariela, everything that you have described is found in abundance at both Harvard and Yale. They are very, very similar. In my case, I give the edge to Harvard primarily because I think the location is better. If you're not able to visit, and the two schools are equally strong in the qualities you care about (which I believe they are), I don't think it's the end of the world to let your family's advice be a tipping factor -- otherwise you're almost in the position of flipping a coin.</p>

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<p>For community service that is student-run, you simply cannot beat the Phillips Brooks House Association (PBHA) at Harvard. Check out <a href="http://www.pbha.org%5B/url%5D"&gt;www.pbha.org&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Extracurriculars at Harvard are extensive and very active. </p>

<p>The American Repertory Theatre (<a href="http://www.amrep.org%5B/url%5D"&gt;www.amrep.org&lt;/a&gt;) is the professional company and a multitude of student theater groups provide plenty of theatrical opportunities for students.</p>

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<p>A new study showed that Harvard students were less happy with their college choice than Yale students. Also, Yale has the edge for theater.</p>

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<p>Most folks will generally tell you that the "in classroom" experience is better at Yale, and the "out of classroom" experience better at Harvard. Harvard students do express lots of dissatisfaction with the "in classroom" experience, both anecdotally and statistically. Since no one person ever attends both of them, all opinions are to some extent ignorant.</p>

<p>Each year, says Yale on their website, only about 100 students do study abroad during the school year. This is a very, very low percentage relative to other schools, but, it should be noted, Harvard's percentage is likely lower. Many do study or do other things abroad during the summer (and both colleges have funds for this purpose.) I can't tell which is "better", but I can tell you that Harvard is better known for community service. Yale does have the Yale Repertory Theatre, which actually may make it worse for undergrads, as you are competing with grad students for opportunities.</p>

<p>(I too think H's location is better. Both will have everything you want academically.)</p>

<p>What a nice problem! ;)</p>

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<p>My S went to H. Graduated in 1994. Still living in the Cambridge, MA, area. You cannot beat Harvard for its location. The restaurants, the theater, the Red Sox (I'm sorry to say...I AM a Yankee fan) ..."it's like living in a museum" ( he used to say about living in the Harvard Yard. You can't beat it...and if you are like him, you will stay there forever! Go for H!!!</p>

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<p>Mariela:</p>

<p>What a great dilemma. Both are terrific colleges. My own son will be going to Harvard next fall and plans on doing a semester in Budapest eventually. Harvard is making a big push to encourage students to study abroad. Currently, the percentage of students who do so is about the same as at Yale or Princeton, that is very low. If you are interested in Chinese, Yale has Jonathan Spence, who is a mesmerizing lecturer; but Harvard has the largest concentration of specialists in East Asia in different fields.</p>

<p>Perhaps the biggest difference is the location and the housing system, not to mention architecture. Yale has the 4-year residential college system. Harvard houses its freshmen in dorms located in the Yard. At the end of freshman year, they are lotteried into houses in self-formed groups of 7 or 8; they will spend the next 3 years in these houses which, like the Yale residential colleges, will form the backdrop for a lot of their social activities.</p>

<p>Both Harvard and Yale have excellent extra-curricular activities, but Harvard is famous for its range and intensity. Yale is close to NYC, which is a plus. Harvard is located in the middle of Cambridge and is across the river from Boston. The Cambridge/Boston area is one giant college town. </p>

<p>Either way, you cannot go wrong. But I'll be interested in which way you end up going.</p>

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<p>I agree that Harvard is definitely better known for community service than Yale. Sometimes, however, it is best to cite facts. For instance, Peace Corps volunteers in 2004 who were alumni of</p>

<p>Harvard 23
Yale 33</p>

<p>This in spite of the fact that the Harvard undergraduate population alone is 25% larger than Yale's.</p>

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<p>But that has little to do with community service or other ECs while in college! And furthermore, using only one type of community service to suggest overall rate of participation is disingenuous. Who knows what other forms of community service Harvard students have undertaken since graduating? Sheesh. I'm not saying that Harvard students are more public-minded than Yalies, just that this is not a good argument.</p>

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<p>(and, of course, there were 27...from Grinnell!)</p>

