Personally, I would find it objectionable for a private college like Harvard to attempt to tell students what private off-campus clubs they may and may not joint. @cobrat, does Oberlin prohibit its students from being members of the Roman Catholic Church? It’s quite exclusionary in a number of respects.
Porcellian is the most extreme example of its type, and it is tiny in comparison to the size of the student body. I realize that some of these “now I’m not going to apply to Harvard” posts were tongue in cheek, but to those who actually think that the Porcellian represents Harvard, you are mistaken.
One of my BIL’s brothers was a member of Porcellian. (And stroke of the Harvard crew. Very hard core.) And yes, a fairly horrible person.
No. However, that’s an apples and durians comparison as the Roman Catholic Church as a religious organization is a member of a protected class and Oberlin needs to comply if it’s to continue receiving Federal research grant and funding for Federal FA grants/loans.
Also, the Roman Catholic Church isn’t nearly as exclusionary in many respects as socially exclusive clubs like the Porcellian. As a non-Catholic, I wasn’t barred from attending/visiting their churches or attending their private schools.
Heck, I even got to take part in communion despite not being a baptized Catholic due to an oversight on the Church’s part with my second-grade class and still being 6(One needed to be 7 as that’s considered the age when one is aware enough to take part) at the time.
Last I checked, fraternities/sororities and other secret societies aren’t part of the protected class and thus, not covered. Incidentally, one of the key reasons why the ban was instituted was because the exclusionary aspects of such organizations was felt by the admins and students in the 1870’s to be corrosive and detrimental to the college’s efforts to create an inclusive campus community.
Out of curiosity, would you have the same objections of religious fundamentalist colleges banning students from joining organizations which they felt directly conflict with the religious values in their charter/mission statement.
For instance, Liberty U’s handbook bans students from joining/taking part in organization/political demonstrations which directly conflicts with their religious values. They are likely to argue not only on the basis of religion and being a private U, but also on the unfettered “right to free association” as they receive no Federal or public funding of any kind.
@Hunt that is an interesting point.
The article calls it a “Social Club at Harvard.” If it is no longer associated with Harvard, and not operating on Harvard property, then there is really nothing that Harvard can do about it. It turns out that Harvard has some bigoted alumni, like every other school. That is unfortunate, but not a surprise.
@cobrat, the difference between Harvard and Liberty University is that Harvard is a university and stands for liberty.
While that’s a nice bit of lawyerly rhetoric, that doesn’t address the critical distinctions between an organization which is part of a protected class under the law(religious groups) and one which isn’t(Finals clubs, fraternities/sororities, secret societies, and other socially exclusive clubs)…
Why would Harvard want to do anything about this club, its policies or its behavior? It’s filled with 1% of 1%-ers. People who endow chairs, schools, and laboratories. Of course Harvard will shrug its shoulders at this storm in a tea cup.
@cobrat, let me put it a bit more plainly: in my opinion, it is inappropriately high-handed for a school that supposedly supports academic freedom to attempt to restrict students from membership in off-campus organizations. I guess I can understand why a school with a more limited mission (like Liberty, or perhaps a service academy) might have such restrictions, I don’t think it’s appropriate for Harvard–or Oberlin–to do this. College students are mostly adults, after all.
Schools like Oberlin could conversely argue that they are exercising their academic freedom along with a limited* right of free association by exercising their right as private institutions to place conditions on prospective/current undergrads who desire to matriculate or maintain enrollment status once admitted.
In Oberlin’s case, it’s an effort to create an inclusive campus community where all student clubs/organizations must be open to all students who express an interest in joining/participating. Only exceptions were those which are selective on academic merit like Phi Beta Kappa.
Part of that effort is to ban clubs/social organizations and “secret societies” which have socially exclusive membership criteria or student membership in them even if off campus. If the student isn’t happy with such conditions, there are plenty of colleges which do allow and encourage such organizations to exist and its students to be members.
It’s also absurd to argue this is a form of “oppression” when historically, such exclusive college social clubs tended to be heavily populated by those from the most powerful, well-connected, and privileged families/backgrounds…many of whom were active in behaving and implementing policies which discriminated against marginalized groups currently part of the protected classes under the law.