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<p><a href="http://www.yaledailynews.com/article.asp?AID=25953%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.yaledailynews.com/article.asp?AID=25953&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p><a href="http://www.yale.edu/ppsf/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.yale.edu/ppsf/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p><a href="http://www.yalealumnimagazine.com/archive/newhaven.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.yalealumnimagazine.com/archive/newhaven.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Community service is very popular with Yale undergrads. What makes me think that Yale would be perfect for you, however, is your interest in the humanities and languages. Yale takes great pride in its humanities departments and the well-rounded education that the undergraduates receive. In your shoes, I'd pick Yale for undergrad, and perhaps Harvard for grad school, depending on what your final major is.</p>

<p>My D is a student at Yale (soph), so if you have any questions you'd like to ask, feel free to send them to my private mail on this board.</p>

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<p>Mariela:</p>

<p>Congratulations on two great acceptances. Both Harvard and Yale are wonderful, but ...</p>

<pre><code> Cambridge vs. New Haven: Cambridge, hands down
Travel to/from: Cambridge, hands down
</code></pre>

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<p>Hmm... Not so sure about this. NYC has many more flights going to many more destinations than Logan (Boston). For someone from Eastern Europe, that might be of interest.</p>

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<p>I have to throw in my thougths based on your own words:</p>

<p>"I am interested in Political science/ International Relations. I will probably take as a second major some language (Chinese or Spanish). I am interested in study abroad and internships, but research opportunities are not that important to me. Extracurricularly I will devote myself to my top two priorities – theater and community service, but I would also like to try out new things. I would like a diverse and friendly student body. A liberal atmosphere devoid of academic pressure and competition as well as a strong school spirit are also important to me. I want my profs to be knowledgeable, accessible, and interested in me, but I am not one of those students that constantly needs to be flooded with attention. I am independent and I can cope on my own, but I would just like to know that help and advice are around when I need them. "</p>

<p>Here is why I think Yale is a great choice for you...
1) President Levin has a tremendous partnership going on right now with China, hosting their top educators here...and also visiting there with some of Yale's best and brightest....agree that study abroad seems to be missing from Yale and Harvard, won't you already be studying abroad? ha ha.....seriously, I believe that during your 4 years you may actually see new and different opportunities opening up at Yale because of the increased effort by Yale to grow their international presence.......
2) Theater and Community Service can be found ANYWHERE in America if you want to find it.......community service is a requirement at most American HS.....and there are numerous activities available in New Haven alone......but, it was your interest in trying new things that got my attention....my son is a freshman at Yale and has been participating in the residential college competition called the Tyng Cup....he is on the co-ed tennis team, he is on the billards team, he is on the ultimate frisbee team and he is doing both club ski team (skied in Canada over XMAS break) and club badmiton, he has played tennis in HS, badmiton in the back yard, but he is really learning how to play competitively and having a lot of fun.... he even went to a meeting or two on fencing, something he has never ever had a chance to do..... the residential college competition is all voluntary, there are numerous (26?) different activities you can sign up for and it is a great way to have fun and meet a variety of people...that friendly and diverse study body you were talking about....the Tyng Cup is won by the college with the most points and the highest GPA....so academics matter in this friendly rivalry..
3) the residential college system is without a doubt one of the best ways to feel at home in a new place, you immediately have folks that are your friends....that are freshman, sophmores, juniors and seniors. Makes it easier to pick the brains of upperclassmen/women on any subject you want to know more about..... the residential college bond is a bond for life..... an immediate family that lasts forever...
4) liberal atmosphere, strong school spirit, are a given at both, but the academic pressure at Harvard is greater in my opinion.... the competition at Harvard is a pressure cooker and my view is that your ability at Yale is a given, you don't have to prove yourself over and over every single day. Look at the Yale Harvard game prank that Yale played on Harvard at this year's big game......the greatest moment in that game was when the Yale band member stole the Harvard flag and
ran it to the Yale sideline and threw it up into the stands..... it was sooo funny....here is a link to that web site, hopefully you will see the humor in this:
<a href="http://harvardsucks.org/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://harvardsucks.org/&lt;/a>
5) help and advice are always around the corner, via professors if desired, but within the Residential College system, you have a Dean who is free to help you withacademic and social life issues and challenges....and a Master who is responsible for all facilities and programs (studies and teas) that the college provides. Here is a link
to the Who's Who of Saybrook College, just 1 residential college.....
<a href="http://www.yale.edu/saybrook/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.yale.edu/saybrook/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>I personally think you should go to Yale for undergraduate, and then consider Harvard for graduate work....when you will be able to take better advantage of the city of Boston..... most undergraduates do not
need more than what New Haven offers, and if they do, the trains make NYC and Boston very available.....</p>