- Can't ban students or organizations which are part of protected classes....including religious organizations or else they lose Federal/public funding for academic research and FA grants/loans.
^ that’s who issued the statement, not some student. This guy is older than I am and I have two college student kids.
H can do what all the other colleges and Us that have banned fraternities and sororities have done. Not the ones that said “not on campus, we don’t recognize you” but those that have said “our students may not join”.
In those cases they’re gone or gone underground with much decreased participation.
And people still associate with whom they want to.
“These people own a building in Harvard Yard?”
No. Harvard owns Harvard Yard. The final clubs are all private clubs located near the campus but not on school property. About 10% of Harvard men and 5% of the women belong to a final club. The rest basically have little or nothing to do with them.
Final clubs are sort of Harvard’s version of frats (although they have a few off-campus Greek-letter frats too) in that they are exclusive, private clubs where the boys can get together and party, feel special for getting in, exclude those they don’t like, and behave like frat-boy jerks if the so choose.
Final clubs are very much a Big Deal to the small minority of the student body who are final club members and wannabes. To everyone else they basically do not exist. In her four years at H I don’t recall my daughter ever uttering the phrase “final club.” She certainly never mentioned Porcellian. They just weren’t part of her Harvard world.
Sure. They just don’t do it by joining fraternities or sororities.
When I think of Porcellian, I think of the Winklevoss twins and their portrayal in The Social Network. :-&
"Final clubs are very much a Big Deal to the small minority of the student body who are final club members and wannabes. To everyone else they basically do not exist. In her four years at H I don’t recall my daughter ever uttering the phrase “final club.” "
Exactly. That’s why they aren’t worth bothering with. They aren’t important.
“Incidentally, the Porcellian Club blackballed FDR…”
Porc also blackballed Joseph P. Kennedy, and Kennedy was always convinced that it was because he was Catholic. Supposedly, this early snub formed the nucleus of Kennedy’s push to succeed in business, politics, and social standing - and if not become president himself at least get one of his sons into the office.
When his son JFK came along in the next generation he did join a final club - but not Procellian. He belonged to Spee.
A very understandable conclusion considering such clubs were full of members who were deeply anti-Catholic or anyone who weren’t deemed “suitable” by the upper-class WASP elite members who dominated such clubs in that era and Joseph P. Kennedy grew up in an era when anti-Catholic and anti-Irish prejudices were widely and blatantly practiced.
By the time JFK attended college, his family’s political rise and the lessening of such prejudices in the elite allowed him more access to such clubs than was the case in his father’s generation.
“When I think of Porcellian, I think of the Winklevoss twins and their portrayal in The Social Network.”
@doschicos LOL, me too. Except I ALWAYS think of them as Winklevi!
Storey obviously had no idea how his comments would be spun. Women aren’t allowed in the Porcellian now. This is different from other finals clubs that do allow women in for dances/parties, which is when harassment occurs, presumably. I think Storey was making a logical argument that there is now zero harassment of women going on now because women never enter the club, and that by forcing them to have women present, there would be an increase in at least accusations of harassment. I don’t think he was saying that members would not be able to control themselves. I think he was being logical and ended up, basically, misspeaking in this media age.
He has a point in a way. Segregating men and women in clubs WOULD prevent harassment and assault in those clubs. The Shakers did that…Perhaps the real issue is that women historically did not have access to the connections these clubs (used to) offer.
Take a look at country clubs north of Boston. I know one where the wives are still put in parentheses after the male members, and as Mrs. Charles or George or whatever. These are the same environments that Porcellian club members used to favor after college. Some still do. Dark wood, leather, fireplace, even the décor is geared to men.
Most sexual harassment and assaults occur in the dorms- 84%? Something like that. The issue of gender in these clubs is more complicated. Sure, one could argue that equal opportunity means everyone should be able to join clubs. But perhaps a better way is to make them irrelevant to paths of power.
Meanwhile, Storey has had a lesson on media spin and the need for scripted presentations. Everyone wants to hate Harvard but do it for a good reason, not this.