<p>agree with many others that these are 2 great choices... best wishes in your decision...</p>

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<p>This is just untrue. Surely you can find ways to encourage a student to choose Yale without repeating myths about Harvard. Furthermore, the deans and masters of the Houses at Harvard provide the same support and resources as at Yale (both housing systems were designed by the same people, working from the same model), so I don't think that is a point by which to distinguish the schools.</p>

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<p>What has impressed me about Yale is how incredibly supportive and helpful the students are to each other. It's a very collegial atmosphere.</p>

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<p>Hanna,
I am not repeating a myth...personal experience about a gal at Harvard who is very unhappy.... along with an individual now at Yale who was at Harvard for over 10 yrs... their take is "everyone" at Harvard is afraid of being exposed for knowing nothing....which is obviously not the case, but the implication is that they all are in a constant state of competition which is not what this individual is looking for in their undergraduate experience...... just one perspective, I didn't even cite the articles from the Crimson that detailed the undergraduate mindset that reflect a lot of unhappiness at Harvard....vs the environment at Yale which seems to be lighter and more joyful by comparison...here are the links to the articles, Part 1 and Part 2..and I closed by saying that they were both great choices..... I was just trying to zero in on the specifics cited to assist in understanding the options better.....</p>

<p><a href="http://www.sigep.org/cla_resources/Harvard%20Crimson%20-%20Cult%20of%20Yale%20Pt%201.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.sigep.org/cla_resources/Harvard%20Crimson%20-%20Cult%20of%20Yale%20Pt%201.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p><a href="http://www.sigep.org/cla_resources/Harvard%20Crimson%20-%20Cult%20of%20Yale%20Pt%202.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.sigep.org/cla_resources/Harvard%20Crimson%20-%20Cult%20of%20Yale%20Pt%202.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>it is also my understanding that the housing assignments at Harvard vs Yale were not the same, at Harvard, all freshman live together, but not part of a specific residential college as freshmen, rather they are assigned to the residential college for soph, junior and senior years....which is not as supportive as the freshman assignment at Yale, Yale freshman eat in their residential college dining hall beginning as freshman and as such have more exposure to upperclassmen sooner....and I think the Dean is a 4 yr presence for academic choices, vs Harvard which appears to be more centered around guidance within departments? this is the link to FAQ on Harvard for international applicants:
<a href="http://www.admissions.college.harvard.edu/faqs/international/residential/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.admissions.college.harvard.edu/faqs/international/residential/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>hope that is more thorough......</p>

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<p>I don't know why Harvard students are unhappy. My S, who has audited a number of courses at Harvard has not felt the competitive atmosphere--that could be because he is not really part of the student community and has never cared about other people's grades. He HAS had a lot of support from other students and was welcomed into their study groups. </p>

<p>I think it is universally acknowledged that freshman advising at Harvard is deficient. I gather from the Crimson that there is little support among students for going to the 4-year Yale-style residential college model even though the writers recognized that a lot of advising comes from upperclassmen. </p>

<p>Really, the two colleges are so good and so similar in many ways that it really depends on the personality of the student. And that, we do not know.l</p>

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<p>That's completely arguable. You could look at it the other way, and say that while freshmen at Yale must compete with upperclassmen for the attention of their college advising staff, at Harvard freshmen have a dedicated adult (the proctor) who lives only with them and whose entire job is devoted to guiding those freshmen. Furthermore, Harvard freshmen have the opportunity to bond first with one another before forming a separate identity, and to choose a supportive group of friends they want to live with when they are assigned to a House, even if they weren't assigned together as freshman. The Harvard student body as a whole is against switching to Yale-style assignment. Personally, I couldn't care less whether they switch, because taken as a whole, I believe this argument is a wash. Both systems provide terrific support and community to students and inspire life-long loyalty and allegiance to the College/House.</p>

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<p>How do you know that they are?</p>

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<p>How do you know that they are?>></p>

<p>I'm going by the leaked reports from COFHE, which noone in the Harvard administration has refuted. I am not saying they are more less unhappy than students at other colleges--just that some have reported dissatisfaction with aspects of their experience.</p>